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Does the ap - affect the haywire results?

Is it -3 or -2 with a glancing hit?

Yes, I believe it would.
-3 for a glancing hit.

I don't see why it would. It's a separate hit, and does not have AP -.

I have to agree with Willy, there's nothing in the rules for the Voltaic staff that tells us to ignore the "AP-".

Sure there is.
The AP applies to pens/glances from the staff hit. Then you roll for the haywire affect. It's separate.

rigled2 wrote:Sure there is.
The AP applies to pens/glances from the staff hit. Then you roll for the haywire affect. It's separate.

It's my understanding of the rules (in other words my opinion on how it works ) that it doesn't quite work that way. My understanding is that if you shoot a vehicle, and managed 3 hits of the 4 you roll to see if haywire takes effect, then you roll your armor pen roll. Now there is no distinction made in the damage chart of the BRB for Haywire weapons. That means that since the attack comes from a weapon with AP-, even if it's a special rule that gives the glance or pen, the attack is still made with a weapon that is AP-. The exact quote is, "Penetrating and glancing hits inflicted by a weapon shown as ‘AP–’ suffer a modifier of -1 to the roll on the Vehicle Damage table." Ask, is the penetrating and/or glancing hit inflicted by a weapon shown as AP-? If so, which is the case for the Voltaic staff, then it suffers the additional -1 to the damage chart.

If it works the same way as an Eldar haywire blaster the weapon attack is separate from the haywire effect. i'd defer to a DE player on this, but I believe that's how it works. If that's the case then the haywire isn't linked to the causing weapon's AP rating.

Definitely gets the -1 on the chart. Haywire affects the damage result no more or no less than any other weapon type (Gauss, Melta, Rending, Tesla, Blast, Poisoned, etc.).



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Randall Turner wrote:If it works the same way as an Eldar haywire blaster the weapon attack is separate from the haywire effect.

The Haywire effect is definitely NOT separate from the weapon attack. With the Voltaic Staff you roll to hit, then roll on the haywire chart to determine if there's a pen or glance.

Well, now, again - if it works the same way as the DE weapon, that's not quite the case, is it. You'd roll to hit four times, then you'd roll with a S5, AP - for each hit to see the result. May end up with penetrations or glances, especially against those same DE vehicles, for instance. You could have up to four penetrations if you get lucky, all then rolling on the damage chart with a -1 modifier due to AP - type weapon.

THEN, you'd roll on the Haywire chart. On a 1, nada, on a 2-5, glance, 6, pen. It's a separate attack. Does it get the -1 modifier? You seem certain it does, I'm not sharing that sentiment. Because, reading from the BRB page 61, we see the phraseology: "Penetrating and glancing hits inflicted by a weapon shown as 'AP -' suffer a modifier of -1..." But, these aren't hits inflicted by the weapon (as was the case for the four shots in my first paragraph) - they're glances and/or pens INDEPENDENT OF hits, called for by the Haywire special rule.

Did the Haywire rule get invoked by the Voltaic Staff hitting? Sure did. But the glances and pens inflicted by those hits are separate things, already addressed before we roll for Haywire.

Randall Turner wrote:Well, now, again - if it works the same way as the DE weapon, that's not quite the case, is it. You'd roll to hit four times, then you'd roll with a S5, AP - for each hit to see the result. May end up with penetrations or glances, especially against those same DE vehicles, for instance. You could have up to four penetrations if you get lucky, all then rolling on the damage chart with a -1 modifier due to AP - type weapon.

THEN, you'd roll on the Haywire chart. On a 1, nada, on a 2-5, glance, 6, pen. It's a separate attack. Does it get the -1 modifier? You seem certain it does, I'm not sharing that sentiment. Because, reading from the BRB page 61, we see the phraseology: "Penetrating and glancing hits inflicted by a weapon shown as 'AP -' suffer a modifier of -1..." But, these aren't hits inflicted by the weapon (as was the case for the four shots in my first paragraph) - they're glances and/or pens INDEPENDENT OF hits, called for by the Haywire special rule.

Did the Haywire rule get invoked by the Voltaic Staff hitting? Sure did. But the glances and pens inflicted by those hits are separate things, already addressed before we roll for Haywire.

The only way the Haywire special rule can have an affect from the Voltaic Staff, is if the vehicle is hit by a shot from the Voltaic Staff. Which is an 'AP -' weapon. Any hit by an 'AP -' weapon is modified by -1 on the vehicle damage table.

Edit: Spelling

ToBeWilly wrote:The only way the Haywire special rule can have an affect from the Voltaic Staff, is if the vehicle is hit by a shot from the Voltaic Staff. Which is an 'AP -' weapon. Any hit by an 'AP -' weapon is modified by -1 on the vehicle damage table.

But the Haywire effect isn't a hit by an 'AP -' weapon.

Randall Turner wrote: But, these aren't hits inflicted by the weapon (as was the case for the four shots in my first paragraph) - they're glances and/or pens INDEPENDENT OF hits, called for by the Haywire special rule.

Did the Haywire rule get invoked by the Voltaic Staff hitting? Sure did. But the glances and pens inflicted by those hits are separate things, already addressed before we roll for Haywire.

The thing you're missing is that it doesn't matter if the haywire in this instance is what caused the glance/pen. The only thing the rulebook asks, is the weapon that inflicted the weapon AP-? It doesn't ask, was it a special rule that inflicted the hit? Using the haywire grenades from the DE codex is a great example as those have no AP listed (which is NOT the same as AP-), that means the answer in that case is no, the glance/pen was not inflicted by a weapon that is AP-. It doesn't matter if it is a special rule that inflicts the penetrating/glancing hit (You don't see a meltagun only getting AP1 if it penetrates with a single die), the weapon itself has AP- which is all that matters.

Randall Turner wrote:But the Haywire effect isn't a hit by an 'AP -' weapon.

Codex: Necrons, page 85, under Voltaic Staff:
Haywire: Vehicles hit by a shot from the Voltaic staff suffer a...
Underline added by me.

Every hit from the Voltaic staff has a chance to 'Haywire'. But, it is a hit from the staff that causes it. Which is 'AP -".

Guys, you're not following - the glances/pens from the Haywire special rule are NOT CAUSED BY HITS. From ANY weapon. They're caused by a roll on he Haywire table.

The roll on the Haywire table is caused by any hit from the Voltaic Staff - but it's the *Haywire check* that's caused by any hit, NOT the glance or penetration.

Randall Turner wrote:Guys, you're not following - the glances/pens from the Haywire special rule are NOT CAUSED BY HITS. From ANY weapon. They're caused by a roll on he Haywire table.

The roll on the Haywire table is caused by any hit from the Voltaic Staff - but it's the *Haywire check* that's caused by any hit, NOT the glance or penetration.

What piece of wargear gives the haywire check? The Voltaic staff. What is the prerequisite to take a "haywire check?" Hits from the voltaic staff, caused by shooting. What causes the glance/pen? The haywire check, from a shooting attack by a weapon with AP-.

The haywire affect does NOT work on the melee attack of a Cryptek, it is specifically a shooting only effect here. You're trying to interject a question that isn't there, "Was the glance or pen caused by a special rule?" That question doesn't matter, it only matters if it was from a hit caused by a weapon with AP-. You may only take the haywire check on hits caused by the shooting attack of a Voltaic staff. As I pointed out before the AP- doesn't matter if it is from an armor penetration roll or a haywire special rule roll. It is a byproduct of a shooting attack made with an AP- weapon.

Dragoon, I have to nit-pick your *previous* post to make my point, sorry.

Lone Dragoon wrote:The thing you're missing is that it doesn't matter if the haywire in this instance is what caused the glance/pen. The only thing the rulebook asks, is the weapon that inflicted the weapon AP-? It doesn't ask, was it a special rule that inflicted the hit?

I highlighted what I think is a typo there, but the rulebook asks is the weapon that inflicted the hit AP '-'. If it's a special rule that inflicts the hit, the AP '-' rule simply does not apply.

Using the haywire grenades from the DE codex is a great example as those have no AP listed (which is NOT the same as AP-),

The reason Haywire grenades have no AP listed is that the Haywire special rule glances/pens are inflicted independent of hits. And yes, Haywire grenades having no AP rating is a great example, it illustrates that the Haywire effect is a special rule outside of normal AP weaponry.

The haywire rule doesn't cause a glncing or penetrating hit anymore than the rending rule does, it just alters the procedure to determine whether a glancing or penetrating hit is achieved. If things worked that way, then AP1 wouldn't mean anything when coupled with the melta rule.


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Randall Turner wrote: And yes, Haywire grenades having no AP rating is a great example, it illustrates that the Haywire effect is a special rule outside of normal AP weaponry.

Or maybe it's that grenades (and melta bombs for that matter) have no AP value, as they're used in CC.

Lordhat wrote:The haywire rule doesn't cause a glncing or penetrating hit anymore than the rending rule does, it just alters the procedure to determine whether a glancing or penetrating hit is achieved. If things worked that way, then AP1 wouldn't mean anything when coupled with the melta rule.

Well, let's look at some rule words. I thought the Voltaic Staff worked like the Haywire Blaster, as I'd mentioned. Now I'm not so sure.

Let's look at the Haywire Blaster, it's got a few more "words" about resolving the preceding normal attack first. From the DE codex: "If a Haywire blaster hits a vehicle, resolve its effects as normal. Then roll a further D6. On a 1, nothing happens. On a 2-5, the vehicle takes a glancing hit. On a 6, it takes a penetrating hit."

Compare to Necron Voltaic Staff's "Haywire" rule: "Vehicles hit by a shot from the voltaic staff suffer a glancing hit on a 2-5, and a penetrating hit on a 6."

Now, there's maybe some wiggle-room about other stuff, but arguing that "the haywire rule doesn't cause a glancing or penetrating hit anymore than the rending rule does" is obviously contradicted by the rules. (Both of them.) Or is it?

Correct me if I'm wrong, but you're maintaining here that the Voltaic Staff doesn't work like the Haywire Blaster at all, and instead, for each hit on a vehicle, rolls for Haywire effect? I was under the impression that, like the Haywire Blaster, it only got one Haywire roll. Strict reading of the rule here, perhaps that's not the case. Perhaps the Voltaic Staff doesn't "resolve its effects as normal" first. I'm not certain that means it applies the AP '-' modifier, though.

Agh. Good thread, but it's making my head hurt.

I think it's one of two things:

1) The Haywire roll is once total per 4-shot volley, and doesn't get the AP '-' modifier.
2) The Haywire roll is once per hit, and may very well get the AP '-' modifier.

Randall Turner wrote:
I think it's one of two things:

1) The Haywire roll is once total per 4-shot volley, and doesn't get the AP '-' modifier.
2) The Haywire roll is once per hit, and may very well get the AP '-' modifier.

In light of the fact that the Voltaic staff doesn't have the 'clarifications' that the DE weapon does (and I don't have access to the DE dex right now) I would have to say it's number 2. Whether this is intentional or accidental we can't say, and really can't look forward to a clarification any time soon (6th ed due out shortly, and all that). And yes, I'm maintaining that you would roll the Haywire for each hit, instead of rolling for pen normally.

Well, let's lay it all out. (And I'll say this now - before this thread I knew how to use a Voltaic Staff, now, not so much.)

Voltaic Staff may or may not resolve "normal" attacks before applying Haywire.
Voltaic Staff may apply Haywire once per 4-shot volley, or once per hit.
Voltaic Staff's Haywire may suffer the -1 die roll mod on the "results" table, and may not.

That gives us a total of 8 possible ways to calculate it's effect. For brevity, the two "extremes" -
1) Voltaic Staff does not resolve "normal" attacks against a vehicle but instead, if hitting once per 4-shot volley, rolls once on the Haywire table, suffering the -1 die roll mod to the Haywire glance/pen.
8) Voltaic Staff first resolves all shots "normally" then, for each hit, rolls on the Haywire table, with no mods to the Haywire glance/pen.

These are so enormously different and there are just soo many intermediate combos that I'm going to take a different tack here and PM Mr. Alex Fennell, who included a couple of these staffs in his Adepticon list, and ask him how it was played there.

Lordhat wrote:And yes, I'm maintaining that you would roll the Haywire for each hit, instead of rolling for pen normally.

You have any basis for that?
You have no rule telling you not to roll to pen normally.
Following the rules it'd be one Haywire per volley - since the trigger is "a hit".

Hmm, wouldn't "one or more" trigger single haywire hits per volley, but "a hit" trigger haywire hits for "a hit" (which might be each hit - not perfectly clear, but leans towards each).

So on a 2-5, you get a result at -3 (almost no effect possible on GK vehicles, yay?) and on a 6 you get a result at -1; I guess that makes sense.

There is literally absolutely no wiggle room as to whether or not 'haywire' hits get the -1 modifier. Voltaic Staffs have a special rule that their hits inflict Haywire hits. Any glancing or penetrating hit caused by a weapon that is AP- get a -1 to their damage roll. There is no logical way to try to say that hits using the Haywire special rule in this case are not being caused by the Voltaic Staff.

The *only* legitimate question is how many Haywire hits the weapon can generate, which in my humble opinion is done one per hit, on top of whatever normal damage the hits inflict with their regular strength as well.

yakface wrote:There is no logical way to try to say that hits using the Haywire special rule in this case are not being caused by the Voltaic Staff.

I disagree with that, but have 0 dogs in this fight as I play Tyranids (so have no vehicles to Haywire nor any Haywire effects).

I just don't see how the Haywire effect is tied to the weapon profile at all - it doesn't use the STR to Pen.

jwolf wrote:Hmm, wouldn't "one or more" trigger single haywire hits per volley, but "a hit" trigger haywire hits for "a hit" (which might be each hit - not perfectly clear, but leans towards each).

So on a 2-5, you get a result at -3 (almost no effect possible on GK vehicles, yay?) and on a 6 you get a result at -1; I guess that makes sense.

This is precisely my understanding too.

1-4 hits at S5 AP-.

For each of those hits, you roll again.

1's - nothing
2-5 is a glancing hit. -2 for glancing and -1 for AP-. So -3 on your damage table roll.
6's are a penetrating hit at -1 for AP-. So -1 on the damage table.

I'm of the opinion these are one of those sleeper weapons that people will take some time to realize just how good they are.

yakface wrote:
There is literally absolutely no wiggle room as to whether or not 'haywire' hits get the -1 modifier. Voltaic Staffs have a special rule that their hits inflict Haywire hits. Any glancing or penetrating hit caused by a weapon that is AP- get a -1 to their damage roll. There is no logical way to try to say that hits using the Haywire special rule in this case are not being caused by the Voltaic Staff.

The *only* legitimate question is how many Haywire hits the weapon can generate, which in my humble opinion is done one per hit, on top of whatever normal damage the hits inflict with their regular strength as well.

So if I fired at a vehicle with the staff and hit all 4 times I could possibly get 8 results on the vehicle damage table? i was under the impression that the haywire replaces the regular roll for penetration.

Nemesor Dave wrote:This is precisely my understanding too.

1-4 hits at S5 AP-.

For each of those hits, you roll again.

1's - nothing
2-5 is a glancing hit. -2 for glancing and -1 for AP-. So -3 on your damage table roll.
6's are a penetrating hit at -1 for AP-. So -1 on the damage table.

I'm of the opinion these are one of those sleeper weapons that people will take some time to realize just how good they are.

The first time I read the Haywire special rule, I thought the same thing. I believe I said as much earlier in this thread. But, after rereading it, I now believe, you only roll once for Haywire, it doesn't seem to matter how many hits there are, as long as there is at least one. "Vehicles hit by a shot from the voltaic staff suffer a...".

rigeld2 wrote:

yakface wrote:There is no logical way to try to say that hits using the Haywire special rule in this case are not being caused by the Voltaic Staff.

I disagree with that, but have 0 dogs in this fight as I play Tyranids (so have no vehicles to Haywire nor any Haywire effects).

I just don't see how the Haywire effect is tied to the weapon profile at all - it doesn't use the STR to Pen.

I'm on the other side of the fence - I have too many dogs in the fight, I desperately need to figure out a *reliable* way to stop GK transports. I can make a very good logical argument against using the weapon's statline, but if I take too hard a stance it's self-serving.

I will make the observation that once again, the Necron codex presents us with a situation without clear precedent - no other multi-ROF or AP '-' weapon exists with the associated Haywire special rule. (If you like to argue, play Necrons!)

ToBeWilly wrote:

Nemesor Dave wrote:This is precisely my understanding too.

1-4 hits at S5 AP-.

For each of those hits, you roll again.

1's - nothing
2-5 is a glancing hit. -2 for glancing and -1 for AP-. So -3 on your damage table roll.
6's are a penetrating hit at -1 for AP-. So -1 on the damage table.

I'm of the opinion these are one of those sleeper weapons that people will take some time to realize just how good they are.

The first time I read the Haywire special rule, I thought the same thing. I believe I said as much earlier in this thread. But, after rereading it, I now believe, you only roll once for Haywire, it doesn't seem to matter how many hits there are, as long as there is at least one. "Vehicles hit by a shot from the voltaic staff suffer a...".

Which is the same wording that the Venerable rule uses when allowing re-rolls. "If a Venerable Dreadnought suffers a Glancing or Penetrating hit..." In this case the "a" in the sentence has always been read as "any and all". Why is it different for the Haywire rule?

Lordhat wrote:

ToBeWilly wrote:

Nemesor Dave wrote:This is precisely my understanding too.

1-4 hits at S5 AP-.

For each of those hits, you roll again.

1's - nothing
2-5 is a glancing hit. -2 for glancing and -1 for AP-. So -3 on your damage table roll.
6's are a penetrating hit at -1 for AP-. So -1 on the damage table.

I'm of the opinion these are one of those sleeper weapons that people will take some time to realize just how good they are.

The first time I read the Haywire special rule, I thought the same thing. I believe I said as much earlier in this thread. But, after rereading it, I now believe, you only roll once for Haywire, it doesn't seem to matter how many hits there are, as long as there is at least one. "Vehicles hit by a shot from the voltaic staff suffer a...".

Which is the same wording that the Venerable rule uses when allowing re-rolls. "If a Venerable Dreadnought suffers a Glancing or Penetrating hit..." In this case the "a" in the sentence has always been read as "any and all". Why is it different for the Haywire rule?

I don't see them being similar. A Dreadnought's Venerable rule seems more concerned with the roll on the Vehicle Damage table. Not the possible hits that caused the roll. The voltaic staff's Haywire rule is only concerned with if the shots hit, not how many hit.