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With the release of the new dakka jet people have been saying by giving it red paint job, it can move 13'' get a 4+ cover save and still fire all its guns. But does that mean that mean that any fast unit with red paint job can do that 13'' inch move, or have they got it wrong?

Any unit with RPJ can do a 13" move, sure.

But only skimmers can claim a cover save from moving Flat Out, and a RPJ Dakkajet moving 13" is still on Cruising speed. No cover save, sorry.

There's already a thread on this subject:
http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/451843.page

An *extensive* thread on this, as shown above. Bring a raincoat. And gumboots.

Unfortunately, it's not nearly as cut-and-dry as assaulting a vehicle that moved 7".

And that one still gets bloody too

Spetulhu wrote:Any unit with RPJ can do a 13" move, sure.

But only skimmers can claim a cover save from moving Flat Out, and a RPJ Dakkajet moving 13" is still on Cruising speed. No cover save, sorry.

All fast vehicles ever moving 13" are always moving at flat out speed, no exceptions. Red paint does not change anything about that.

You get a 4+ cover save for moving over 12" which is a distance measurement NOT a movement class.

Cruising/Combat speeds are movement classifications, not specific distances.



RPJ also says you don't suffer any penelties for the extra movement. This can also be interperted to say "I get all the benifits but none of the bad stuff", which directly translates to "I get a 4+ cover save for moving over 12" but because of RPJ I also count as moving at Cruising speed and so can shoot"

This looks like it's a contested issue. If anyone uses these models, I'd ask the organizers of any event you are going to just to make sure they are going to rule the way you'd like before you show up.

movement class = actual distance traveled so yes from my understanding you get the cover save and still fire... but yea others have different ideas most seem to agree that this is what it says but that for the cost it cna't possibly be right

Jimsolo wrote:This looks like it's a contested issue. If anyone uses these models, I'd ask the organizers of any event you are going to just to make sure they are going to rule the way you'd like before you show up.

From a rules view it really isn't.

If you check the threads, you basically have the rules saying that it works, and people thinking that it doesn't work because it seems wrong to get the best of two worlds.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Grey Templar wrote:You get a 4+ cover save for moving over 12" which is a distance measurement NOT a movement class.

Cruising/Combat speeds are movement classifications, not specific distances.



RPJ also says you don't suffer any penelties for the extra movement. This can also be interperted to say "I get all the benifits but none of the bad stuff", which directly translates to "I get a 4+ cover save for moving over 12" but because of RPJ I also count as moving at Cruising speed and so can shoot"

Skimmer rules say you get a cover save for moving flat out though. Flat out is defined as moving more than 12", and RPJ doesn't change a thing about that. Otherwise you are correct.

It does work but only if you move more than 12" and 13" or less, it gives the vehicle a chance to survive considering otherwise las cannons glance automatically and pen on a 2+ vs the AV 10.

There's no minimum movement to claim Obscured, correct?

...which means you could move the vehicle around in a circle 13", returning it to its original position, fire all your weapons, and claim the obscured save.

"A skimmer that...has moved flat out in its last Movement phase counts as obscured...when fired at." (BGB p71)

"A fast vehicle going flat out moves more than 12"..." (BGB p70)

The second quote is the clincher for me. A vehicle going flat out moves more than 12" - but this does not necessarily mean that the opposite is true. A vehicle that is moving more than 12" is not necessarily moving flat out. You need to declare a flat-out move in order to claim the Obscured save.

A fruit that is a banana is yellow. This does not mean that all yellow fruit are automatically bananas.

Unless you can quote a single rule that requires you to ever declare any movement speed for a regular move, you don't declare movement speed.

It's that simple. I wish people would stop arguing based on that imaginary requirement every single time RPJ comes up.

If bananas are the only yellow fruit, all yellow fruits are bananas. Fast vehicles can not move more than 12" without moving flat out.

Jidmah wrote:Fast vehicles can not move more than 12" without moving flat out.

Yes they can.
A fast vehicle can move 18" on a road and still count as moving at cruising speed for all purposes.

BRB FAQ P4 wrote:Q: Does a vehicle that has used its extra move for being
on a road to move over 12” count as having moved at
cruising speed for all purposes, for example the
embarking and disembarking of troops? (p57)
A: Yes.

I'm still seeing Flat Out as being the penalty avoided by he RPJ. And for 5pts that seems about right.
My Ork bomber arrived in the post this morning, personally I'd love to get a reliable cover save on it.
If the only requirement for the cover save was going move than 12" I'd be supporting it, but it also requires moving Flat Out, and we're all claiming Cruising Speed here (for the shooting).

Jidmah wrote:Unless you can quote a single rule that requires you to ever declare any movement speed for a regular move, you don't declare movement speed.

It's that simple. I wish people would stop arguing based on that imaginary requirement every single time RPJ comes up.

If bananas are the only yellow fruit, all yellow fruits are bananas. Fast vehicles can not move more than 12" without moving flat out.

True enough, but by the same token, you cannot cite a rule that states that vehicles moving more than 12" are moving flat out.

And, as mentioned, flat out is not the only way you can move more than 12". Roads are another way, as are Star Engines (though they're obviously different). RPJ is just another type of yellow fruit.

Considering that they arn't all that hard to kill even with the 4+ obscurement it seems only fair that they get it.

Especially since they compete with Deffkoptas for slots, remember that point cost isn't every thing. FoC slot is a cost too.

grendel083 wrote:

Jidmah wrote:Fast vehicles can not move more than 12" without moving flat out.

Yes they can.
A fast vehicle can move 18" on a road and still count as moving at cruising speed for all purposes.

BRB FAQ P4 wrote:Q: Does a vehicle that has used its extra move for being
on a road to move over 12” count as having moved at
cruising speed for all purposes, for example the
embarking and disembarking of troops? (p57)
A: Yes.

I'm still seeing Flat Out as being the penalty avoided by he RPJ. And for 5pts that seems about right.
My Ork bomber arrived in the post this morning, personally I'd love to get a reliable cover save on it.
If the only requirement for the cover save was going move than 12" I'd be supporting it, but it also requires moving Flat Out, and we're all claiming Cruising Speed here (for the shooting).

Note the distinct lack of "for all purposes" in RPJ and the usage of "could", i.e. the option. Both rules are explicitly different.
In addition, without that exact FAQ moving on a road would make fast vehicle move flat out.

Cheexsta wrote:True enough, but by the same token, you cannot cite a rule that states that vehicles moving more than 12" are moving flat out.

In his turn, a player may move any of his units [...] up to their maximum movement distance. (BRB pg. 11)

The distance a vehicle moves influences the amount of weapons it may fire and how easy a target the vehicle will be if assaulted, as described later. (BRB pg. 57)

A fast vehicle going flat out moves more than 12" and up to 18" (BRB pg. 70)

So either a vehicle is moving flat out by moving it over 12", or no vehicle may ever move flat out. You are not allowed to determine the speed category of a vehicle before you have moved.

And, as mentioned, flat out is not the only way you can move more than 12". Roads are another way, as are Star Engines (though they're obviously different). RPJ is just another type of yellow fruit.

Star engines are not used during movement, roads have explicit exceptions to the rule. RPJ does not.

Counts as, means counts as, if you moved 13" you count as moving 12" so you didn't really move 13" inches so no cover save.

Kharrak wrote:There's no minimum movement to claim Obscured, correct?

...which means you could move the vehicle around in a circle 13", returning it to its original position, fire all your weapons, and claim the obscured save.

Your movement distance is the distance you end up away from your original starting position at the end of the move. No one cares how many times you pivot or drive in circles.

Nitros14 wrote:

Kharrak wrote:There's no minimum movement to claim Obscured, correct?

...which means you could move the vehicle around in a circle 13", returning it to its original position, fire all your weapons, and claim the obscured save.

Your movement distance is the distance you end up away from your original starting position at the end of the move. No one cares how many times you pivot or drive in circles.

That's only true for assaults. You're absolutely allowed to fly in circles and go flat out.

rigeld2 wrote:That's only true for assaults. You're absolutely allowed to fly in circles and go flat out.

LOL, picture that. Fits orks nicely.

General_Chaos wrote:Counts as, means counts as, if you moved 13" you count as moving 12" so you didn't really move 13" inches so no cover save.

Irrelevant. Red paint job vehicles only have the option to count as moving 12" for one single purpose: ignoring penalties. You do not have permission to count as moving 12" for anything else.

Jidmah wrote:

General_Chaos wrote:Counts as, means counts as, if you moved 13" you count as moving 12" so you didn't really move 13" inches so no cover save.

Irrelevant. Red paint job vehicles only have the option to count as moving 12" for one single purpose: ignoring penalties. You do not have permission to count as moving 12" for anything else.

exactly this.

if specifies ignores penalties not ignores the extra inch completely. without red paint job ork vehicles would b e in trouble it is the reason the upgrade is so chepa it is practically a requirment on out battlewagons and now dakka jets... dakka jets are ok and i have 2 now so i'll be using them btu if it wasn't for red paint job they'd never see the field AV10 means even basic bolters can down them easily. sure the super shooters are good but without a cover save they'd be blown up turn 1 ... they still aren't really that good compared to deff koptas of rokkit buggies I mostly got them hoping flyers will get buffed in 6.0

note even INAT says thi is how it works. and i always go by inat if it isn't in faq. I bring a copy of inat on my phone and will gladly look up things for people and i woukldn't take part in a tourney where inat wasn't used because then there is to much room for rules arguments

So I guess if you get immobilized or wreck during your movement can ignore that too. Hell why not just blanket the whole thing, it doesn't say just movement. I think getting exploded by those long fangs is a penalty, my red paint ignores that.

General_Chaos wrote:So I guess if you get immobilized or wreck during your movement can ignore that too. Hell why not just blanket the whole thing, it doesn't say just movement. I think getting exploded by those long fangs is a penalty, my red paint ignores that.

Yeah, that's a sane way to argue.
"Let's take something that Red Paint Job has absolutely no relation to and say that it ignores it!"

Good plan. I'm sure that'll go far.

I'm pretty sure RPJ makes you immune to all bad things by RAW*.



* Not Rules as Written, but the old Eddie Murphy performance. So if you have a Red Paint Job, Eddie Murphy can't hurt you and it's safe to watch Dave. If you don't have a RPJ, beware of eye bleeds.

General_Chaos wrote:So I guess if you get immobilized or wreck during your movement can ignore that too. Hell why not just blanket the whole thing, it doesn't say just movement. I think getting exploded by those long fangs is a penalty, my red paint ignores that.

It does, in fact, relate to movement.

Red Paint says you ignore penalties in regards to moving that extra inch. Being immobilized / exploded has no relation to this.

General_Chaos wrote:So I guess if you get immobilized or wreck during your movement can ignore that too. Hell why not just blanket the whole thing, it doesn't say just movement. I think getting exploded by those long fangs is a penalty, my red paint ignores that.

Unless you magically explode for moving 13" instead of 12", that's not a penalty incurred by moving an extra inch.

I'm really flattened about how many people have an opinion on RPJ without having read the actual rule. Such nonsense really doesn't belong in YMDC at all.

As a new Ork player I now see the point of a RPJ, thank you all for the clarification and saving this argument form happening at my gaming table.