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Pg 81: Flyer rules - "Shots resolved at a Zooming Flyer can only be resolved as snap shots"

pg 13 Snap shots "any shooting attack that does not use ballistic skill ... cannot be 'fired' as a snap shot"

So it seems pretty clear that the Death Ray can't be fired as a Snap shot, meaning that if I Evaded on the previous turn, or I'm Crew Shaken, it can't fire. This much is completely unambiguous.

What I'm getting in Internet Arguments over is what happens when there's a Flyer under the line drawn by the Death Ray.

I'm not targeting the flyer, so there's nothing stopping me from firing the weapon by RAW. My belief is that by RAW the flyer will still take the hit even while Zooming. Stopping me from drawing the line would have to happen when I try to fire death ray at a flying target, which never actually happens... I'm just picking an arbitrary point on the table. What do you guys think?

Sounds like you are right to me. Yet another loophole that benefits Necrons, what a shock.

The Snap Shot rules on page 13 specifically say that any shooting attack which does not use BS to resolve a hit may not snap shot.

Death Rays are out. If you're shooting at something else and the Flyer happens to be under the line, you don't hit the flyer, and are not making a snap shot, since you could only stand a chance of hitting the flyer with a snap shot.

kjolnir wrote:The Snap Shot rules on page 13 specifically say that any shooting attack which does not use BS to resolve a hit may not snap shot.

Death Rays are out. If you're shooting at something else and the Flyer happens to be under the line, you don't hit the flyer, and are not making a snap shot, since you could only stand a chance of hitting the flyer with a snap shot.

That's the thing though. From a procedural perspective I don't know if I'm snap shooting or not until I target a zooming flyer. The Death Ray doesn't care what it's shooting at. There's no "pick a target then draw a line" thing going on... I'm picking an arbitrary point on the board then drawing a line. By the time the line is drawn I'm past the point where the game knows that there needs to be a snap shot.

The only way I'll hit the "Is this shot resolved as a snap shot" check by RAW, unless I can find some contradicting evidence, is if I'm Shaken, Stunned, or Evading.

Page 12, the Shooting Sequence sidebar:
1 Choose Target
2 Roll to Hit
3 Roll to Wound (or penetrate)
4 Allocate and Remove

1 And 2 simply do not apply to the Death Ray, because the specific rules in the Codex directly contradict page 12, and so they supersede the normal shooting sequence according to "Basic vs. Advanced" on page 7. Unfortunately it is in these steps that the game "knows" that I'm shooting at a "valid" target, as range and LoS checks are detailed in those steps. Since there's no way to determine whether or not I'm firing a snap shot until after the line is drawn, it would appear that the restriction can't apply to the death ray because steps 3 and 4 are not modified by whether or not snap shots were fired in previous steps.

Ostrakon wrote:

kjolnir wrote:The Snap Shot rules on page 13 specifically say that any shooting attack which does not use BS to resolve a hit may not snap shot.

Death Rays are out. If you're shooting at something else and the Flyer happens to be under the line, you don't hit the flyer, and are not making a snap shot, since you could only stand a chance of hitting the flyer with a snap shot.

That's the thing though. From a procedural perspective I don't know if I'm snap shooting or not until I target a zooming flyer. The Death Ray doesn't care what it's shooting at. There's no "pick a target then draw a line" thing going on... I'm picking an arbitrary point on the board then drawing a line. By the time the line is drawn I'm past the point where the game knows that there needs to be a snap shot.

The only way I'll hit the "Is this shot resolved as a snap shot" check by RAW, unless I can find some contradicting evidence, is if I'm Shaken, Stunned, or Evading.

Page 12, the Shooting Sequence sidebar:
1 Choose Target
2 Roll to Hit
3 Roll to Wound (or penetrate)
4 Allocate and Remove

1 And 2 simply do not apply to the Death Ray, because the specific rules in the Codex directly contradict page 12, and so they supersede the normal shooting sequence according to "Basic vs. Advanced" on page 7. Unfortunately it is in these steps that the game "knows" that I'm shooting at a "valid" target, as range and LoS checks are detailed in those steps. Since there's no way to determine whether or not I'm firing a snap shot until after the line is drawn, it would appear that the restriction can't apply to the death ray because steps 3 and 4 are not modified by whether or not snap shots were fired in previous steps.

In order to hit a zooming/swooping flyer, you would have to either make a Snap Shot or use the Skyfire rule.

Weapons that don't make BS rolls to hit cannot use Snap Shot.

Therefore, unless you are using the Skyfire rule, the Death Ray cannot hit a zooming or swooping flyer. If you weren't using the Skyfire rule, then you'd hit everything but the flyer.

kjolnir wrote:

Ostrakon wrote:

kjolnir wrote:The Snap Shot rules on page 13 specifically say that any shooting attack which does not use BS to resolve a hit may not snap shot.

Death Rays are out. If you're shooting at something else and the Flyer happens to be under the line, you don't hit the flyer, and are not making a snap shot, since you could only stand a chance of hitting the flyer with a snap shot.

That's the thing though. From a procedural perspective I don't know if I'm snap shooting or not until I target a zooming flyer. The Death Ray doesn't care what it's shooting at. There's no "pick a target then draw a line" thing going on... I'm picking an arbitrary point on the board then drawing a line. By the time the line is drawn I'm past the point where the game knows that there needs to be a snap shot.

The only way I'll hit the "Is this shot resolved as a snap shot" check by RAW, unless I can find some contradicting evidence, is if I'm Shaken, Stunned, or Evading.

Page 12, the Shooting Sequence sidebar:
1 Choose Target
2 Roll to Hit
3 Roll to Wound (or penetrate)
4 Allocate and Remove

1 And 2 simply do not apply to the Death Ray, because the specific rules in the Codex directly contradict page 12, and so they supersede the normal shooting sequence according to "Basic vs. Advanced" on page 7. Unfortunately it is in these steps that the game "knows" that I'm shooting at a "valid" target, as range and LoS checks are detailed in those steps. Since there's no way to determine whether or not I'm firing a snap shot until after the line is drawn, it would appear that the restriction can't apply to the death ray because steps 3 and 4 are not modified by whether or not snap shots were fired in previous steps.

In order to hit a zooming/swooping flyer, you would have to either make a Snap Shot or use the Skyfire rule.

Weapons that don't make BS rolls to hit cannot use Snap Shot.

Therefore, unless you are using the Skyfire rule, the Death Ray cannot hit a zooming or swooping flyer. If you weren't using the Skyfire rule, then you'd hit everything but the flyer.

Your argument isn't making much sense here.

Death Ray, all the models under the line are automatically hit. You can only FIRE at a flyer with a snapshot. Hitting=/=firing.

Yes, Death Ray can hit it, as you are not specifically targeting the flyer and thus are not making a snapshot.

It also says in the flyer rules that all template weapons cannot hit a zooming flyer. Death Ray is a template weapon isn't it? The line is a template.

Nitros14 wrote:It also says in the flyer rules that all template weapons cannot hit a zooming flyer. Death Ray is a template weapon isn't it? The line is a template.

Death Ray is type Heavy, not template.

DarkCorsair wrote:

Your argument isn't making much sense here.

Death Ray, all the models under the line are automatically hit. You can only FIRE at a flyer with a snapshot. Hitting=/=firing.

Incorrect. You can't hit it with templates that scatter, ether.

DarkCorsair wrote:Yes, Death Ray can hit it, as you are not specifically targeting the flyer and thus are not making a snapshot.

It makes plenty of sense. Shooting attacks that do not require a BS to resolve cannot make Snap Shots.

If you are not making a Snap Shot and do not have the Skyfire rule, you can't shoot at a swooping or zooming flyer. You can't hit it, either, even with a template scatter. You can hit everything else, even with a template scatter, just not the flyer itself.

There is some pretty hefty logic kung fu needed to come to the conclusion that a Death Ray is the only non-BS shooting attack in the game that can hit a flyer.

"Shots resolved at a Zooming Flyer can only be resolved as Snap Shots"

No shot is made, it's simply hit by it.

DarkCorsair wrote:"Shots resolved at a Zooming Flyer can only be resolved as Snap Shots"

No shot is made, it's simply hit by it.

A shot IS made. You're just hitting automatically. Just like a flamer template. Using your logic, I wouldn't be shooting because I wasn't making a to-hit roll. That doesn't stand up to basic scrutiny.

Or are you trying to make the argument that the beam from a Death Ray isn't being shot by the Death Ray?

I'm not sure I understand the point of this thread. The Doom Scythe is a flyer, meaning at the start of each shooting phase it has the option of using the skyfire special rule for that turn. This is all on page 81. The 'hard to hit' special rule specifically says that shots resolved at zooming flyers can only be resolved as snap shots unless the model or weapon has the skyfire special rule. Since the Death Ray is not a template, blast or large blast it shoots at the flyers as normal when the Doom Scythe is in skyfire mode.

Therion wrote:I'm not sure I understand the point of this thread. The Doom Scythe is a flyer, meaning at the start of each shooting phase it has the option of using the skyfire special rule for that turn. This is all on page 81. The 'hard to hit' special rule specifically says that shots resolved at zooming flyers can only be resolved as snap shots unless the model or weapon has the skyfire special rule. Since the Death Ray is not a template, blast or large blast it shoots at the flyers as normal when the Doom Scythe is in skyfire mode.

Yep...Skyfire mode means it can hit a swooping or zooming flyer.

It also means it can't hit land units in Skyfire mode even if the line goes over them since land units can only be hit by a Snap Shot from a weapon in Skyfire mode, and weapons that don't have a BS resolution can't Snap Fire.

Shots occur when shooting.

Hits because of movement are not shooting.

There are many things that can hit without a shot or shooting.

editing to add:
Not touching specifics, just the debate.
There really are things that are not shooting and not close combat.
Hits (and wounds!) can occur outside of these even if they rely on parts of their rules.

Therion wrote:I'm not sure I understand the point of this thread. The Doom Scythe is a flyer, meaning at the start of each shooting phase it has the option of using the skyfire special rule for that turn. This is all on page 81. The 'hard to hit' special rule specifically says that shots resolved at zooming flyers can only be resolved as snap shots unless the model or weapon has the skyfire special rule. Since the Death Ray is not a template, blast or large blast it shoots at the flyers as normal when the Doom Scythe is in skyfire mode.

I'm sorry, I should have clarified this is in the case where I'm, say, drawing a line through a ground unit and a flyer at the same time.

I'm not sure the snapshot rule applies to the Death Ray in either case, since we can't know it's a snap shot before we fire it, due to lack of declaration of target.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

kjolnir wrote:

DarkCorsair wrote:"Shots resolved at a Zooming Flyer can only be resolved as Snap Shots"

No shot is made, it's simply hit by it.

A shot IS made. You're just hitting automatically. Just like a flamer template. Using your logic, I wouldn't be shooting because I wasn't making a to-hit roll. That doesn't stand up to basic scrutiny.

Or are you trying to make the argument that the beam from a Death Ray isn't being shot by the Death Ray?

A shot IS made, but you're not shooting AT the flyer. There's where the discrepancy here is. The Death Ray clearly circumvents the normal rules for shooting. I think you're trying to override the advanced, more specific rules from the 'cron Codex with the basic rules for shooting, which is absolutely contrary to "Basic v. Advanced" on page 7.

Do you have any citable rules that suggest the Death Ray is targeting units it hits? Or that it must declare one before shooting?


Automatically Appended Next Post:

kjolnir wrote:

DarkCorsair wrote:

Your argument isn't making much sense here.

Death Ray, all the models under the line are automatically hit. You can only FIRE at a flyer with a snapshot. Hitting=/=firing.

Incorrect. You can't hit it with templates that scatter, ether.

DarkCorsair wrote:Yes, Death Ray can hit it, as you are not specifically targeting the flyer and thus are not making a snapshot.

It makes plenty of sense. Shooting attacks that do not require a BS to resolve cannot make Snap Shots.

If you are not making a Snap Shot and do not have the Skyfire rule, you can't shoot at a swooping or zooming flyer. You can't hit it, either, even with a template scatter. You can hit everything else, even with a template scatter, just not the flyer itself.

There is some pretty hefty logic kung fu needed to come to the conclusion that a Death Ray is the only non-BS shooting attack in the game that can hit a flyer.

You can't hit it with templates or blasts because there are specific rules that say those weapons can't hit flyers. The line drawn by a Death Ray is neither.

And I'm not suggesting it's the only attack like this. Blood Lance comes to mind as a drawn line that does not target units nor uses BS. Same with JotWW but that can't affect vehicles either way.

Page 81, flyers have skyfire rule. So Doom scythes can hit other flyers no problem, even with line attack. Nothing on a beam hitting flying or ground units. So I imagine RAW, it hits both ground and flying units.