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This could very well be accounted for wishlisting; and it may very well be labeled as such. However, I'm in the mindset of curiosity concerning other fellow Daemon players; and of course, those that are pitted up against us in those instances. My discussion initiates below:

I've been an avid Daemon player for about two and a half years; not near as long as others, but I adore them nonetheless; and as such, sometimes allow my mind to drift toward daydreaming about particular units in Codex.

In 5th edition, I only enjoyed a few aspects of my Codex in its downtrodden state; Nurgle. Relatively cheap and annoyingly difficult to kill, I drew joy out of removing one Plaguebearer out of a mass firepower focus on a squad of eight; thanks to Going to Ground in 5th edition. The Great Unclean One...? By far my favorite GD followed by the Bloodthirster. The only reason the GUO was good was in due to his ability to soak up firepower like no one else's business; if you happened to roll good that day. Even then, reality eventually dawned upon me; he's only good because he's rather cheap for what he does, and you're relying on those saves - if applicable - to give you a fighting chance.

Daemons had to FIGHT to stay in a game in 5th. In 6th, I see new hope.

However, I want to focus on the Greater Daemons as intended via the title; the lesser Daemons are not much of a concern to me at the moment, but I wouldn't neglect their mentioning among the conversation if applicable.

I'm sure this has been repetitive for someone to come out and do this, but I'm doing it for the sake of discussion among other Daemon players, and opponents for opinions concerning the GDs. My interpretation is below, separated by the four GD entries, detailing my opinions or perhaps 'guesses' of what is to come/could come:


Keeper of Secrets: In my opinion, concerning stats, I think they're just fine; out of the GDs, his/her/it's stats reflects it almost perfectly. I10, a good number of attacks. A little more survivability or perhaps special rule to help it get across the board quicker would be nice; other than that, it is fine.

Lord of Change: Stats are essentially fine, apart from BS; as Daemons cannot technically have any form of Magic/Psychic powers, I would think this guy could do some shooting shenanigans. Perhaps an abnormal BS. SOMETHING. It is a GD after all, particularly more adept at everything a mortal is...it at least has to show for it. Why not BS10? Everything else almost has 10 as a stat somewhere.

Bloodthirster: In the current edition, he got a nice boost; still a hefty sum of points though. I'd perhaps tweak his strength to 8 instead of 7, and toughness to 7; maybe one more attack too and a wound. However, when this codex is redone, I can easily see this fellow having Rampage/Rage quite easily.

Great Unclean One: My favorite by far, and if not the worst representative of his status versus every other GD. One more wound and FnP and we have ourselves a GUO at an amazing toughness of 6...maybe it is just me, but tweak that up a couple notches perhaps? Or at least tweak up the wounds above normal; I'm not talking WHFB either. FnP got nerfed and buffed at the same time, but for some reason I have a feeling this fellow might be the exception with a FnP of 4+ in brackets or something come the reborn Daemon Codex. This GD wouldn't have made the front seat if it weren't for his cheapness in points. With a Wraithlord making Bolters cry let alone Lasguns, the manifestation of the lord of Plague, Death and Decay is WOUNDED by both weapons, including the latter...? Hm, methinks there is something amid-st here. I'd REALLY like to see the actual representation of Nurgle, please. Says a lot when he's only 1 toughness over his burbling little minions...


Anyways, there is my rant/insight/opinion. I wouldn't label this as 'tactics', just my thoughts so far.

I know they all have 4+, but that matters little when massed firepower comes their way. I'm not suggesting they become invincible, only that they don't embarrass us on the field at times; most of the time, actually, the GUO MAYBE an exception. But honestly, as GDs, they should be subject to abnormal statistics, but slapped with a hefty points sum; that is just fine with me. If I had to pay 300+ for a GUO that is toughness 8 among other things, I'll be just sated with that.

Perhaps others may not agree, but everyone HAS to admit GDs to have an abnormal stats line. They may of at one time, but I've only played since 5th edition.

Go on, speak up! Interested in thoughts!

I apologize in advance if this is in the wrong section, but honestly could not tell where it'd go elsewhere.

Having only used the KoS I think they weren't at too bad a spot. They feel big, but not invincible which is sort of a good balance in a way. To me though it was basically just getting a faster Avatar, which I didn't want the enemy to shoot at and actually wanted to get into combat. One thing I think that could use a touch of work though is the Daemon Princes. They're in between as they should, but as the GDs feel a bit bigger than the infantry the DPs sort of feel lack lustre. Perhaps that'll change with this edition with the wings allowing them to become flying monstrous creatures, giving them a bit more mobility and survivability than they had before.

Ah, actually forgot about the Daemon Princes in my interpretation of the GDs. I'd agree they're more in need of attention than the GDs, which really only need tweaks here and there.

Daemon Princes for Chaos Daemons are relatively cheap until you start giving them things; now that Daemon Princes for Daemons can become Flying Monstrous Creatures, I've given second thought to them. To make a viable Daemon Prince though, you have to give up some points; a kitted out Nurgle Prince is 200 pts roughly.

The Lord of Change is a lot better in 6th.

Bloodthirsters can't assault when they swoop so a large part of their statline goes to waste. But Lords of Change can vector strike and then fire two weapons so they're getting more out of swooping, and they're better at soaking fire from low AP guns.

I can certainly agree. The Lord of Change is still rather pricey for his abilities, but seeing as how he could deal with Fliers, that is a nice bonus.

A fully-kitted out LoC is more expensive than Fateweaver for the most part.

CleverAntics wrote:I can certainly agree. The Lord of Change is still rather pricey for his abilities, but seeing as how he could deal with Fliers, that is a nice bonus.

A fully-kitted out LoC is more expensive than Fateweaver for the most part.

With swooping We Are Legion doesn't seem all that important.

Master of Sorcery and Breath of Change is 290. You could drop breath if you wanted and just go with Vector Strke/Gaze/Bolt for 260 points, still effective. You can Vector Strike one target and shoot another without We Are Legion.

Also swooping makes it very easy to get rear armour shots on things with Bolt of Tzeentch while also murdering their infantry with vector strike, and makes it easy to get in position to pick off valuable targets with shooting thanks to the new wound allocation.

As far as the GDs are concerned, it looks as if the KoS took the biggest hit, followed by the GUO. The Bloodthirster became a lot better so he isn't instantly shot off the table, and given that he can move 24" and come in Swooping, you can position him carefully and next turn be set up for a charge.

I'll give the LoC a go, and most certainly the Bloodthirster. I'm rather eager to see what they'll do with the GDs for their new codex concerning any stat changes and such as I discussed in the first post.

At least a nice selection of options would be preferable, and a couple amends to GD profiles; I'd be much sated with that.

Personally, I feel the stats will change, if only 2 or 3 stats per GD, or less.

Keeper of Secrets like Daemonettes is left out with the fleet changes as they are less agile now (while Seekers and Fiends benefit from a 12” movement). Keeper of Secrets is not bad but it needs something to set it apart from the other three now. The winged GD have become pretty attractive and the Greater Unclean one is just an immovable object now with the FNP change. Although the rumored eternal warrior levels never materialized so they are safe from outright kills for the most part.

The GUO should be T 10 and/or W 10. There should be at least one T 10 something in the universe, and if not him, then who? Crying shame wraithlords are tougher.

KOS should move like a beast, otherwise hes great.

LOC should have 4 shooting attacks and better BS as mentioned.

And they were fun too being T8, watching bolt fire just bounce off of them. Would make the opponent have to think about how to tackle it a bit more.

Playing a game or two, I find the Great Unclean One isn't as impressive as he once was; he's taken a backseat at the moment.

He has his place though, and it didn't help I played against a Dark Eldar player who had poisoned shooting attacks up the wazoo. Lasted two turns, and only because he wasn't the focus of shooting.

Against Marines I want to say he got better; the 4+ invulnerable save PLUS a 5++ FnP even against Melta weapons and Lascannons is really nice. However, with his nerfs, at the moment, he is a cheap, big, old fat piece of bait; just deepstrike him amidst everything and make the opponent shoot their whole army at them because he is in their face, drawing attention away from the little baby Daemons.

That is essentially what he is useful for now; can't run anymore or Sweeping Advance. Just a fat piece of bait for fire magnets.

If he was made into T10...only Autocannons and stronger would be able to hurt him; and, of course, poisoned attacks. Although I have my doubts that they would do that - seeing as how even the FW Great Unclean One is T9 himself for some reason rather than 10 - but at least a high toughness, and/or a special rule giving him a better FnP or something along those lines.

The GUO should be T 10 and/or W 10. There should be at least one T 10 something in the universe, and if not him, then who? Crying shame wraithlords are tougher.

Well the biggest and baddest GUO is T10 and W10, the GUO on board are the weakest of the weak, like the rest, since after all a "Standard" Greater Daemon can conquer planets on it's own.

That is essentially what he is useful for now; can't run anymore or Sweeping Advance. Just a fat piece of bait for fire magnets.

He's far faster than he was before, since now instead of D6 + D6 + D6 it's 6" + 2D6, at least you have some guarantee of mobility.

In all honesty, I'd be ecstatic just to get T8, or an abnormal amount of wounds with a better FnP; 4++. It is an absolute pity and insult that LASGUNS aka Flashlights can hurt a Great Unclean One...makes me cry every time I think about it.

That, and the lack of options and innovation in the Codex itself. Apparently Daemons only have their hands, feet, claws and fangs to count as creative wargear. I think a thing or two could be learned about the WHFB version, perhaps toned down a bit.

I just hope the person writing the Codex knows what they're doing. Make my Great Unclean One proper and I'll be sated.

Those of you that have played beyond 5th, has the GDs had better stats than they do now? I think the Bloodthirster was T7 in the 3.5 Codex; maybe I'm wrong, but I swear it was. The GUO had W6, but had only the 4++, though I think he was insanely cheap.

Also, per rules of Flying Monstrous Creature, a Bloodthirster or Lord of Change Swooping has to rule for Grounded tests for EVERY unit that shoots at them I suppose...?

Those of you that have played beyond 5th, has the GDs had better stats than they do now? I think the Bloodthirster was T7 in the 3.5 Codex; maybe I'm wrong, but I swear it was. The GUO had W6, but had only the 4++, though I think he was insanely cheap.

Whipping out the old 3.5 dex.,,

Blood: 9/0/8/6/4/4/5/10/ 3+/4++
GUO: 5/3/7/6/62/3/10/4++
LoC: 8/4/6/6/4/6/3/10/4++
KoS: 7/3/7/6/4/4/5/10/4++

Cheaper back then though.

Greater Daemons were outrageously strong in 2nd edition then got crushed into cheap, not particularly scary beings in 3rd. They're stronger currently than they were in 2003.

Nitros14 wrote:Greater Daemons were outrageously strong in 2nd edition then got crushed into cheap, not particularly scary beings in 3rd. They're stronger currently than they were in 2003.

Bah, 2nd, they were at their strongest in Epic! Bloodthirsters who could summon more bloodthirsters because their axes were made of bloodthirsters and they get free. Like 800+ points, but sooo funny to watch.

Nitros14 wrote:Greater Daemons were outrageously strong in 2nd edition then got crushed into cheap, not particularly scary beings in 3rd. They're stronger currently than they were in 2003.

In 3rd there was still sweeping advance into new combat. Greater Daemons (and Daemon Princes) could make up their point cost pretty easy back when most units were min/maxed Plasma Rifle / Lascannon 5 person Space Marine squads.