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Made in se
Ferocious Black Templar Castellan






Sweden

Right, the Snap Shot special rule says shots are resolved at BS1. Could I use a Signum to let one model fire at fliers with BS5? Snap Shot would say to resolve the shot(s) at BS1, the Signum would say BS5 and since Codex>Rulebook these days the BS5 would get precedence, right?

For thirteen years I had a dog with fur the darkest black. For thirteen years he was my friend, oh how I want him back. 
   
Made in se
Novice Knight Errant Pilot





Stockholm Forge District; Skandian Hive Collectives

I would say no, Snap Shot is a final application that lowers the BS to 1 and just like the Unwieldly rule that lowers initiative to 1 it cannot be positively modified unless a different rule expressively states to negate this rule.
No Skyfire - No using base BS to shoot at fliers.

I have a little hobby-thread going in the P&M section. Some say it's the best blog on Dakka, some don't agree, most belive it would be better if I finished at least one project some time this century and not just kept starting new ones.
Check it out, you just might like it.

http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/385168.page 
   
Made in gb
Decrepit Dakkanaut




Snapfire is resolved at BS1, if you fire at BS5 you cannot be snap firing.
   
Made in se
Ferocious Black Templar Castellan






Sweden

nosferatu1001 wrote:Snapfire is resolved at BS1, if you fire at BS5 you cannot be snap firing.


Why not? Declare Snap Shots, declare use of Signum. Codex overrules BRB, shot goes off at BS5.

For thirteen years I had a dog with fur the darkest black. For thirteen years he was my friend, oh how I want him back. 
   
Made in gb
Purposeful Hammerhead Pilot





Read page three about modifiers and the order they are applied. I believe in this case you would roll for which modifier applies.
   
Made in gb
Grim Dark Angels Interrogator-Chaplain





Earth

Bobug wrote:Read page three about modifiers and the order they are applied. I believe in this case you would roll for which modifier applies.


I agree, this is 2 set modifiers so the book tells us to roll off to see which applies at that time, in a sense you are still fireing a snap shot then modifieing (sp?) it from BS1 to BS5, now the BS1 is a set modifier and so is the BS5, so a roll of seems to be the way to do it
   
Made in us
Resolute Ultramarine Honor Guard






Peoria IL

I'd love this to work, but page 81 says "shots resolved at a Zooming FLyer can only be resolved as Snap Shots"

Resolution is rolling and applying the result.

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Made in us
Sister Vastly Superior







My understanding is that Signums give the model BS5. Snapshots are resolved as BS1.
Very similar to the question of Howling Banshees and Axes (unwieldy). Banshee Mask says model is I10, unweildy says strikes at I1.
So with a Signum, you would be BS5, but your shot is resolved at BS1.

EDIT:
This has come up before:
http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/458500.page#4471367

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2012/07/09 14:32:25


I play Space Marines, Dark Angels, Blood Angels, Astra Militarum, Militarum Tempestus, Chaos Space Marines, Dark Eldar, Eldar, Orks, Adepta Sororitas, 'Nids, Necrons, Tau and Grey Knights. 
   
Made in us
Missionary On A Mission




Richmond Va

The presented example is bad as the banshee mask is applied after everything else (FAQ'd)

My Overprotective Father wrote:Tyrants shooting emplaced weapons? A Hive Tyrant may be smarter than your average bug, but that still isint saying much

Pretre: Are repressors assault vehicles? If they are, I'm gonna need emergency pants.
n0t_u: No, but six can shoot out of it. Other than that it's a Rhino with a Heavy Flamer thrown on if I remember correctly.
Pretre: Thanks! I guess my pants are safe and clean after all.
 
   
Made in us
Sister Vastly Superior







Vindicare-Obsession wrote:The presented example is bad as the banshee mask is applied after everything else (FAQ'd)

There is nothing in the Eldar FAQ pertaining to Banshee Masks.
Banshees Masks say you are I10 for the first round. Unweildy causes you to strike at I1.

I play Space Marines, Dark Angels, Blood Angels, Astra Militarum, Militarum Tempestus, Chaos Space Marines, Dark Eldar, Eldar, Orks, Adepta Sororitas, 'Nids, Necrons, Tau and Grey Knights. 
   
Made in us
Land Raider Pilot on Cruise Control





Utah

A signum allows one member of the squad count as BS5 until the end of the shooting phase. Since the modifier is added at the beginning of the phase then adjusted when a shot is declared it cannot affect the snap shot. Not to mention that the rule for snap shots states that the model's "Ballistic skill is counted as being 1 for the purpose of these shots." Whatever BS you have before you shoot your gun is irrelevant. As soon as you pick up your gun and fire a Snap Shot you are BS1. (Which makes me sad because I would love to use this with my Scouts and Devs.)
   
Made in us
Missionary On A Mission




Richmond Va

I was sure this was brought up in Banshees vs Lashwhip. I am unsure why I cant find it now.....

Until I do, point conceeded.

My Overprotective Father wrote:Tyrants shooting emplaced weapons? A Hive Tyrant may be smarter than your average bug, but that still isint saying much

Pretre: Are repressors assault vehicles? If they are, I'm gonna need emergency pants.
n0t_u: No, but six can shoot out of it. Other than that it's a Rhino with a Heavy Flamer thrown on if I remember correctly.
Pretre: Thanks! I guess my pants are safe and clean after all.
 
   
Made in us
Beast Lord






Captain Antivas wrote:A signum allows one member of the squad count as BS5 until the end of the shooting phase. Since the modifier is added at the beginning of the phase then adjusted when a shot is declared it cannot affect the snap shot. Not to mention that the rule for snap shots states that the model's "Ballistic skill is counted as being 1 for the purpose of these shots." Whatever BS you have before you shoot your gun is irrelevant. As soon as you pick up your gun and fire a Snap Shot you are BS1. (Which makes me sad because I would love to use this with my Scouts and Devs.)


What he said.

around 2500 points
600 points 
   
Made in us
Sister Vastly Superior







Vindicare-Obsession wrote:I was sure this was brought up in Banshees vs Lashwhip. I am unsure why I cant find it now.....

Until I do, point conceeded.


Necron FAQ:

Q: If a model with whip coils is in base contact with an Initiative-boosting rule/piece of wargear (e.g. An Eldar Banshee Mask, etc.), which order are the Initiatives modified? (p44)
A: As a 'set value modifier', the Whip Coils effect is applied after all other modifiers. If the model is affected by another set value modifier, roll off to see which is applied first at the start of each Fight sub-phase.


This specifically applies to Initiative in combat.
1 But if we break shooting phase into:
2 Pick unit to use
3 Pick target
4 Resolve Shots (to hit)
5 Resolve Hits (to wound)
6 Saving throws
7 Remove Cassualties
0 Repeat

Signums would apply at step 2/3, Snap fire at step 4. So Snap fire would over-ride Signums.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2012/07/09 15:20:36


I play Space Marines, Dark Angels, Blood Angels, Astra Militarum, Militarum Tempestus, Chaos Space Marines, Dark Eldar, Eldar, Orks, Adepta Sororitas, 'Nids, Necrons, Tau and Grey Knights. 
   
Made in us
Longtime Dakkanaut




Vindicare-Obsession wrote:I was sure this was brought up in Banshees vs Lashwhip. I am unsure why I cant find it now.....

Until I do, point conceeded.


Thhat was in the nid FAQ under 5th and got De-FAQed under 6th. Now as both are set value rules you role off to see which one takes effect each time the would apply.
   
Made in gb
Longtime Dakkanaut





Codex doesn't trump rulebook, specific trumps general.
So RAW yes, you can use Signum to make a weapon BS5.

However, I wouldn't let my opponent try to use this during a game, and I don't think most people would.

Unnessesarily extravegant word of the week award goes to jcress410 for this:

jcress wrote:Seem super off topic to complain about epistemology on a thread about tactics.
 
   
Made in us
Longtime Dakkanaut




Both are set values so you have to follow application order.

SM base bs:4
Sarge gives signum bonus bs:5
SM targets flyer with a skyfire weapon BS:5
or
SM targets Flyer withoug Skyfire triggering Hard to Hit rule which invokes Snapfire BS:1

Since the last Value applied is always going to be snap fire BS:1

Unless Snapfire gets FAQed to be a non set value modifer all Snapfire instances will always be BS:1
   
Made in gb
Grim Dark Angels Interrogator-Chaplain





Earth

Testify wrote:Codex doesn't trump rulebook, specific trumps general.
So RAW yes, you can use Signum to make a weapon BS5.

However, I wouldn't let my opponent try to use this during a game, and I don't think most people would.


they changed that dude, BRB says codex trumps rulebook but as usual not in all cases... damn gw
   
Made in us
Rough Rider with Boomstick




Fond du Lac, Wi

Something to think about on this topic. Use a devastator squad as an example here. You start at BS4, the Signum raises you to BS5. It doesn't matter whether the ballistic skill on your profile is 4, 5, or even over 9,000. You will still count as ballistic skill 1 when making a snap shot. Why? Snap shot does NOT alter the ballistic skill of the model, it instead is counted as BS 1. So in order to make a snap shot, you may be ballistic skill 5 from the signum, but you count as Ballistic skill one since you are making a special type of shot.

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-Einstein 
   
Made in us
Fixture of Dakka





That's not really true though. Snap Shots can be at other Ballistic Skills besides 1. There's a psychic power that does such.

So there's precedent that Snap Shots can be at other BS. Why would something that sets your BS not work?

"'players must agree how they are going to select their armies, and if any restrictions apply to the number and type of models they can use."

This is an actual rule in the actual rulebook. Quit whining about how you can imagine someone's army touching you in a bad place and play by the actual rules.


Freelance Ontologist

When people ask, "What's the point in understanding everything?" they've just disqualified themselves from using questions and should disappear in a puff of paradox. But they don't understand and just continue existing, which are also their only two strategies for life. 
   
Made in us
Longtime Dakkanaut





This is pretty simple as others have pointed out, Snap shots do not modify your BS, you could be BS10 with +1 and a replacement of 6. The shot is resolved at BS1, your modifiers substitutions and any other jiggering you try will not work. It is simply resolved at it, it is not using the firers ballistic skill in any way how or form, so modifying it makes no difference.
   
Made in us
Fixture of Dakka





So your contention is the psychic power which allows snap shots for overwatch at full BS is still BS 1?

Because it can't be both ways. If BS modifiers can't work on Snap Shot, that power can't either.

"'players must agree how they are going to select their armies, and if any restrictions apply to the number and type of models they can use."

This is an actual rule in the actual rulebook. Quit whining about how you can imagine someone's army touching you in a bad place and play by the actual rules.


Freelance Ontologist

When people ask, "What's the point in understanding everything?" they've just disqualified themselves from using questions and should disappear in a puff of paradox. But they don't understand and just continue existing, which are also their only two strategies for life. 
   
Made in ca
Dakka Veteran




The wording about contradicting rules like this is that the player whose turn it is decides in which order they are applied.

So if it's your turn firing at a zooming flyer, you may fire at BS5 with one guy and the rest at BS1.

Overwatching on his turn he would make the snap shots BS1 applied last so all would be BS1.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2012/07/15 07:02:51


 
   
Made in us
Land Raider Pilot on Cruise Control





Utah

DarknessEternal wrote:So your contention is the psychic power which allows snap shots for overwatch at full BS is still BS 1?

Because it can't be both ways. If BS modifiers can't work on Snap Shot, that power can't either.

No, the power that allows you to fire overwatch at full BS is a specific rule that removes the Snap Shot restriction from overwatch. It does not modify your BS but modifies the overwatch rule to not require a Snap Shot be used. It is Snap Shot that requires BS1 not overwatch.
   
Made in us
Fixture of Dakka





Captain Antivas wrote:
No, the power that allows you to fire overwatch at full BS is a specific rule that removes the Snap Shot restriction from overwatch.

It does not remove Snap Shotting from Overwatch. It just says to use your full BS. It is a psychic power that says to use your full BS.

Signums are wargear that says to use BS 5.

"'players must agree how they are going to select their armies, and if any restrictions apply to the number and type of models they can use."

This is an actual rule in the actual rulebook. Quit whining about how you can imagine someone's army touching you in a bad place and play by the actual rules.


Freelance Ontologist

When people ask, "What's the point in understanding everything?" they've just disqualified themselves from using questions and should disappear in a puff of paradox. But they don't understand and just continue existing, which are also their only two strategies for life. 
   
Made in us
Land Raider Pilot on Cruise Control





Utah

I am going to preface this by saying I want this to work really badly. I would love to shoot down my opponent's Storm Raven with my Lascannon, or move my scouts and still get a good sniper roll in. But I don't think it works that way.

It indirectly does remove the Snap Shot restriction, but you are right. It doesn't say it does that. In fact upon reading it again you are right in saying that it modifies the Snap Shot BS. Which is allowed because it specifically says it does. The Signum says that you declare you are using the Signum before any to-hit rolls are made making your BS 5. Now remember these modifiers are added in order of their application. Before the to-hit roll is made you declare you are using the Signum, then once the shot is fired and the to-hit die is rolled you resolve it at BS 1 since "a model is forced to make a Snap Shot rather than shoot normally, then its Ballistic Skill is counted as being 1 for the purpose of these shots." As was previously mentioned your BS could be 9000 for snap shots you are considered to be BS 1 for that shot. It says you do not shoot as normal when you shoot a snap shot so your modified BS is irrelevant.
   
Made in us
Nervous Accuser






Another FAQ ruling that help this is the one for the Tau seeker missle. It's rules say it is fired at "assumed BS of 5", and was FAQ'ed to use BS 5 instead of 1 for snap shots.
   
Made in us
Powerful Phoenix Lord





Buffalo, NY

I thought the FAQ stated that it still has BS 5 regardless of the vehicles BS.

Greebo had spent an irritating two minutes in that box. Technically, a cat locked in a box may be alive or it may be dead. You never know until you look. In fact, the mere act of opening the box will determine the state of the cat, although in this case there were three determinate states the cat could be in: these being Alive, Dead, and Bloody Furious.
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Made in us
Fixture of Dakka





Yep, Tau FAQ says snap shotting Seeker Missiles are BS 5.

At this point, I can't see any reason why a Signum wouldn't operate the same way. It's gear that sets BS. Other gear or effects setting BS are going around Snap Shots "BS1" statement.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2012/07/15 21:36:02


"'players must agree how they are going to select their armies, and if any restrictions apply to the number and type of models they can use."

This is an actual rule in the actual rulebook. Quit whining about how you can imagine someone's army touching you in a bad place and play by the actual rules.


Freelance Ontologist

When people ask, "What's the point in understanding everything?" they've just disqualified themselves from using questions and should disappear in a puff of paradox. But they don't understand and just continue existing, which are also their only two strategies for life. 
   
Made in us
Powerful Phoenix Lord





Buffalo, NY

DarknessEternal wrote:Yep, Tau FAQ says snap shotting Seeker Missiles are BS 5.


No it says the Seeker Missiles are BS5 even if the vehicle they are on has a reduced BS (such as being stunned). It makes no mention of Snap Firing, so they would still Snap Fire at BS 1.

Greebo had spent an irritating two minutes in that box. Technically, a cat locked in a box may be alive or it may be dead. You never know until you look. In fact, the mere act of opening the box will determine the state of the cat, although in this case there were three determinate states the cat could be in: these being Alive, Dead, and Bloody Furious.
Orks always ride in single file to hide their strength and numbers.
Gozer the Gozerian, Gozer the Destructor, Volguus Zildrohar, Gozer the Traveler, and Lord of the Sebouillia 
   
 
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