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What the title says.

Defensive grenades prevent assaulters from using the additional attacks they gain on the turn they charge into cc.

HoW is an additional attack gained by units on the turn they assault into cc.

This seems simple to me but people are arguing with me on this, so I figured I'd bring here to YMDC.

What do you guys think?

That would be nice. I don't think it blocks a special ability, but if others say you are right I will go with it.

Defensive grenades stop the extra attack you get when you charge. It does not stop HoW wich is a different additional attack all together that only some people get. Now if the rules read that Defensive grenades prevent all additional attacks or better yet if it said they cause a charge to count as a disorganized charge, then you would be golden.

Well, it does say that it blocks charge attacks, as those on page 24. But HoW also describes itself as attacks going at I10, and only on the charge.

I would say, that HoW attacks aren't from charging, they are from a SR that only works on the charge (different source, but same time). Defensive grenades remove attacks from charging, not from SR's that activate when charging.

That being said, this is not one that I would argue my side with conviction on, and I would not be surprised at all if an FAQ later said "yes, it works against HoW"

GW might decide to leave it unmentioned and just get it right in the next Tau Codex

Edit: wrong page number, tough to type fast enough on phone.

Since the rules for defensive grenades reference page 24 specifically, and this is the page that reviews extra attacks for charging, I would say it is limited to those attacks only and not HoW.

Pg 37-HoW says that, "If a model with this rule ends its charge move in base to base contact with one or more enemy models, it makes one additional Attack that hits automatically and is resolved at the models unmodified strength with an AP-".

Now the first thing I notice is that HoW could be read as to replacing the models normal +1 charge attack.

Second, That it could definitely be considered a charge attack that only some models get.


Hmmm, the rules for number of charge bonus attacks on pg 24, unfortunately, use set values to describe the charge bonus. This could create problems for models that get extra charge bonus attacks(rage) and for defensive grenades.

"People will argue that rage is a special rule and not a charge bonus. Therefore rage will be unaffected by defensive grenades."
This is what will be argued if a precedent is set that extra charge attacks "covered or modified" by a special rule are not stopped defensive grenades.

Ohh, this could get very murky... very quick.

There is also an "Other Bonuses" portion to this section that could work as a catch all and strengthen the case for defensive grenades or could be considered a seperate sectiona all together.
????

I'm leaning towards the grenades stopping the HoW attacks. The rule comes too close to describing the attack as a charge bonus attack.


Curious, there is a case to be made that HoW is not in addition to the charge bonus attack, rather it could be read as replacing the charge bonus attack.
Wonder how the community will view this?


Hmmm,,,
Combining that the charge bonus section sets a charge bonus at +1 attack
with the defensive grenades referencing only the charge bonus section on pg 24
and the fact that rage does not reference either

This could leave room for someone to argue that Rage is not a charge bonus but rather its own seperate entity. Thus defensive grenades would not work against rage.


All in all, good catches Captain Avatar.
I will follow this thread to see what the consensus is and note the results in my tactics thread.

Defensive grenades do not say the +1 Charge Bonus is stopped it simply states ''Models charging do not gain Bonus attacks FROM CHARGING, unless they were already locked in combat the previous turn'', the Rage rule does state ''it gains +2 attacks FOR CHARGING, rather than +1'' thus Rage would not work against unit who hold defensive grenades.
HoW unlike the Rage special rule does not say that it is specifically for charging, it implies it but it does not state ''it makes one additional attack FOR CHARGING that hits automatically'', hopefully this will be FAQ'd soon to make more sense.
Personally it looks like the defensive grenades would stop it as you have to charge and end the charge move in base contact to get this additional attack and as such i would count it as a bonus attack from charging and the defensive grenades stop these, naturally make sure your opponent agrees before the game that this is how you are playing it.

This is a grey area.

HoW is a special ability and is not a per-say bonus from charging. It's a bonus for being in base to base with a model. But is listed in it's description as an extra attack.

Reading the rule for me it sounds as if they are taking away any extra attack just for the purpose of charging and not a special ability.

So taking away +1 attack on the charge or any variant of this. Radnar gets +D3 on the charge.

On a side note. I don't see how defensive grenades will stop a bike from running you over.

def grenades specifically calls out the charge bonus on p.24. It never mentions HoW. And HoW does not say it is a bonus attack from charging.

Def grenades do not stop HoW, and no it really isn't a grey area...

Go read HoW again.

It's an extra attack. Says it in black and white.

Def Nads states it doesn't allow extra attacks from the charge.

HoW is only used in a charge.

SO GREY AREA

But I put my points out why I don't think it is grey but I can see how people can get confused.

So is the Def Rule written poorly? Yes. It should have said Def Nad's make all charges disorderly for the purpose for bonus attacks.

This way people know what that it effects number of attacks and not any special ability. Ie HoW and Furious Charge.

MJThurston wrote:Go read HoW again.

It's an extra attack. Says it in black and white.

Def Nads states it doesn't allow extra attacks from the charge.

HoW is only used in a charge.

SO GREY AREA

But I put my points out why I don't think it is grey but I can see how people can get confused.

So is the Def Rule written poorly? Yes. It should have said Def Nad's make all charges disorderly for the purpose for bonus attacks.

This way people know what that it effects number of attacks and not any special ability. Ie HoW and Furious Charge.

So it's an attack now... because in the last HoW thread you said:

MJThurston wrote:There is a valid argument.

Touching base to base is the auto hit. Doing the wounding is delayed to sub-phase init 10.

I don't see how this is debatable. These are not close combat hits. They are hits that happen when a model touches another model during assault.

Resolved is the key word. So it happened but rolls to wound are done at this time.

So no they are not close combat attacks.

http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/459049.page#4536253

I am not trying to re-open the other thread, I would just like you to clarify your position.

Oh snap!

Wow, trying to troll.

If you had read any of my last post on HoW you would find that it's an attack that happened before Init 10. You resolve it at Init 10. It's an attack but not a CC attack. That must be the part you missed.

BUT..... that has nothing to do with this question.

MJThurston wrote:Wow, trying to troll.

I'm really not - but thanks for the accusation. I saw what looked like two opposing views on the same thing by the same person. Hence the reason I asked for clarification instead of being abusive.

If you had read any of my last post on HoW you would find that it's an attack that happened before Init 10. You resolve it at Init 10. It's an attack but not a CC attack. That must be the part you missed.

I understand that's your interpretation of the fluff (an attack that happened before init 10) but I don't see that in the rules. I just see it as an attack that automatically hits and is resolved at I10. Not an attack that hits before I10 and is resolved at I10.

BUT..... that has nothing to do with this question.

It absolutely does. You asserted there's a grey area because you're calling HoW an attack, and you refused to allow it to be an attack in the other thread (my perception). Hence the reason I asked for clarification.

You can continue to treat me however you want, but all I wanted was clarification on that point.

I could be persuaded either way on this, but let me say what I think was intended. So basically whatever I say has no impact whatsoever on the actual rules aspects - I'm just talking fluff.

I think of HoW as "impact" hits. Imagine a cavalry charge. Or a unit of bikes gunning their engines and hitting you full speed, or that Jump pack guy landing on your shoulders. That's the HoW attack. Would defensive grenades stop the attack that comes from the inertia of the charger? I don't know, maybe but I don't think so.

Rules wise, it's pretty murky and opens up other grey areas - particularly the "+2 rage attacks" question. I think this one is a great candidate for an FAQ.

Look Troll this is about Def. Grenades. Not about you trying to cheat on another issue.

Keep your views to how Def Grenades work.

Rage does not work vs Def Grenades. It's replacing the +1 for charging and that is what Def Grenades take away.

Ragnar doesn't even get his +d3 attacks.

rigeld2 is not trolling, he is disagreeing with you. Pointing out contradictions in your arguments is a standard part of a debate, throwing the word troll back does you no credit.

Sorry for this out of topic post.

First he is posting something I didn't intend. HoW is obvious an extra attack as I have stated here.

As with that post and this post I have clarified that this extra hit happens outside of combat but is resolved during combat.

That has not changed in any way.

So Def Grenade cancel addition attacks gained for charging. A unit with HoW only gets these hit for touching base to base and not just for charging.

That's the clarification I was hoping to see, thank you.

Defensive Grenades work as i previously stated they stop bonus attacks FROM CHARGING and references pg24, now pg 24 has 3 types of bonus attacks, the +1Charge Bonus which is standard, the +1 Two Weapons which is not being disputed by the defensive grenades and lastly Other Bonuses which includes special rules and wargear that confer extra attacks which can also be disputed by the Defensive Grenade rule if they are for charging.
The Defensive Grenades would stop the +1 Charge Bonus and the Rage rule as they both get +1 or +2 attacks FOR CHARGING so they do not work full stop, the HoW is a special rule that works when a unit charges and ends its charge move in base contact with an enemy unit, however as i noted before it does not say the additional attack is from the charging but they need to charge to get it, the Rage special rule does advise it is +2 FOR CHARGING which is the grey area in my opinion.
Since my Wraiths would do this alot i would agree with my opponent before game that defensive grenades stop these HoW attacks in the interest of fair play until it is FAQ'd black and white, i would rather play it this way and lose than the other way and find i had robbed hard won battles from my friends.

We can do without the name calling and insults.
Thanks

reds8n wrote: We can do without the name calling and insults.
Thanks

Exalted.

Grugknuckle wrote:I could be persuaded either way on this, but let me say what I think was intended. So basically whatever I say has no impact whatsoever on the actual rules aspects - I'm just talking fluff.

I think of HoW as "impact" hits. Imagine a cavalry charge. Or a unit of bikes gunning their engines and hitting you full speed, or that Jump pack guy landing on your shoulders. That's the HoW attack. Would defensive grenades stop the attack that comes from the inertia of the charger? I don't know, maybe but I don't think so.

Rules wise, it's pretty murky and opens up other grey areas - particularly the "+2 rage attacks" question. I think this one is a great candidate for an FAQ.

As to defensive grenades stopping impact hits? Defensive grenades are the 40k equivalent of what we call flashbangs, They blind and disorient the enemy when up close. I could easily see how this would have the assaulters just miss their HoW while still getting into cc.

About rage, Yeah. Setting the fixed +1 attack value on pg.24 and then never referencing that rage replaces the "charge bonus" rule definitely leaves it open for people to claim that rage is not a "charge bonus" but is its own entity instead.

The argument for Rage not being affected by def grenades gets stronger if it is decided that HoW is not affected by these same grenades due to it being a special rule.


IMO, The big one that no one seems to have picked up on is that HoW could easily be read as a modification of the normal charge bonus attack.
When read that way, charge bonus attacks sacrifice their strength and AP bonuses in order to gain the higher Initiative step of 10, but only models that end their move in btb contact have the option to trade their charge bonus attacks for HoW.

MJThurston wrote:As with that post and this post I have clarified that this extra hit happens outside of combat but is resolved during combat.

That has not changed in any way.

So Def Grenade cancel addition attacks gained for charging. A unit with HoW only gets these hit for touching base to base and not just for charging.

I disagree with your premise about HoW occuring outside of combat. The reason for this is as follows:

Models may only end up in BtB contact at the end of an assault/charge move.
This move happens after the assault phase has begun.
A model is considered locked in combat the moment that their base touches the base or chassis of an opposing model.


So lets instead look at HoW as an additional attack gained on the turn that the model charges in/assaults.

If it is an additional attack gained on the charge then there is a strong case to say that the defensive grenades do stop HoW.

If it is an attack granted by special rule only, but happens to occur on the turn when charging in it still could be viewed as being affected by the defensive grenades. This is due to the defensive grenade rule referencing pg 24, but does not limit the wording to "charge bonus". It instead says, "bonus Attacks from charging".
Because of this, the pg 24 reference could be considered to reference the entire Attacks section, which happens to also include the special rules reference.

IMO, there is a stronger case to be made that HoW is a modification of the normal charge bonus, rather than an additional attack.

Userarm wrote:the HoW is a special rule that works when a unit charges and ends its charge move in base contact with an enemy unit,

This, exactly this. The bonus attacks from HoW are granted by virtue of being in base to base contact with an enemy at the I10 step of the Fight sub-phase in the same player turn in which they charged. While you do get them only when you charge, they are not granted because you charged. Ergo, defensive grenades would not prevent HoW hits. They would, however, seem to prevent the effects of other USRs such as Rage.

alienvalentine wrote:

Userarm wrote:the HoW is a special rule that works when a unit charges and ends its charge move in base contact with an enemy unit,

This, exactly this. The bonus attacks from HoW are granted by virtue of being in base to base contact with an enemy at the I10 step of the Fight sub-phase in the same player turn in which they charged. While you do get them only when you charge, they are not granted because you charged. Ergo, defensive grenades would not prevent HoW hits. They would, however, seem to prevent the effects of other USRs such as Rage.

Agreed, defensive grenades or not the units that get into base to base contact are going to slam into their opponents, that is what HoW represents.