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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2012/07/17 03:39:54
Subject: officer's weapon for choppy CCS
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Decrepit Dakkanaut
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So, as I prepare to start playing 6th ed, I want to have at least SOMETHING that is decent in close combat with my now blobless guard army. The most obvious choice for this is my CCS. The one thing I'm stuck on is the weapon the officer should have. I feel like a guard officer being choppy in a guard army sort of diverges away from the usual conversation about all the new power weapons.
A guard officer has a terrible initiative already, so taking a fist or an axe doesn't seem like a real sacrifice (compared to a space marine, for example). Also, being W3, and with a ++ save, a guard senior officer is actually rather likely to survive until it gets a chance to strike, at least, if it has the opportunity to issue or receive a challenge (which will be most of the time).
With the spear being total rubbish here (you're still only attacking at I3, and then it's not a proper power weapon anymore), and with the mace being of really dubious value (being not a proper power weapon, and concussive seeming only so-so in a duel against serious baddies with a guard officer), and with there being just little reason at all to bring a sword (as you're not attacking faster than most baddies at-initiative anyways), that sort of leaves the power fist, and the power axe as the only two serious contenders for a counterattack herobait CCS.
Which is where I'm stuck. The power fist is better in every way here (even giving the CCS meltabombs or krak grenades with the spare points). It tackles vehicles with pure awesomeness. It can tackle serious toughness stuff like monstrous creatures. It wounds on 2's rather than on 4's, which is a pretty big upgrade over the axe, even with one fewer attack. Against more hopeless situations (officer vs. grimnar, for example), he's likely to get in an extra wound, which might be all that's needed.
On the other hand, while the fist unlocks stuff, it doesn't necessarily excel in it. I mean, a powerfist officer will do more damage to a wraithlord, but it's still not going to win a close combat against it. Furthermore, while an axe is probably attacking at the same initiative as the fist (practically speaking), it does have that one crucial advantage of being able to pick off power fist wielding models before they have a chance to swing back at the officer, which may well be worth the less damage that you do right there.
So I was just wondering what seems the best in this particular set of circumstances. I like the fist's ability to be a proper all-comer on the one unit that's going to be relied on to bail stuff out in close combat. I like the axe's ability to be better in challenges against non-super-serious CC options (which the officer won't win anyways).
Also, would your opinion change if an eviscerator priest were thrown in? What about if there were a medic?
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This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2012/07/17 03:41:43
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2012/07/17 03:48:29
Subject: officer's weapon for choppy CCS
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Stone Bonkers Fabricator General
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Ailaros wrote:
I mean, a powerfist officer will do more damage to a wraithlord, but it's still not going to win a close combat against it. Furthermore, while an axe is probably attacking at the same initiative as the fist (practically speaking), it does have that one crucial advantage of being able to pick off power fist wielding models before they have a chance to swing back at the officer, which may well be worth the less damage that you do right there.
Fists and Axes swing at the same time
power swords will swing ahead of most orks and anybody with a fist.
I say take the fist if you want to do CC.
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Dark Mechanicus and Renegade Iron Hand Dakka Blog
My Dark Mechanicus P&M Blog. Mostly Modeling as I paint very slowly. Lots of kitbashed conversions of marines and a few guard to make up a renegade Iron Hand chapter and Dark Mechanicus Allies. Bionics++ |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2012/07/17 03:58:20
Subject: officer's weapon for choppy CCS
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Decrepit Dakkanaut
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oh, right, then really, what's the point of the axe for guardsmen then? Same initiative, less damage...
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2012/07/17 06:47:15
Subject: officer's weapon for choppy CCS
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Deranged Necron Destroyer
Somewhere Ironic
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The advantage is +1 attack and 5 points cheaper iirc. If that doesn't sound good to you, then its obvious.
Still, I don't understand why you believe blobs no longer work; they do, it merely requires reworking.
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This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2012/07/17 06:48:45
DQ:90S++G++MB++I--Pw40k01+D+A++/hWD-R+++T(D)DM+
Organiser of 40k Montreal
There is only war in Montreal
kronk wrote:The International Programmers Society has twice met to get the world to agree on one methodology for programming dates. Both times they met, the meeting devolved into a giant Unreal Tournament Lan party... |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2012/07/17 09:34:29
Subject: Re:officer's weapon for choppy CCS
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Ferocious Black Templar Castellan
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You could always upgrade to Straken, although I guess he might not fit in, depending on your army.
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For thirteen years I had a dog with fur the darkest black. For thirteen years he was my friend, oh how I want him back. |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2012/07/17 13:32:17
Subject: officer's weapon for choppy CCS
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Noble Knight of the Realm
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Yes, I was going to say go with Straken. I've used him a fair bit with good success. He's even better in 6th now that fearless isn't the liability it used to be.
You get your Str 6 that strikes before power fists, plus T4 for a bit more survivability. I bring a medic with Straken and even though FnP is not as potent as in 5th, I still think is 30 points well spent on a close-combat oriented CCS. Against anything with less than Str 8 you'll be getting two 5+ saves with Straken.
Bodyguards are cheaper but the extra bodies help. Perhaps not as essential now that fearless is better.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2012/07/17 13:56:44
Subject: officer's weapon for choppy CCS
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Rough Rider with Boomstick
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Straken is way more expensive than a PF, but like the above posters, I can't shake that he's just so much better in close combat than a normal CCS can hope to be. He's one of the few weapons that denies all armor saves and strikes before power fists, along with all the big defensive buffs he gets.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2012/07/17 14:20:31
Subject: Re:officer's weapon for choppy CCS
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Lone Wolf Sentinel Pilot
Sitting on the roof of my house with a shotgun, and a six pack of beers
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On a CCS your better going with a fist or Sword, as you noticed the axe is just the poor mans fist.
Where the axe has potential is in blobs, which you are no longer running, as they can't take fists. It is a worse version of the old ork trick of hide the powerklaw, admittedly it's harder to hide them now but you'll still have 3-4 axe wielding models.
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PM me and ask me about Warpath Wargames Norwich or send me an email
"If we hit that bullseye, the rest of the dominoes should fall like a house of cards. Checkmate!" Zapp Brannigan
33rd Jalvene Outlanders & 112th Task Force 6600 Points (last count)
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2012/07/17 15:56:29
Subject: officer's weapon for choppy CCS
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Decrepit Dakkanaut
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Biophysical wrote:Straken is way more expensive than a PF, but like the above posters, I can't shake that he's just so much better in close combat than a normal CCS can hope to be.
Is he? For 95 points, I can get Straken. For 105 points I get an eviscerator priest, a medic, and a power fist.
Straken gives +1S on the charge. The priest gives preferred enemy.
Straken throws down 4 eviscerator attacks. The priest and officer throw down 2 eviscerator attacks and 3 power fist attacks.
Straken brings W3 on a T4 3+/5++ frame. The priest and officer have W4 on a 5+/5++/4++ with FNP
Straken gains a plasma pistol and a higher WS, but the other combo gains two characters (so it can't all be absorbed by a challenge), and the priest can always run off if he has to. It's hard to say that Straken is really better here, much less that he's so much better that nothing else can hope to come close.
I suppose, you could do both, but (after throwing in other necessary upgrades) we'd be talking about spending over 275 points, here. Yeah, it would be pretty beaty, and it would also be rather resilient to the small stuff, but it's still not a big-league close combat squad, and it's still a few passes of some heavy bolters away from being largely ruined.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2012/07/17 16:22:23
Subject: officer's weapon for choppy CCS
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Lone Wolf Sentinel Pilot
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Dual Power Fist! I don't have the codex in front of me, but I think you can do that. I know you can on the Lord Commissar. That's my favorite build
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2012/07/17 16:42:30
Subject: Re:officer's weapon for choppy CCS
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Longtime Dakkanaut
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a powerfist officer will do more damage to a wraithlord, but it's still not going to win a close combat against it.
CCS officers will never win against wraithlords.
The only close combat weapon worth giving them is a power fist, then in a pinch they'll be able to assault a couple of stray terminators and hopefully do some damage, but they will never, ever, ever kill anything worthwhile.
Okay my CCS did kill a Chaos Deamon Prince one time but I got stupid lucky, and with the new challange rules your Company Commander is going to get challanged and killed by something that will strike before him anyway, so it may not even be worth the PF.
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Unnessesarily extravegant word of the week award goes to jcress410 for this:
jcress wrote:Seem super off topic to complain about epistemology on a thread about tactics. |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2012/07/17 16:53:32
Subject: officer's weapon for choppy CCS
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Rough Rider with Boomstick
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It's seems closer to me than you're saying:
Straken:
Offense: 4x WS5, S6, I3 attacks
Defense: 3 T4, 3+/5++ wounds (defended by WS 5)
PF Commander + Priest
Offense: 3x WS4, S6, I1 attacks + 2x WS3, S6, I1 attacks
Defense: 3 T3, 5+/5++ wounds (defended by WS 4) + 1 T3, 4++ wound defended by WS 3.
I think the second combo hits harder, but is much easier to take down. Both the commander and the priest are very vulnerable to challenges or precision strikes due to lack of good initiative, and poor defense. Straken can take on all those power fist challenges because he swings first and still wounds on 2+. He can also deal with challenges and random directed hits from the variety of S6 stuff that's out there, because a failed save is only 1 wound for him.
Another way to look at it is that while the second option has a bit more power, overall it's arguable enough to be close. Then throw in Fearless and the 12" angry bubble for Straken, and it's not even close.
Automatically Appended Next Post: Another thought: Although it costs more points, advisers (except bodyguards) are also characters, so if you were going to take one anyway, it can soak a challenge from someone nasty while Straken helps clear the unit.
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This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2012/07/17 16:55:43
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2012/07/17 21:54:49
Subject: officer's weapon for choppy CCS
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Decrepit Dakkanaut
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Ignatius wrote:Dual Power Fist! I don't have the codex in front of me, but I think you can do that. I know you can on the Lord Commissar. That's my favorite build
It's possible, certainly, but spending 15 points for just +1A (and making your officer look like Jax...) causes my eyes to water a bit. I think I'd rather take a bodyguard in this case, or a couple of flamers for the CCS.
Testify wrote:The only close combat weapon worth giving them is a power fist, then in a pinch they'll be able to assault a couple of stray terminators and hopefully do some damage, but they will never, ever, ever kill anything worthwhile.
Oh come now. Officers aren't the most survivable things, but with WS4, W3, a 5++ and the option for FNP, they're hardly pushovers. A powerfist-armed guard officer will beat a khorne berzerker skull champion in a challenge. They won't beat abbadon, but they will beat a wide latitude of things that are not also special characters, and that's not even mentioning things like vehicles that they are plenty capable of punching silly.
Biophysical wrote:Another thought: Although it costs more points, advisers (except bodyguards) are also characters, so if you were going to take one anyway, it can soak a challenge from someone nasty while Straken helps clear the unit.
I'm not sure about that. Please add to that thread if you can support this point of view, as I also think they should be characters, but I'm not sure.
Anyways, to break down straken vs the priest a little more. Straken certainly has an advantage against sniper and sergeant fire, as it will always be possible to target the priest. It has a 4++ so that's not as big of a concern, but with only W1, it still is an issue. Against precise strike, I'm not nearly as worried, as I can always throw something into a challenge most of the time. In this case, having two models is actually an asset as I can always throw the priest at something that would cause instant death to the officer (or straken, for that matter), and have it chew on a 4++ while the officer gets to spend time punching other stuff. Also, of course, if the officer isn't part of a duel, he still gets to use bodyguards (if any), which can't intervene on behalf of Straken whilst in a challenge.
As such, I'd say the combo less durable against shooting, as its killing power is divisible, but its more durable in close combat, what with being able to divide the models and have a challenge only thrown against one while the other survives. The 4++ option for the priest is meanwhile rather nice, especially with FNP. I guess this makes the squad slightly more durable against the bigger stuff while being slightly less so against the little stuff (straken's T4 definitely helps against small arms).
For the killing power, I guess it's once again a matter of divisibility. The combo can see the eviscerator rule picked apart from the powerfist, while in the case of straken its always the same. Straken is also more likely to win a challenge against something that doesn't have a power fist, what with being able to put all of the fancy attacks on something, rather than roughly half of them. On the other hand, that divisibility works to the combos advantage here as well. While in a challenge, straken MUST throw all of his attacks against the person he's dueling with, while the combo can throw some of its attacks into the duel while leaving the other guy free to throw his attacks at the rest of the squad. In this case, straken's fearless isn't that much of an advantage, as the combo squad is more likely to actually win combat (especially when we recall that everybody in the squad gets FNP in the combo's case), and if it doesn't, CCSs are now much more likely to have standards lying around.
Then it's the special rules. FC isn't all that useful for straken, as he's already wounding on 2's anyways against practically everything, and nothing else in his squad has armor-ignoring weapons. Likewise, as power blobs are basically dead, FC isn't going to be all that terribly useful in a 12" bubble either, at least, not in a world of MSU foot guard. Countercharge is the better rule, here, but 6th ed has basically relegated the CCS to the role of a counterattack unit, and really, it's just giving +1A to Straken (the others are less important), and that's when he doesn't get the charge (which doesn't seem that likely). Of course, countercharge certainly helps with MSU foot spam.
Meanwhile, though, the priest gives preferred enemy. 7 rerollable attacks on the charge is much better than 5 attacks at +1S, even at lower WS, and given that you're more likely to get a charge in with a counterattack unit, this makes the priest seem more useful.
I'm not really seeing how the priest and fist combo is "not even close" to straken, and, the more I think about it, the more I'm favoring the combo over straken.
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This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2012/07/18 01:18:44
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2012/07/18 00:21:12
Subject: officer's weapon for choppy CCS
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Executing Exarch
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Another thing to consider is krak grenades. If for some horrific reason you find yourself fighting against some big bad MC, having krak grenades for your regular dudes can be handy. You can also throw them in overwatch and they will allow you to wreck most tanks that get near.
If you are going to have bodyguards and other advisers, I would defiantly take them. If not, it is a good sink for 5 spare points.
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The most important rule of 40K-Page XVII of the 6th edition rulebook, the figure at the top right of the page. "Shake hands with your opponent and thank them for a good battle and fun experience." Then go out for a beer.
Shine bright like Iyanden |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2012/07/18 00:47:40
Subject: officer's weapon for choppy CCS
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Frenzied Berserker Terminator
In your squads, doing the chainsword tango
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Shadelkan wrote:Still, I don't understand why you believe blobs no longer work; they do, it merely requires reworking.
Surely someone else had a chuckle at this  ?
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2012/07/18 01:30:59
Subject: officer's weapon for choppy CCS
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Rough Rider with Boomstick
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Sorry, Alairos, I actually don't think Bodyguards are characters. I wish they were, so much, because that would be awesome from both gameplay and storytelling purposes. I was referring to other advisers.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2012/07/18 01:46:27
Subject: Re:officer's weapon for choppy CCS
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Fighter Pilot
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I can just picture some big baddie issuing a challenge and the officer ordering the poor astropath to his death.
As much as i love Straken Alairos does make a well thought out case for the combo squad. In theory they both seem to have advantages and disadvantages in certain scenarios. Two things caught my eye as i read it. The combo has a great advantage of being able to respond to challenges while still dishing out attacks to the challengers squad but it seems best if one doesnt charge their CCS into CC with a dedicated healthy assualt unit. My point being, straken can survive more opponents that are most likely to be faced. Thats just my thoughts but im very interested in both tactics.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2012/07/18 02:31:52
Subject: Re:officer's weapon for choppy CCS
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Decrepit Dakkanaut
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Jihallah wrote:Shadelkan wrote:Still, I don't understand why you believe blobs no longer work; they do, it merely requires reworking.
Surely someone else had a chuckle at this  ?
For some reason I overlooked this. I'll just give mah linky.
lonedrow02 wrote:I can just picture some big baddie issuing a challenge and the officer ordering the poor astropath to his death.
LOL!
"Forward you abblative fool!"
Poor astropath hunches over and begrudgingly does his duty. To be fair, though, he should have seen it coming...
Plus, I like the idea that once the astropath is eviscerated, the officer just goes down to the next adviser in line.
"Well, there went my astropath. Where's my officer of the fleet?"
Anyways, I think that I can sum up everything I've learned in this article:
In an emerging world of MSU guard now in both foot and mech lists, some commanders will still find it useful to have at least SOMETHING that's good in close combat, just in case. For the choppier guard commander, the best option for this has returned to a counter-attack choppy CCS. It alone has the benefits of abblative wounds, decent weapon options, and overall killing power to be able to pack a decent counter-punch. That you're already likely bringing a CCS adds icing to the cake.
While there are many possible options that spring to mind, there are three that really stand out.
STRAKEN
Replace the senior officer with Straken.
Straken is still a pretty solid choice, much like he was in 5th edition. He is still, however, pretty expensive, throwing down nearly 100 points for a single mini.
The biggest advantage that Straken has over other options is his indivisibility. Against shooting attacks, every sniper or precise shot is landing on the big man himself, and there is no opportunity to kill off one of two models and thus reduce the amount of killing power before close combat happens. In close combat, as there is only one serious close combat model here, 100% of the nasty attacks are going to be able to be brought to the duel. With multiple models, someone is going to have to sit it out and watch. Straken is the best option for someone really wanting to win challenges.
The biggest disadvantage, however, is his indivisibility. With all the eggs in one basket, it's possible to shut down 100% of the killing power with a single mind war or gifts of chaos. This is an especially big deal given that Straken doesn't have eternal warrior, and is a single power fist punch away from the whole unit collapsing. More importantly, Straken lacks flexibility. He may be good in a challenge, but when he's in one, he HAS to direct all of his attacks against who he's dueling against. In the case of the other options, multiple models frees up a bunch of heavy-hitting attacks to be used against the rest of the squad, which helps prevent overkill and makes the squad more likely to win close combat over all.
Of course, Straken does come with some other interesting things. Furious charge just got a lot worse, given that you're not likely to have power blobs to use it on, and it's really only giving Straken +1S (the rest of the guys in the squad don't really matter), and Straken already hurts most things on 2's anyways. Likewise, fearless isn't that big of an advantage, as other options are more likely to win close combat (especially if there's a medic around, reducing the CCSs casualties). Countercharge is likewise not going to be useful for a unit that is in a counterattack role, but it certainly will be somewhat useful in a world of MSU foot guard spam.
PRIEST
Add a ministorum priest with an eviscerator, a power fist for the officer, and a medic to the squad.
In short, this returns us to the 4th edition choppy CCS. The biggest advantage of this setup over Straken is that there is just more stuff here. There are more wounds. There are more attacks. There are more models.
It also has the reverse of the indivisibility of Straken. With this setup, you have the ability to accept (or issue) a challenge with the priest, allowing the officer to go off and cause a bunch of casualties on something else. This is especially important against challengers who have power fists, as said fist is wasted on a model with W1 and a 4++, at least compared to sucker-punching Straken. That you can lead a challenge with the officer and glorious intervention with the priest is a further plus. On the other hand, of course, it's possible to pick out the priest with a sniper rifle. The 4++ again helps, but it's still a real risk.
Meanwhile, this loadout gives you a medic. Straken may be beefy with T4 and a 3+ save, but a 5+ FNP goes a long way towards easing the pain of a 5+ save. More importantly, this also gives FNP to everybody else in the squad, which means tougher abblative wounds, and less ability for sniper rifles to pick out other guys (like a standard bearer, for example). More importantly, FNP still works on someone in a challenge, which makes the dueler better, so long as the medic survives.
Finally, there's the priestly buff of preferred enemy, which is much better than Straken's buffs. 7 rerollable attacks on the charge is much better than 5 attacks at +1S, even at lower WS, and given that you're more likely to get a charge in with a counterattack unit, this makes the priest seem more useful.
KELL
Add Kell, and a powerfist to the senior officer.
Kell alone (without bothering with Creed) is a often overlooked option, despite the fact that it really shouldn't be.
Kell gives you all of the advantages of divisibility of the priest, without running the risk of the second character getting picked off by a single stray sniper rifle shot. Kell also gives you the most wounds, and he also gives you the most attacks.
Kell also comes with the interesting fact of coming with both a power weapon and a power fist. This means that he's the most flexible in a challenge, being able to attack a powerfist character before he gets to attack (like straken), while still having the option of hitting someone with the fist.
More interestingly, the new various kinds of power weapons actually become an option for Kell. For example, power maces are terrible because concussive isn't usually useful, and they're only Ap4. Here, though, if you really need the Ap, you can always use the fist, while also having the option of using the mace when you don't. Furthermore, concussive actually kind of makes sense with a multi-wound model like Kell, as you can hit the bad guy with your mace and then strike simultaneously with the fist the next turn. Meanwhile, the spear also almost makes sense here. The disadvantages of the spear becoming worthless after the charge are seriously ameliorated by being able to back that up with a power fist in subsequent turns.
Then there's also the Kell buffs. Odds are, you're already taking a serious interest in bringing a standard, which Kell already has rolled into his price. Furthermore, being able to make HWSs and the like actually pass their orders makes the CCS a better officer squad, not just a CC beatstick.
What really kills Kell, of course, is the lack of eviscerator-style attacks. Yes, it's now possible to glance vehicles to death in close combat, but with Kell you're fishing for 4's while an eviscerator just kills it dead. Krak grenades can fill a lot of this gap, but it's not the same. Likewise, while its buffs make the CCS better in general, Kell offers no proper close combat buffs, which is rather unfortunate.
OTHER OPTIONS
Yarrick is another option, and, to be honest, he's basically the same as before. His ability to cast stubborn onto nearby squads means that he's your only real choice if, for whatever reason, you still want to make power blobs work in 6th ed. In the end, Yarrick is still Yarrick - a crazy old beatstick with an eye-watering price tag.
The same is true of Nork. Not much has changed here. He's now another model who can take a challenge (and by take a challenge, I mean sit on it for several turns while the rest of your squad beats face). He's still expensive, though.
I've already heard about people taking a 2x powerfist lord commissar, but I'm not terribly impressed myself. A properly kitted lord commissar costs more than any of the aforementioned options (well, except yarrick), and you lose the abblative wounds and ability to issue orders. All for something that isn't demonstrably better in close combat than other options. Plus, he takes up the warlord ability from the CCS, which is somewhat unfortunate.
And, of course, you can do the deathstar. Straken and Kell, Straken and a couple of priests, among lots of options. It would be easy to spend way over 300 points on this, which will make it rather beaty, but it doesn't gain much durability while its points costs soars. The only way that this would be even remotely viable is with a land raider (which you can now take thanks to allies), but this means you're now spending upwards of 600 points. But why stop there when you can also ally Draigo or some other properly beaty CC HQ into the mix?
Like in the past, putting more points into a CCS isn't always the best idea.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2012/07/18 04:53:09
Subject: officer's weapon for choppy CCS
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Lone Wolf Sentinel Pilot
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Maybe holding back with sniper Vets and Basilisks would be better than trying CC at all unless they are inevitably going to end up in a slugfest somewhere.
1: Take snipers (Ratlings or Vets), Basilisks, LRBTs, and drop multiple squads of stormtroopers. Possible or not?
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Seeing a squad of veterens swoop in in a Vendetta, secure the area, deliver that math assignment, and extract within 2 minutes would be freaking sweet.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2012/07/18 06:06:51
Subject: officer's weapon for choppy CCS
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Decrepit Dakkanaut
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Well, there are two main reasons why I would bother with CC at all.
The first is because it opens up opportunities. Guard may not be running across the table screaming anymore, but that doesn't make close combat worthless. If that monstrous creature is left with one or two wounds after shooting, perhaps it would be worth the risk of close combat if you could make sure that it died on your turn, rather than giving your opponent another chance to use it at his leisure. Maybe your opponent is wrecking your stuff with a single model hidden in a bigger squad that your snipers just aren't able to flush out that will require a duel to settle.
There are lots of possible times that having the option of close combat is a good thing, as it allows you to exploit opportunities that might otherwise be unexploitable without SOME sort of close combat power in your army.
Secondly, close combat is awesome. Gunlines are, and always will be boring. Close combat is trickier to get to work right (especially in this edition), and much more epic when it does work right.
Between taking another three guys who sit still and plink with sniper rifles and taking a 60 year old maniac that rips apart a land raider with pure insanity and a 10-foot-long chainsaw sword, you know which one you deep down want to take.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2012/07/18 06:15:45
Subject: officer's weapon for choppy CCS
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Stealthy Space Wolves Scout
Auckland, New Zealand
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You can take allies for melee. Guard should stick to their knitting.
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 I am Blue/White Take The Magic Dual Colour Test - Beta today! Created with Rum and Monkey's Personality Test Generator.I'm both orderly and rational. I value control, information, and order. I love structure and hierarchy, and will actively use whatever power or knowledge I have to maintain it. At best, I am lawful and insightful; at worst, I am bureaucratic and tyrannical.

I find passive aggressive messages in people's signatures quite amusing. |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2012/07/18 06:18:56
Subject: officer's weapon for choppy CCS
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Decrepit Dakkanaut
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Not everyone is so spineless as to go running for Draigo at every perceived weakness in their codex. Guard can still do close combat, and don't require non-guard armies as a crutch.
Certainly guard are now unquestionably a shooty army with the passing of power blobs, and guard armies will likely fare better by focusing predominantly on shooting. That doesn't mean close combat is useless, and that guard are hopeless in close combat.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2012/07/18 06:30:43
Subject: officer's weapon for choppy CCS
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Stealthy Space Wolves Scout
Auckland, New Zealand
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In the second edition Angels of Death Codex there's a fluff piece where a Blood Angel Captain and an Assault Squad join an Imperial Guard detachment in order to slaughter a bunch of traitors and heretics.
I wouldn't use Draigo, but I would be inclined to recreate that piece.
That said, my Space Marines may be joined by Yarrick and a few squads of Guard to recreate their exploits on the plains of Armageddon.
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 I am Blue/White Take The Magic Dual Colour Test - Beta today! Created with Rum and Monkey's Personality Test Generator.I'm both orderly and rational. I value control, information, and order. I love structure and hierarchy, and will actively use whatever power or knowledge I have to maintain it. At best, I am lawful and insightful; at worst, I am bureaucratic and tyrannical.

I find passive aggressive messages in people's signatures quite amusing. |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2012/07/18 13:23:28
Subject: officer's weapon for choppy CCS
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Rough Rider with Boomstick
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I disagree with the assessment that Blobs are worthless, for reasons I've already posted in a couple of different threads.
Back to topic, though. The Priest is actually quite safe from anything but challenges thanks to Look Out, Sir! 2+ LOS! plus a 4++, (and possibly a 5+ FNP) after all the to hit and wound requirements makes me not worry to much about directed attacks on independent characters too much, even those with one wound.
Another consideration, if you're looking to get a lot of killing power from independent characters (priests), what about the PCS as prime counterpunch unit? You can have a Junior Officer w/ PF and Commissar w/ PF for 95 points, and you can still get a Priest with Eviscerator and a Medic. This is further dividing up PF swings between models, which certainly makes it easier to lose swings, but does give you quite a few to begin with (10 PF or Eviscerator swings on the charge). It's also scoring, which can be useful. It's a bit less heroic, I guess, because it's more expendable, but this is useful in a Guard army. With 3 important models, it's also less of an issue to give one of them a power weapon, so that you can have one of your models swinging at Initiative.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2012/07/18 13:59:01
Subject: Re:officer's weapon for choppy CCS
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Lone Wolf Sentinel Pilot
Sitting on the roof of my house with a shotgun, and a six pack of beers
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I'm not sure if Ailaros mean all blobs are dead, from reading his battle reports in the past I think it's probably more a reference to the way he used to play eg all power blobs, of course there are still advantages to blobs.
I think a CCS with PF, medic and priest would be fairly solid especially if you put Bodyguards in there as wel. It's not going to excel but hey.
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PM me and ask me about Warpath Wargames Norwich or send me an email
"If we hit that bullseye, the rest of the dominoes should fall like a house of cards. Checkmate!" Zapp Brannigan
33rd Jalvene Outlanders & 112th Task Force 6600 Points (last count)
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2012/07/18 15:43:11
Subject: officer's weapon for choppy CCS
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Decrepit Dakkanaut
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SpankHammer III wrote:I'm not sure if Ailaros mean all blobs are dead, from reading his battle reports in the past I think it's probably more a reference to the way he used to play eg all power blobs, of course there are still advantages to blobs.
Certainly power blobs are deader than regular blobs, but blobs require a hidden commissar, which you no longer have access to. Without hidden commissars anywhere, blobs are dead everywhere.
Biophysical wrote:I disagree with the assessment that Blobs are worthless, for reasons I've already posted in a couple of different threads.
Where?
Biophysical wrote:Back to topic, though. The Priest is actually quite safe from anything but challenges thanks to Look Out, Sir! 2+ LOS! plus a 4++, (and possibly a 5+ FNP) after all the to hit and wound requirements makes me not worry to much about directed attacks on independent characters too much, even those with one wound.
Oh, right. I forgot that the bodyguard can also shield the priest. That guy's going to be busy...
Of course, priests still have the problem of current-codex priests in that they are susceptible to chainsword attacks. I guess I'd almost always have the priest in a challenge here, then, I guess. Not only does the 4++ make him a good choice against the tough stuff, but it also keeps him safe from the other goobers in the enemy squad.
Biophysical wrote:Another consideration, if you're looking to get a lot of killing power from independent characters (priests), what about the PCS as prime counterpunch unit? You can have a Junior Officer w/ PF and Commissar w/ PF for 95 points, and you can still get a Priest with Eviscerator and a Medic. This is further dividing up PF swings between models, which certainly makes it easier to lose swings, but does give you quite a few to begin with (10 PF or Eviscerator swings on the charge).
Hmm, this is interesting. I suppose a punchy PCS did get a boost here. The W1 of the officer is rather tragic, but it would, in fact, be the cheapest way to throw down power fist attacks.
Hmm...
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2012/07/18 17:23:11
Subject: officer's weapon for choppy CCS
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Rough Rider with Boomstick
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Various posts of mine have hit on various aspects of the powerblob, but it comes down to this:
1.) You use a Lord Commissar, who is an IC.
2.) ICs get a 2+ LOS! roll to avoid damage, including directed hits from snipers or characters, shooting or close combat. This is in addition to his other defenses.
3.) You can abuse challenges better than a lot of armies due to the variety of characters in the squad (probably 3 Sgts in addition to the Commissar).
You lose the old Commissar's absolute safety in favor of very good safety for the Lord Commissar, and you pay 40 more points, but get your attacks at WS 5 with a PF instead of a PW, and you get Ld 10. It's not perfect, and won't allow widespread use of blobs in the same way as 5th edition, but it's better in a lot of ways (more killing power with the PF and possibility of Power Axes).
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2012/07/18 17:26:39
Subject: officer's weapon for choppy CCS
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Decrepit Dakkanaut
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Well, so you can have A power blob now, if you want it. That other HQ slot is still going to be a CCS.
They're still a lot worse, though, as all the new cover rules screw over foot lists in general, and the sergeants can still be picked out with precision.
It feels much more like you can now build your entire army around a single power blob, rather than running a self-supporting power blob army.
I'll still pass...
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2012/07/18 17:46:20
Subject: officer's weapon for choppy CCS
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Lone Wolf Sentinel Pilot
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Should the rest of the CCS swap out for pistols/CCW, keep the lasguns, or get some sort of plasma/meltagun?
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Seeing a squad of veterens swoop in in a Vendetta, secure the area, deliver that math assignment, and extract within 2 minutes would be freaking sweet.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2012/07/18 17:48:29
Subject: officer's weapon for choppy CCS
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Rough Rider with Boomstick
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Fair enough, although if I remember correctly, you used a lot of 21 man blobs. The regular Commissars are not so massively vulnerable, I think. You can keep them in the back, and use your low Guard initiative to your advantage, in that the enemy strikes, then your Commissars and Sergeants make their pile-in move on their own initiative. If you set it up right, you get full swings without them ever getting a chance to hit one of your power weapons.
Of all the issues you've listed, cover might be the one that the new rules do not mitigate in any way. Viability then comes down to terrain commonly seen in your local establishment.
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