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I assume not, since the faq says Librarians (and Mephiston), and doesn't mention psyker mastery level for the Furioso, but i thought i'd asked, as it's still a librarian

I would say that Furioso Librarian would be Mastery level 1, as, like you said, it is still a lirarian, and in the codex it ststes the Librarian may cast one physic power a turn.

So I would say yes

Furioso is not listed separately since it is treated as a Librarian for all psychic intents and purposes.

He is never said to be treated as a Librarian as far as I can see.

I think there is a distinction between a Blood Angels Librarian and a Furioso Librarian, by RAW I would say no, the Dread can't swap out powers given what is currently in the FAQ, but given just about every other psyker in the game can swap powers, I would personally allow an opponent to do so if he wanted, seeing this as an oversight on GWs part.

He is definitely Mastery level 1, since we are told to assume mastery level 1 unless otherwise noted and the only other yardstick we have (number of powers he can use per turn) also makes him Mastery level 1.

He is called a Furioso Librarian. It is a Librarian in Dreadnought armor. The description even says he is a Librarian. I don't see how he does not count as a Librarian in the phrase "all Librarians".

Drunkspleen wrote:He is never said to be treated as a Librarian as far as I can see.

I think there is a distinction between a Blood Angels Librarian and a Furioso Librarian, by RAW I would say no, the Dread can't swap out powers given what is currently in the FAQ, but given just about every other psyker in the game can swap powers, I would personally allow an opponent to do so if he wanted, seeing this as an oversight on GWs part.

He is definitely Mastery level 1, since we are told to assume mastery level 1 unless otherwise noted and the only other yardstick we have (number of powers he can use per turn) also makes him Mastery level 1.

The 6th ed FAQ says "A Blood Angels Librarian (including Mephisophipants) may use blah blah balh). There is no model in the Blood Angel codex called "Blood Angels Librarian".

There is the:
-Furioso Librarian
-Librarian

Obviously the dreadnugget can swap his powers out as well.

Or only Mephistank can.

YOU MAKE DA CALL.

A Blood Angels Librarian is a "Librarian" from codex "Blood Angels", it is not a Furioso Librarian, nor is it an allied Librarian from any other codex.

Strictly speaking the Furioso Librarian's model type doesn't even have Librarian in the same, since his statline and unit selection name is that of the Furioso Dreadnought, and he just has a Furioso Librarian upgrade.

Wrong. In the unit description it has its own section dedicated to the Furioso Librarian's special rules. When you purchase the upgrade the Furioso Dreadnought becomes a Furioso Librarian. It even says it in the upgrade description. "Upgrade to a Furioso Librarian..." The unit is called a Furioso Librarian, just because it is an upgrade doesn't change the fact that he is still a Librarian. Does an Epistolary not get Mastery Level 2 because it is just an upgrade and the model is never purchased as an Epistolary but upgraded to one?

The model type is Walker. A Librarian's model type is Infantry. By your logic no Librarian is a Librarian since their model type is never Librarian.

Strawman argument, because LH for PM2 is the number of powers a turn you can use, so is always PML2 as an epistolary

They also never stated model type. Ever. Just name

A BA Librarian is a BA librarian. A furioso is a BA Furioso Librarian

Just as a storm bolter cannot use special ammunition because it isnt a bolter, a BA Furioso Librarian is NOT a BA Librarian

I wasn't talking about unit type which is a game defined term.

Regarding the Epistolary, thank you, that's a great point that adds weight to my argument, an Epistolary is still a "librarian" despite having bought an upgrade called Epistolary, because he still uses the librarian statline, and still uses the Librarian unit entry.

Similarly, a Furioso Librarian is still not a Librarian, but rather, a Furioso Dreadnought, since he uses the Furioso Dreadnought statline and Furioso Dreadnought unit entry (and even still, he could never be a "Librarian" because at most be was a "Furioso Librarian")

If I were to accept the stance that he changes into a Furioso Librarian type of model by taking that upgrade, I would have to insist the same applies to an Epistolary, and as he is no longer a "Librarian" but rather an "Epistolary" he would be ineligible to swap his powers.

Drunkspleen wrote:
If I were to accept the stance that he changes into a Furioso Librarian type of model by taking that upgrade, I would have to insist the same applies to an Epistolary, and as he is no longer a "Librarian" but rather an "Epistolary" he would be ineligible to swap his powers.

So, by your own logic, other things that are upgraded no longer count as what they were to begin with?

A Space wolf Rune priest upgrades to Master of Runes, meaning he's now Mastery Level 2. This in your logic means he can't use the Chooser of the Slain or his Runic Weapon because he's no longer a Rune Priest, but a Master of the Runes, and all rule references in those rules are for Rune Priests?

I'm sorry, but thats just redicilous.

A Librarian is a Librarian with mastery Level 1, an Epistolary is a Librarian with mastery level 2, a Furioso Dreadnought Librarian is a Librarian inside a Dreadnought.

Or are you going to argue that a Furioso Dreadnought is no longer a Dreadnought, and doesnt work like all other Dreadnoughts with the additional rules stated for Furiosos?

Hes still a psyker and is still a blood angel libby but in a dreadnought so why wouldn't he be able to exchange? Question is how many powers does he get cause it says BA librarians may take 2 for powers from BRB right?

He is a BA Furioso Librarian, not a BA Librarian

Or are you saying that a storm bolter can fire specialist rounds?

Tjolle79 wrote:

Drunkspleen wrote:
If I were to accept the stance that he changes into a Furioso Librarian type of model by taking that upgrade, I would have to insist the same applies to an Epistolary, and as he is no longer a "Librarian" but rather an "Epistolary" he would be ineligible to swap his powers.

So, by your own logic, other things that are upgraded no longer count as what they were to begin with?

No, my logic is quite the opposite, a thing is what it is unless an upgrade changes it's statline to something with a different name.

A Space wolf Rune priest upgrades to Master of Runes, meaning he's now Mastery Level 2. This in your logic means he can't use the Chooser of the Slain or his Runic Weapon because he's no longer a Rune Priest, but a Master of the Runes, and all rule references in those rules are for Rune Priests?

I'm sorry, but thats just redicilous.

It would be wouldn't it, which is why I claim he is still a Master of Runes, and an upgraded Furioso Dreadnought is still a Furioso Dreadnought

So the BA furioso librarian does not have a BA librarian inside of it?

Irrelevant. What is the unit name?

BA librarian /= BA Furioso Librarian. Or are you saying a Storm bolter is a bolter? What about a heavy bolter?

Thats a real far stretch, if you read the codex it clearly states that it is a BA libby in the dreadnought. It also says hes a psyker and has 2 powers, guess it just depends on the type of person you play against, personally I think it kinda be douche baggish not to let the guy switch out powers, but then again I dont do much tournament play just fun pickup games.

nosferatu1001 wrote:. Or are you saying a Storm bolter is a bolter? What about a heavy bolter?

It IS still a Bolt Weapon though, and there are different types of Bolt Weapons. Just as there are different types of Librarians.

Tjolle79 wrote:

nosferatu1001 wrote:. Or are you saying a Storm bolter is a bolter? What about a heavy bolter?

It IS still a Bolt Weapon though, and there are different types of Bolt Weapons. Just as there are different types of Librarians.

Irrelevant.

Specialist weapons affect Bolters. Do you get to use them in Storm Bolters?

BA Librarians get to swap out powers. Do BA Furioso Librarians?

If you are inconsistent with your answer, explain.

A bolt pistol, Bolter, storm bolter, etc. are bolt weapons and granted it makes sense to be able to use the bullets in any of these but when have things in 40k made sense. In the rules and the BRB its labelled as a boltgun and thats the only bolt weapon that can use the special ammo. Dont see how that is relevant to saying you cant switch powers because he must not be a BA libby in that dreadnought chassis.

So, a Space Marine that is upgraded to a Veteran Sergeant is no longer a Space Marine either, because his name has changed and he has a different statline? Now if something said it would affect Space Marines, he'd be immune?

I'm done with this discussion. Thanks for playing (and thanks to me for helping you up your postcount :p)

Hot-shot lasguns are not lasguns for the purpose of FRFSRF.

Okay topic is definitely drifting...

yes, because people like you BloodKnight, insist on creating arguments out of fluff and calling people douche bags, rather than the rules.

Threads inevitably drift when you do so.

I care less about post count. Its generally meaningless.

Space Marine - the listing is "Space Marine" and "Space Marine Sergeant", so your argument doesnt hold up.

Bloodknight - yet your argument claims that a BA Librarian IS the same thing as a BA Furioso Librarian. Given a StormBolter uses the same .75 ammo as a bolter, why cant it use the specialist ammunition? Because the rule specifies the specific wargear item "Bolter"

The FAQ specifies that ONLY a BA Librarian, which is a defined name in the BA codex, may swap powers. A BA Furioso Librarian is NOT a BA Librarian, because the name is not the same.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Eldarguy88 wrote:Hot-shot lasguns are not lasguns for the purpose of FRFSRF.

Exactly.

Bloodnkght - calling people douche bags for following the plain as day rules doesnt help. It also isnt driftiing - people are telling you the actual rules, not what you are house ruling.

I have not called anyone here a douchebag all i said is that there are people out there who act like that when it comes to rules, everyone knows this. If it was taken wrongly then I apologize cause it wasnt an attack on anyone.

"personally I think it kinda be douche baggish not to let the guy switch out powers"

Implies anyone thinking you play by the rules by default is a douchebag, no?

Thanks for the apology, however you have to be careful on a text only forum which is dedicated to discussing rules. Please do not mistake the discussions on here for how people play a game - the two dont always intersect. This forum is an ideal place to thrash out rules when a game isnt in progress, to try to come to a common understanding of what the rulesa ctually say

While houserules are fine, and *every* place has them, understanding when you are using a houserule is critical - it avoids awkwardness when going to a tournament in a new area, or when playing at a new shop. All those unstated assumptions youre making can cause friction if they run contrary to the local playstyle!

nosferatu1001 wrote:Thanks for the apology, however you have to be careful on a text only forum which is dedicated to discussing rules. Please do not mistake the discussions on here for how people play a game - the two dont always intersect. This forum is an ideal place to thrash out rules when a game isnt in progress, to try to come to a common understanding of what the rulesa ctually say
While houserules are fine, and *every* place has them, understanding when you are using a houserule is critical - it avoids awkwardness when going to a tournament in a new area, or when playing at a new shop. All those unstated assumptions youre making can cause friction if they run contrary to the local playstyle!

This makes a big difference, im new here so i just assumed by the angry rants that there a lotta mean players on here lol.

Man, I go to sleep, and this thread explodes lol!

I am leaning towards the Furioso not being able to swap for powers (it matters since i'd try to use it in a tourney).

I believe they could have phrased it better in the faq like such

"A Librarian (including Mephiston) chosen from Codex: Blood Angels... etc"

That would have excluded the Furioso, for the reasons people have been using as such; The Furioso Librarian is not a Librarian.

Since the Faq is worded as such that it says "Blood Angels Librarian," you would have to see what kind of units have the Librarian in the name, because there is no specific "Blood Angels Librarian" entry, which i think would include the Furioso.

There are only two things that I think helps towards clarification (on a FAQ... sigh) is that it distinguishes Mephiston as being a librarian, but not the Furioso. That would swing it in the non-inclusive favor.

Here's the catch though. You'll note in the FAQ where it states this:

Q. What Master Level is a Blood Angels Librarian?

A. Mastery Level 1. An Epistolary is Mastery Level 2. They both know two powers.

Nowhere else in the FAQ does it describe what master level a Furioso Librarian is. And since it fits the description (Blood Angels Librarian, knows two powers, can't get epistolary so it's mastery level1)....

This is what causes me to believe it can swap powers.

Is my reasoning sound?

No worries. Just remember - this is meant to be a friendly, if occasionally heated, discussion on what the rulebook ACTUALLY says.

That way if you dont agree with the rules, you at least can explain the difference between the written and what you would prefer.

IN this case there is *clear* precedent that <prefix> "thing" isnt the same as <thing> - a storm bolter cannot use specialist rounds, a furioso librarian isnt allowed to swap powers.