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Okay this is the situation.

Fateweaver is swooping on the turn he arrives from deepstrike.
It now comes over to my turn.

I shoot at him with 1 unit, fail to ground. Then another and Succeed in grounding him.


And now i want to shoot at him with a 3rd unit.


Does it roll as though it is still flying? And if so, does he take another grounding check?

IIRC from a previous thread on Grounding FMC, Grounded is a third "movement" type. and as such, once grounded, is no longer swooping.

Excellent, the problem being though, we have one player who says he takes one grounding check and then once he has been grounded, he takes no more for that phase and still counts as being swooping....

Personally, i think its a crock o' Gak.


But there we go ^^

If you search the forum, you should be able to find it, I recommend at least skimming over it so you can bring up counter-arguments.

there is quite a discusson about that.
a pretty good case can be made for either interpretation.

But that player is cracked. Either it is still swooping, which case it is hit on 6's, but can take grounding tests; or it is no longer swooping, so can be hit normally, but no more grounding tests.

He can't have it both ways.

Either of you fine gentlemen fancy flying over here to tell him this ?

I'm a deamon player and I use flying circus all the time.
Claiming a FMC is still swooping after being grounded is fething moronic. Give him a slap

Don't have to, it is in the book.

If the model is swooping, the book says it is Hard to Hit, and can be Grounded.

There is nothing in there about only being grounded once. There is nothing in there about splitting it up, it is a package deal. Both or neither.



Automatically Appended Next Post:

Testify wrote:I'm a deamon player and I use flying circus all the time.
Claiming a FMC is still swooping after being grounded is fething moronic. Give him a slap

Its worse than that, he wants the Hard to Hit benefit, but not the Grounding.

I can see the argument for/against Grounding/Swooping. But you can't have it both ways.

Testify wrote:I'm a deamon player and I use flying circus all the time.
Claiming a FMC is still swooping after being grounded is fething moronic. Give him a slap

I'm of the opinion that claiming that a FMC enters a non-existent third form of movement after failing a grounding test is moronic, but to each his own.

undertow wrote:

Testify wrote:I'm a deamon player and I use flying circus all the time.
Claiming a FMC is still swooping after being grounded is fething moronic. Give him a slap

I'm of the opinion that claiming that a FMC enters a non-existent third form of movement after failing a grounding test is moronic, but to each his own.

The rulebook specifically states that FMC becomes grounded, then explains what "grounded" mean. Please read it before calling me a moron.

Testify wrote:

undertow wrote:

Testify wrote:I'm a deamon player and I use flying circus all the time.
Claiming a FMC is still swooping after being grounded is fething moronic. Give him a slap

I'm of the opinion that claiming that a FMC enters a non-existent third form of movement after failing a grounding test is moronic, but to each his own.

The rulebook specifically states that FMC becomes grounded, then explains what "grounded" mean. Please read it before calling me a moron.

That's my point. It specifically states only that the model loses Jink and can be assaulted. That's it, it does not say the model is no longer swooping.

As I stated earlier, it was pretty well discussed already. Here is the link:
http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/0/460633.page

Happyjew wrote:As I stated earlier, it was pretty well discussed already. Here is the link:
http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/0/460633.page

It may have been well discussed in that thread, but I don't see anything approaching a consensus there.

Chris Swaine wrote:I'll raise it with the uk tournament FAQ council to get some appropriate minds thinking about it not the hordes of stupid that are on dakka.

Well guys, apparently, your opinion means gak all anyway....


http://forum.rollwithit.org.uk/index.php

undertow wrote:

Testify wrote:

undertow wrote:

Testify wrote:I'm a deamon player and I use flying circus all the time.
Claiming a FMC is still swooping after being grounded is fething moronic. Give him a slap

I'm of the opinion that claiming that a FMC enters a non-existent third form of movement after failing a grounding test is moronic, but to each his own.

The rulebook specifically states that FMC becomes grounded, then explains what "grounded" mean. Please read it before calling me a moron.

That's my point. It specifically states only that the model loses Jink and can be assaulted. That's it, it does not say the model is no longer swooping.

That's because it says it's a Grounded Monstrous Creature. If it's a grounded monstrous creature, it cant' be simultaneously be a swooping monstrous creature can it?
This is one of those moments where common sense and RAW are in agreement, stop trying to find loopholes.

By raw a grounded monster is still swooping (thus hard to hit) and thus can be grounded again, and again, and again...
By "how every sane person (and TO AFAIK) plays it" once it falls down its treated like a ground monster.

HoverBoy wrote:By raw a grounded monster is still swooping (thus hard to hit) and thus can be grounded again, and again, and again...

It's not. The rules specifically state that it is now a Grounded Monstrous Creature.

Yea but that in no way says it stops swooping, which is exactly the screw up GW made to make these arguments possible.

Implicit in the statement that x is y, is that x is no longer z.
If something modifies your initiative to 10, it doesn't need to be said that your initiative is longer 4. If a flying monsterous creature is grounded, it can no longer be swooping as it is grounded.

Testify wrote:

HoverBoy wrote:By raw a grounded monster is still swooping (thus hard to hit) and thus can be grounded again, and again, and again...

It's not. The rules specifically state that it is now a Grounded Monstrous Creature.

And then the rules specifically state that a grounded monstrous creature loses Jink and can be assaulted in the subsequent assault phase. In all of your replies to this topic in every thread it has come up I don't think I've seen you address this. You just keep arguing for an implicit third state and ignore the part that shoots a hole in your logic.

If GW intended swooping FMCs to lose Hard to Hit after failing a grounding test, they would have added that to the list of effects. Or they could have simply said if you fail a grounding test, the FMC is forced into gliding mode until it's next movement phase. The rules for FMCs are poorly written and need of a FAQ, but until we get one, I'll be arguing for still being Hard to Hit after failing a grounding test.

I'm happy to play it as they are no longer swooping if my opponent has a problem with it.

Testify: Your entire logic only holds if Swooping and Grounded are mutually exclusive. (like Init 4 and init 1 would be)

Unfortunately, we don't know that they are. This is compounded because the beginning of the FMC rules only give two options, not three. So there is no way of knowing if Grounded is a third option, or just a modification of swooping.



"Implicit in the statement that x is y, is that x is no longer z. "
If a unit has Rending, and then gets preferred enemy.... does that mean it loses rending?

undertow wrote:
If GW intended swooping FMCs to lose Hard to Hit after failing a grounding test, they would have added that to the list of effects. Or they could have simply said if you fail a grounding test, the FMC is forced into gliding mode until it's next movement phase.

So because it doesn't explicitly state one thing, you're assuming it explicitly states another?

By the same logic, the FMC is grounded for the entire game, since at no point does it say that it ceases to be grounded.

If you assume that grounded replaces swoop, then at your own movement phase swoop/gliding replaces grounded.

Otherwise you swoop, become grounded (at which point you are grounded and swooping), then in your own movement phase you choose to become gliding (note that the rulebook does not state that you cease to be anything at any of these points, so you are now grounded, swooping AND gliding). What happens if you need to be grounded again? You'll become a grounded swooping gliding grounded monsterous creature, eh?

Testify wrote:

undertow wrote:
If GW intended swooping FMCs to lose Hard to Hit after failing a grounding test, they would have added that to the list of effects. Or they could have simply said if you fail a grounding test, the FMC is forced into gliding mode until it's next movement phase.

So because it doesn't explicitly state one thing, you're assuming it explicitly states another?

By the same logic, the FMC is grounded for the entire game, since at no point does it say that it ceases to be grounded.

If you assume that grounded replaces swoop, then at your own movement phase swoop/gliding replaces grounded.

Otherwise you swoop, become grounded (at which point you are grounded and swooping), then in your own movement phase you choose to become gliding (note that the rulebook does not state that you cease to be anything at any of these points, so you are now grounded, swooping AND gliding). What happens if you need to be grounded again? You'll become a grounded swooping gliding grounded monsterous creature, eh?

I don't have the rulebook in front of me, but doesn't it say something like 'you can move normally on your next turn'?

When I see rules that look like this: If X happens, then Y, it seems pretty clear to me that you only can do Y. In this case, Y means that you lose Jink and can be assaulted. That's it. If there were a third mythical movement state called Grounded, then it is defined as "You can't Jink and you can be assaulted in the subsequent assault phase'.

undertow wrote:
When I see rules that look like this: If X happens, then Y, it seems pretty clear to me that you only can do Y. In this case, Y means that you lose Jink and can be assaulted. That's it. If there were a third mythical movement state called Grounded, then it is defined as "You can't Jink and you can be assaulted in the subsequent assault phase'.

Why are you flat out ignoring my rulebook quotes?
"bla bla bla and becomes Grounded. A Grounded Flying Monstrous Creature etc".
It's right. There.

If you insist that it is still swooping, then you must continue the logic and say that it never ever stops swooping - notice the rules do not say anything about choosing how to move invalidating previous movement types. So you could deep-strike turn 1 in swoop mode, then simply glide around thereafter, all the while needing 6s to hit. I bet you're a blast to play against

It seems pretty clear that being grounded is an effect that carries over to your next turn. Swooping and grounded are mutually exclusive states because if the model was still swooping you could not engage it in assault. Since grounded creatures can be engaged in assault they can obviously no longer be swooping.

Kevlar wrote:
It seems pretty clear that being grounded is an effect that carries over to your next turn. Swooping and grounded are mutually exclusive states because if the model was still swooping you could not engage it in assault. Since grounded creatures can be engaged in assault they can obviously no longer be swooping.

RAW citation needed. You can't just say it's "obvious". Prove to me that swooping does not carry on. You can't, because no where in the rulebook does it say that swooping ends.

You're aware of the fact that the precondition for taking Grounding Tests is that the model is Swooping, right?

And you're aware that according to your interpritation of the rules, the model never stops swooping throughout the entire game?

Testify wrote:

Kevlar wrote:
It seems pretty clear that being grounded is an effect that carries over to your next turn. Swooping and grounded are mutually exclusive states because if the model was still swooping you could not engage it in assault. Since grounded creatures can be engaged in assault they can obviously no longer be swooping.

RAW citation needed. You can't just say it's "obvious". Prove to me that swooping does not carry on. You can't, because no where in the rulebook does it say that swooping ends.

Except where it says at the beginning of the FMC's move, the controller chooses either Swooping or Gliding until the model's next turn. Page 49. In plain sight.

the rules make Swooping and Gliding mutually exclusive. They do not do that for Grounding.