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So, this thread was made awhile ago, but it got lost in all the rumor and subsequent explosion of 6th ed onto the scene. As you can see from the link, the main question never really got answered. In my particular case, I'm looking at putting a power weapon on a stormie sarge, and would like to get things fleshed out a bit. I'm not intending to spark a debate about when to use power weapons in a guard army. Starting with the assumption that you ARE taking power weapons (and, I guess, that you're not taking a power fist, as that's always the better option on multiwound I3 models where we can get them), what is the best weapon to take?

Sword: so, it seems to me that there are exactly two uses of this weapon. The first is when you're attacking models that you strike simultaneously with, or attack faster than. In the case of guard, though, this is a rather narrow list of targets, and said targets tend to be ones that an extra kill from a power weapon probably won't be noticed very much (like against a mob of boyz, or something). The other use that I can see for the sword is that it's a power fist killer. It's the only at-initiative weapon with a decent Ap on it. It seems basically designed to enter a challenge against a model with a power fist and then knock it out before it gets to swing.

Of course, guard being weak, a power sword probably isn't going to kill a multi-wound model with a power fist before said power fist knocks the guardsman flat. This means that we're looking at a pretty limited range of targets that won't kill you in a challenge before you get to strike, AND have only W1, AND have an I of only 1 or 2. I'm grasping, but I'm not getting much more than befisted space marine (and the like) sergeants with a power fist.

Axe: The more I think about it, the less I like the axe. To start with, the axe has exactly every problem that the power sword has, except its problems are extended to I2. Most importantly, it doesn't have a chance to kill a power-fisted model BEFORE the power fist gets to swing. You're a bit more likely to have victory with the +S, but you're virtually guaranteeing that the victory will by Pyrrhic. Yes, it does have the tiny boost of being able to put down slightly more wounds, which will help you in future rounds of combat, but come on, how many rounds of combat are you really getting into nowadays? Yes, they retain the Ap2, but this doesn't address the fundamental problem of guard still being terrible against termies, especially of the assault variety, and don't help with the pyrrhic problem either. Perhaps I could see them in a giant power blob, but for the life of me I can't figure out what the point is.

They're powerfists, on flimsy T3 W1 carriers, except they're not even proper powerfists that can at least threaten vehicles.

Lance: I still think this is rubbish. Guardsmen can't guarantee the charge, and off of the charge, it's a power weapon that can't even hurt marines. Really, what's the point?

I suppose, in a way, these guys are the ultimate power fist/axe snipers in a counterattack role, but this has all the problems of a sword, except now its role is more limited.

Mace: So, this is the one that I've actually been taking a shining to.

Firstly, look at the math. Compare 3 power mace attacks against 3 power sword attacks. Against TEq, the mace kills .17 while the sword kills .08 (I'd even note that the axe kills only .21 against THSS termies). Against MEq, the mace does .33 against the sword's .5, and against GEq, the mace does 1.26 compared to the sword's .75. In this case, the mace is nearly as good compared to the other weapons against their prime targets, because the +2S does a lot to ameliorate the problems of only Ap4.

Secondly, if by some crazy random happenstance, you're up against a multiwound model and survive a turn, the concussive would actually be useful, moreso than the small chance of an extra wound for the axe.

Thirdly, it gives the wielder anything to do against vehicles.

I suppose a part of this too is to be realistic about when the weapon will actually be used. Against something with I4 and a power weapon (either in a challenge or backed up by a lot of other attacks/precision striked) a guardsman with a power weapon, at only I3 just isn't going to survive to use the weapon most of the time. The only time they're actually getting to use the weapon is against targets that have equal or worse initiative, or are up against a unit that doesn't have any non-axe power weapon attacks.

It's looking through this lens that I'm having a hard time appraising guard power weapons. When will I ACTUALLY get to use the weapon? What will a power weapon ACTUALLY be good against? I'm kind of waffling, especially on the sword v. mace dilemma, and was wondering what you thought.

I'm thinking of using power maces and swords mixed in a large defensive powerblob with lord commissar. I've been planning on taking the lord commissar anyways for the heavy weapon squads I've been spamming, so it was a natural fit.

As for a specific loadout, maybe something like 2 maces and a sword, with the lord packing a powerfist. Thats a lot of high strength hits that people won't expect from a guard unit (the first time at least ) and solves the main problem i had with guard in CC, getting wounds. Even T4 we wound on 5's, we need all the help we can get. I know that the extra wounds wins out over armor penetration almost every time.

I mean after all, every power blob player remembers the first time they rolled 9 hits, only to get one or 2 wounds on that tac squad. Now when we hit, we can hit them with some serious oomph, and even smack around weaker monstrous creatures and walkers. Then, throw on the concussion on multiwound stuff, and its even more lopsided.

I'm kind of wondering what I ever saw in power axes to be honest. Aside from the fact that the iniative lets them pile in later and AP 2, they don't


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do a whole lot for us. I Say go for the maces! Now we can model our guardsmen with badass hammers! Its a win win!

I think swords still have a place. I say this because there's a lot of MEQs out there, and it is better than the maul against MEQs. That being said, I think the mace is pretty much just as good. It's slightly less good against MEQs, but it's pretty much better against everything else, especially when you consider that there's plenty of stuff out there with invulnerable saves that AP3 won't help against but +2 Strength will. The recent spike in popularity of Necrons suggests also benefits the mace. They've got a lot of 4+ saves, with bad initiative to boot. In regards to axes I think another weakness of the I1 that hasn't been mentioned is often is the the pile-in move. In large squads (not so much with Stormtroopers) the other guys piling in at I3 might prevent the characters that pile in at I1 from getting close enough to swing. If everyone in your squad is at I3 you can keep the Sarge in back, where he is safer from enemy attacks, and then move up on your initiative phase and still get your swings.

Unrelated, I think the mace is a lot cooler. Your sergeant hits like an Ogryn with one, and there's something really satisfying about wounding on 2's or 3's with a Guardsman.

What about power axes in power blobs? That low initiative could actually be a help in combat to make sure they're only getting in base contact after the enemy has already struck. It's not like the sergeants are going to survive much in challenges anyway.

Well, the thing about power blobs that people keep forgetting is, we take wounds from the front, and we get to pick down the line to a degree who gets hit. And besides, how many times have you lost something like 14 guardsmen on the charge and still had a decent chance of coming out on top? Put the power weapons in the 2nd or 3rd row, and after the first row dies off, they'll be able to attack no problem.

That said, you'll need to be extremely careful where you place that commissar.

Right, it's insanely futzy.

You need to keep your sergeants in the second row to prevent you from getting horribly shot up before close combat, and to prevent them from just getting picked out right away once you're in close combat. The important part is that you have to KEEP them in the second row, regardless of what happens (and there will probably be a lot happening).

Once there, though, you have got to keep them at basically exactly 3" away. Too far away and they're not swinging at all. Too close, and they're getting picked out. That it's possible for the other guys to crowd out a sergeant only adds complication.

In any case, you have to play to perfection, and have an opponent who is willing to go along just to even have the opportunity to use the weapons here. I think, therefore, that it would be more useful to assume that if your opponent wants something dead, they'll have it dead, as was the assumption in the OP.

I think you're overstating the need for a compliant opponent. As long as they're not in the front rank, Precise Attacks are the only thing getting through. A Space Marine Sgt. with Power Weapon gets 4 attacks on the charge. 4*1/6*2/3*1/2 is about a 22% chance of dropping a Sgt.

Biophysical wrote: As long as they're not in the front rank, Precise Attacks are the only thing getting through.

And they can't shoot at you with barrage weapons. And they can't deepstrike things next to the sergeants. And they can't just move things over to one side and just eat through the squad the old fashioned way.

But the blatant non-viability of power blobs really isn't the point here.

Biophysical wrote:Unrelated, I think the mace is a lot cooler. Your sergeant hits like an Ogryn with one, and there's something really satisfying about wounding on 2's or 3's with a Guardsman.

And that's what I do like about them. It's like, none of these weapons are giving you all that good of odds against most things, but the mace does unlock a few options, and it is actually pretty decent against GEq,

MrMoustaffa wrote:I Say go for the maces! Now we can model our guardsmen with badass hammers! Its a win win!

Yes, it may well indeed be hammer time. That was my original idea for my ogryn before I settled on the swords that they have now.

I don't actually know if I'd use a hammer, though, as flanged maces just look so cool. I mean, imagine a model that looked like this:

I've got the old stormtrooper sgt with plasma pistol and a bolter slung across his chest. He's got an auspex in his right hand that has been begging me to be replaced with a mace pretty much as your picture shows. I've already modeled a big power hammer out of that sledge that comes on the superheavy sprue. That's for a vet squad, but I think the medieval mace fits the storms better.

That divegence aside, I think it comes down to the idea that power swords are better at killing things that you probably won't be winning combat against anyway. This is fine if you're a big, reliably stubborn blob. Power mauls are better at killing things that you've got a decent chance of actually winning combat against (non-MEQs).

To be on the safe side, I would suggest axes on everything. You may go last, but then again everything else already swings before guard for the most part. The +1 str from the axe helps wound, gives a bonus attack for having a pistol, and generally deters people from charging with small squads.

It's also cheaper than the fist, and since you can add melta bombs to guys, if you have the points your guard squads/blobs don't worry as much as they used to, and don't forget about overwatch!

juraigamer wrote:To be on the safe side, I would suggest axes on everything. You may go last, but then again everything else already swings before guard for the most part.

But that's not true. Guard, Sisters, Tau and Orks all categorically attack at the same time or slower than a guardsman with a non-axe power weapon. Furthermore, everything in the game that has a power fist or equivalent attacks more slowly than you do.

Really, the only things that both can attack you faster AND have a pretty solid chance of just nailing the power weapon guy are dedicated CC units, which a power weapon guardsman will probably not beat anyways, regardless of your power weapon choice. That a termie sergeant with a power sword will kill you before you get to swing either way doesn't seem to be much of a vote of confidence for the axe.

Don't forget Necrons. That's probably the most important of foes that swing after Guardsmen.

I say it is indeed hammertime. We need to look at the other parts of this. Only the mace can smack around monstrous creatures. Only the mace can force an enemy multiwound model to I 1 if a wound gets through (nobs, paladins, MC) Only the mace can smack around vehicles. Only the mace looks rediculously badass on anything you put it on. Only the mace gives us the ability to hide what are essentially Ogryn in our regular guardsmen squads. Only maces give us the excuse to shout "STOP! HAMMERTIME!" when we kill things with it.

To be perfectly honest, I don't why we would pick anything else. I know at this point everything in my army is getting a power fist or a power mace when it comes to close combat now. At least for my guardsmen.

I'll throw in my vote for the mace as the best idea of the bunch. Let's face it, IG in close combat against terminators are pretty much boned anyhow, and won't fare all that much better against power armor no matter what weapon Sarge is swinging.

On the other hand, if you're fighting things like Necron warriors and 'eavy armored PK Nobs, AP4 is good enough to bypass their saves, and in the latter case might be able to pick off the Nob in a challenge before he mangles your squad (any more than the rest of the Boyz already did).

Well, and a mace isn't all that much worse than a power sword against space marines. The increased chance to wound goes a long way to help fix the lack of Ap.

Interestingly enough, it just struck me that power maces are nearly the same as relic weapons. +2S power weapons that strike at initiative, right?

Ailaros wrote:Well, and a mace isn't all that much worse than a power sword against space marines. The increased chance to wound goes a long way to help fix the lack of Ap.

True but it's worse than a power axe. Against MEQ you will always be striking last anyway so the mace gives you +1 Strength, but the marine gets an armour save. There's no way it's more effective than the axe against MEQ.

The added bonus is that if the Nob has a klaw, you are swinging before everyone, even if they assault. The loss of +1 I for furious charge hurt pretty bad for orc boyz.

I still say axes, because most of your opponents in melee are going to be MEQ or TEQ, and if you're being assaulted by nercons, you're doing guard wrong! (aside from scarabs and wraiths of course)

Ailaros wrote:

Axe: The more I think about it, the less I like the axe. To start with, the axe has exactly every problem that the power sword has, except its problems are extended to I2. Most importantly, it doesn't have a chance to kill a power-fisted model BEFORE the power fist gets to swing. You're a bit more likely to have victory with the +S, but you're virtually guaranteeing that the victory will by Pyrrhic. Yes, it does have the tiny boost of being able to put down slightly more wounds, which will help you in future rounds of combat, but come on, how many rounds of combat are you really getting into nowadays? Yes, they retain the Ap2, but this doesn't address the fundamental problem of guard still being terrible against termies, especially of the assault variety, and don't help with the pyrrhic problem either. Perhaps I could see them in a giant power blob, but for the life of me I can't figure out what the point is.

I think you need to rethink this one slightly mate. How pyrrhic is the victory? Your cheap as chips guardsman sarge with an axe costs little compared to my sarge/aspiring champion/wolfguard with a fist. I think the axe gives an advantage by issuing the challenge. The fist will have 2 choices- not swing at all, or get into a challenge in which the fist will squish the challenger at the same time he buries his axe in the fist. Sure its pyhrric victory for you, but its a pyhrric victory for me to. My total loss is greater than yours- My guy cost more points than yours. I have less models on the table than you already, so losing 1 for 1 is not the path to victory. So for me, the fist, I see it as an absolute nuisance of a situation- I issue a challenge and get an unfair trade, or i get challenged and have the choice of not swinging, or and unfair trade. I think axe's are quite good vs the old fist in situations like this.

I'm going to echo the axe. Cheaper than a fist, and you are going to go last alot of the time anyway. I've found from the other side of the board that the attrition of speedbumps or sarge's in blobs can whittle a squad down once i get stuck into an IG line, often enough to lose it in the next shooting phase. When the squads are 10-5 man strong, losing 1-2 dudes hurts. At 10, its sort of "mmm yeah they can take it", but once they drop below 7 you start to get a little nervous for them.

I play guardsmen like a dictator, sending my men out only to absorb the bullets of the enemy til their guns start clicking, so keeping my guardsmen in combat, and giving them 10 point wastes of points like a power sword seems like a wasted effort to me personally.

If something touches a guardsman squad in combat, chances are they will NOT walk out of it alive, and one sarge at the back with 2 measly attacks hitting on 4's and wounding on 5's against the basic marine doesn't seem like a cost effective use of points to be honest.

TL;DR Do you guys find that giving guardsmen special weapons ever pays off at all?

EDIT: I meant taking close combat weapons, I should have cleared that up before posting. Special weapons are great.

Yes. Always take weapon upgrades. Weapon upgrades are, by far, the most efficient way of increasing your army's killing power. They're also more efficient on the other side, which becomes obvious when you consider a 10-point meltagun upgrading wiping out a 250 point land raider.

Moreover, there's the tactical flexibility. Guardsmen with 10 lasguns are going to hurt infantry. 9 guardsmen with lasguns and a dude with a meltagun can threaten anything in the game.

You choices are
 Power Axe: S4 AP2 Unwieldy, Good for 2+ Save Models and gives you the extra attack for a second Power Weapon, Close Combat Weapon or Pistol. If you are Expecting Terminators take one of these with a Plasma Pistol and you could kill 1-4 of them with some great rolling.
 Power Fist: S6 AP2, Specialist Weapon, Unwieldy, I would take these were you can, Good for mixing with a second Power Fist, Bolt Gun or Shotgun.
 Power Lance: S4/3 AP3/4, I am still not sure, but fluffy for your Rough Riders and will still give them an AP Weapon on Assaults. Though it would look cool to take one of your extra Grey Knight Halberds and give it to your Sergeant.
 Power Maul: S5 AP4 Concussive, I think this is a good go to weapon, it will wound Orks and Marines on a 3+ and mixes well with a Bolt Pistol. You might want to conceder taking both a Power Maul and a Power Axe.
 Power Sword: Same Old-Same Old S3 AP3, this is the standard boring, but old and reliable Power Sword. So it wont punch Terminators, if you need an AP2 Weapon for Terminators or a MC, you have bigger problems than needing to Punch 2+ Armor

As someone who hasn't delved too far into 6th edition yet, can any unit that can take a power weapon decide (by modeling) which power weapon they're taking? I was under the impression that you could only play a maul/axe/lance if your codex specifically stated it.

Thinking on this now, i guess most codices don't actually specify do they.

Interesting...If this is the case i may consider keeping my 30 man power blob together instead of converting them to vets...

Pretty much every codex has been FAQed to say "power weapon" unless it's a specific character wargear.

Anpu42 wrote:You choices are
 Power Axe: S4 AP2 Unwieldy, Good for 2+ Save Models and gives you the extra attack for a second Power Weapon, Close Combat Weapon or Pistol. If you are Expecting Terminators take one of these with a Plasma Pistol and you could kill 1-4 of them with some great rolling.
 Power Fist: S6 AP2, Specialist Weapon, Unwieldy, I would take these were you can, Good for mixing with a second Power Fist, Bolt Gun or Shotgun.
 Power Lance: S4/3 AP3/4, I am still not sure, but fluffy for your Rough Riders and will still give them an AP Weapon on Assaults. Though it would look cool to take one of your extra Grey Knight Halberds and give it to your Sergeant.
 Power Maul: S5 AP4 Concussive, I think this is a good go to weapon, it will wound Orks and Marines on a 3+ and mixes well with a Bolt Pistol. You might want to conceder taking both a Power Maul and a Power Axe.
 Power Sword: Same Old-Same Old S3 AP3, this is the standard boring, but old and reliable Power Sword. So it wont punch Terminators, if you need an AP2 Weapon for Terminators or a MC, you have bigger problems than needing to Punch 2+ Armor

None of these sound appealing to me, that's my point. Yeah its nice to say "oh you could kill a terminator with this" but thats a slim chance if anything to happen, and I'd rather invest my points in 2 more flamers or a meltagun elsewhere that I can rely on.

Ailaros wrote:Yes. Always take weapon upgrades. Weapon upgrades are, by far, the most efficient way of increasing your army's killing power. They're also more efficient on the other side, which becomes obvious when you consider a 10-point meltagun upgrading wiping out a 250 point land raider.

Moreover, there's the tactical flexibility. Guardsmen with 10 lasguns are going to hurt infantry. 9 guardsmen with lasguns and a dude with a meltagun can threaten anything in the game.

Sorry, I should have realised my mistake with the wording. Special weapons in my squads are a must, I meant more of the close combat type of weapons. Sorry.

Oh, yeah, they're less necessary. Mostly because, though still a cheap way to add killing power, they're not going to be used quite as often as other options. If the 10 points spent on a power weapon is a 10 points not spent on an autocannon, I think I'd much rather have the autocannon in this edition.

But if you've got points lying around, I think I'd still take a power weapon over a plasma pistol most of the time.

skarousis wrote:As someone who hasn't delved too far into 6th edition yet, can any unit that can take a power weapon decide (by modeling) which power weapon they're taking? I was under the impression that you could only play a maul/axe/lance if your codex specifically stated it.

Thinking on this now, i guess most codices don't actually specify do they.

Interesting...If this is the case i may consider keeping my 30 man power blob together instead of converting them to vets...

The rules are that if a model has a power weapon to look at the model to determine what kind of power weapon.

And unless your codex specifies a specific type, then the weapon can be whatever you bloody well want it to be.

I believe all codices have been FAQ'd to read "power weapon" in all instances.

Ailaros wrote:Oh, yeah, they're less necessary. Mostly because, though still a cheap way to add killing power, they're not going to be used quite as often as other options. If the 10 points spent on a power weapon is a 10 points not spent on an autocannon, I think I'd much rather have the autocannon in this edition.

But if you've got points lying around, I think I'd still take a power weapon over a plasma pistol most of the time.

I wouldn't mix plasma pistols with power weapons. I'd be too worried about the over-heat offing the sarg before he gets to use the power weapon.
I'd consider mace and axe on one guy if it didn't look so stupid.

I'm thinking I'll run a 42 man blob with 1 axe, 2 maces, lord commissar with fist, priest with chainsaw and a poor naked sarg to suck up my opponents challenge.
So I can challenge with the expendible axe, suck up a challenge with naked bob, and smack my opponent around with a healthy amount of S6 and S5 attacks.
Commissar lord is a bit more expensive, but I think worth it for the 2+ look out and the extra wounds.

-Matt

What I think is really interesting is that they also added the catch-all of unusual power weapon. You can have whatever you want as a power weapon - a cattle prod, a laser wristwatch, or a power-reproduction-of-17th-century-dutch-master, and it will all be legal (just counting as a sword).

Yes, this was technically true before, but I'm glad they didn't get rid of it.

I can't say i'm sold on the Power Maul. A lot of people seem to be focussed on the +2S but without AP3 or better it is pointless, imo. I've charged my Ogyns into Spess Mahreens before with a lot more attacks than one Sergeant and at S6 (more hits, more wounds) only to see most of the Mahreens pass their 3+Sv. Against vehicles your ST Sergeant will be galncing on a 5 and penetrating on a 6 against most rear armour but that still isn't great odds.

For a single Sergeant i'm in favour of the Power Sword with a Meltabomb.

On the point of modeling if i want to give a model a spear or lance like weapon it would have to use the stupid Power Lance profile according to the Power Weapon rules *sulks*

Peace Out!
Jonny!