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Alright, here's something to chew on.

Pedro Kantor's Chapter tactics read, "If you include Pedro Kantor then all units in your army exchange the Combat tactics special rule for the Stubborn USR and your sternguard Veteran squads gain the Hold the Line! special rule detailed below."

Reading it, Pedro's Hold the Line! rule is not an exchange for combat tactics, merely that Sternguard units gain the rule. My question, if allied BA are brought, with sternguard, would they gain HtL?

Unfortunantly, this isn't the case.

Sternguard only gain Hold the Line if his Chapter Tactics are used.

Grey Templar wrote:Unfortunantly, this isn't the case.

Sternguard only gain Hold the Line if his Chapter Tactics are used.

His chapter tactics are being used. In the quote here, "and your sternguard veteran squads gain the HtL! special rule.." there is nothing that states they must give up their combat tactics for the second part to take effect. I agree I couldn't have Pedro and Vulkan, then use Vulkan's ability and benefit from hold the line since it's not a separate rule. However, I am using his Chapter tactics which I exchange combat tactics for stubborn, but what I'm wondering is if the second part is only if the exchange for stubborn is made, or if I get stubborn, and the SG vets get hold the line since they make no reference to that being part of the exchange.

For example, Vulkan twin-links specific weapons, and Pedro's Tactics don't work. Now Pedro's tactics are in place, I get Stubborn as the exchange. Is HtL a bonus ability that applies when Pedro's tactics are in effect? There are no rules that say that the unit must have Chapter tactics to gain HtL, just that it must be a "Sternguard Veteran Squad" which the BA have.

What part of the "all units in the army" do you think let's sternguard not swap CC for stubborn, everything the second part of the rule does is give them HtL for free.
So all units in a Pedro tactics army swap CC for stubborn, sternguard also get HtL.

HoverBoy wrote:What part of the "all units in the army" do you think let's sternguard not swap CC for stubborn, everything the second part of the rule does is give them HtL for free.
So all units in a Pedro tactics army swap CC for stubborn, sternguard also get HtL.

The question is, does the sternguard getting HtL carry over to a BA sternguard unit? The FAQ says nothing about it only being Sternguard from C:SM.

It depends on how you define army, there's precedence for the idea that a whole army of allies consists of 2 individual armies of different codices, which really muddies the water for army wide special rules, basically which type of army is it actually referring to?

Assuming the reference to army in Pedro's Chapter Tactics means the entire force including allies, yes, Blood Angels Sternguard would stand to benefit from it, despite not having combat tactics.

It's a matter of how the environment you are playing in chooses to define army for these such special rules.

The special rules for armies are supposed to apply only to the armies from the respective codex. I know that there are poorly worded updates, but this seems to be the general rule for all of the different codex special powers. Such as Pedro's inspiring presence only has effect on models from codex Space Marines.

GW really dropped the ball on this one. They didn't address that issue on all of the characters, just select ones. That doesn't make any sense to me at all. If they were going to change some they should have made it clear that others worked for allies as well. There is room for debate on this point, I will concede. Heck, I could be completely wrong.

The other issue is that you do indeed have to give up the basic chapter tactics in order for your sternguard to be considered scorring.

The rule states that if you give up "A" you get "B and C".

It doesn't say if you give up "A" you get "B" and then you get "C" no matter which you choose.

"If you include Pedro Kantor then all units in your army exchange the Combat tactics special rule for the Stubborn USR and your sternguard Veteran squads gain the Hold the Line! special rule detailed below."

It's right there. It's a set. Like "Buy one and get one free" You don't get the free one if you didn't buy one first.

Idolator wrote:The rule states that if you give up "A" you get "B and C".

It doesn't say if you give up "A" you get "B" and then you get "C" no matter which you choose.

"If you include Pedro Kantor then all units in your army exchange the Combat tactics special rule for the Stubborn USR and your sternguard Veteran squads gain the Hold the Line! special rule detailed below."

It's right there. It's a set. Like "Buy one and get one free" You don't get the free one if you didn't buy one first.

Right - exchange CT for Stubborn and all Strenguard Veteran squads gain HtL.
Where does it say that you must have CT (so you can lose it) to gain HtL?
If you have CT you absolutely exchange it for Stubborn - you have no choice. But every unit of SV gains HtL - again, no choice.

It's just like Vulkans rule. You don't have to have CT to benefit so vehicles benefit.

Your army must exchange CT in order to get the "Hold the Line" rule. Just having Pedro in the army will not confer the ability.

If you choose not to use Pedro's rules (by having another special character) your Stern Guard would not be counted as scorring.

There is at least one instance where the word "and" is used in the same fashion. It denotes that two benefits are given in exchange for losing the Chapter tactics rule.

Idolator wrote:Your army must exchange CT in order to get the "Hold the Line" rule. Just having Pedro in the army will not confer the ability.

If you choose not to use Pedro's rules (by having another special character) your Stern Guard would not be counted as scorring.

There is at least one instance where the word "and" is used in the same fashion. It denotes that two benefits are given in exchange for losing the Chapter tactics rule.

Correct. SM army with Pedro. BA ally army with SV.

Since all SV units gain HtL, the BA allies score as well.

That's what the OP was saying.

I conceded that my opinion on that may be wrong.

It was that other nonsense on which I was sure.

Looks like a loophole since the FAQ doesn't change it to "Codex: Space Marine units only" like with other special character special rules. Expect arguments about it however.

It doesn't help that there are two definitions of the word "army" in this game. But RAW I'd say its a loophole and would allow it. Tis only one unit and if that's how you want to spend your points on your Ally, more power to you.

Lone Dragoon wrote:

HoverBoy wrote:What part of the "all units in the army" do you think let's sternguard not swap CC for stubborn, everything the second part of the rule does is give them HtL for free.
So all units in a Pedro tactics army swap CC for stubborn, sternguard also get HtL.

The question is, does the sternguard getting HtL carry over to a BA sternguard unit? The FAQ says nothing about it only being Sternguard from C:SM.

No, because "the army" is in reference to the army list you make from C:SM (The Context Tells us this), it does not confer to allied units, as they are not from the same army as the C:Sm unit that confers the ability.

The army is the entire set of models you are fielding, including allies. The models and units coming out of your main codex are your 'primary detachment'. As battle brothers, BA and SM can be affected by special rules from each other's characters.

-cgmckenzie

Nowhere in the Codex or FAQs does it say Pedro's CT applies only to units chosen from C:SM. Only units chosen from C:SM get +1 attack, but since it says nothing about CT it is not faq'd so it still applies to every Sternguard unit regardless of Codex.
Now, because BA don't have Combat Tactics they are not stubborn, but the rule is a 2-parter: swap combat tactics with stubborn, and allow Sternguards to claim objectives. The fact that it is contained in the same rule simply means that if an army contains Pedro and Shrike you would either let your army be fleet, or Sternguards are scoring. It is part of the CT rule, but a Sternguard unit does jot have to have combat tactics to become scoring.

Captain Antivas wrote:... but since it says nothing about CT it is not faq'd so it still applies to every Sternguard unit regardless of Codex..

Only if you ignore the context of what the SM codex calls an Army.

DeathReaper wrote:

Captain Antivas wrote:... but since it says nothing about CT it is not faq'd so it still applies to every Sternguard unit regardless of Codex..

Only if you ignore the context of what the SM codex calls an Army.

The rules that apply to only units chosen by C:SM are clearly noted in the FAQ. The rest follow the normal rules that apply to all codices. The "context" you refer to is non-existent as far as the context of the rules are concerned.

Look through the Space Marine Codex.

It clearly calls a Space marine list "An Army"

Clearly this refers to units from the Space Marine Codex.

The only way for Pedro to effect things outside of his "Army" is to ignore the context of what the the Space Marine Codex calls "Army"

the 5th ed codexes equate Army to be synonymous with primary (Or Secondary) Detachment.

DeathReaper wrote:Look through the Space Marine Codex.

It clearly calls a Space marine list "An Army"

Clearly this refers to units from the Space Marine Codex.

The only way for Pedro to effect things outside of his "Army" is to ignore the context of what the the Space Marine Codex calls "Army"

the 5th ed codexes equate Army to be synonymous with primary (Or Secondary) Detachment.

They specifically limited other SM heros to the SM codex.
Pedro was not limited in this way.

That (more relevant) context says its allowed.
If the rules limit one thing but not another you should not assume the other is limited as well.

DeathReaper wrote:Look through the Space Marine Codex.

It clearly calls a Space marine list "An Army"

Clearly this refers to units from the Space Marine Codex.

The only way for Pedro to effect things outside of his "Army" is to ignore the context of what the the Space Marine Codex calls "Army"

the 5th ed codexes equate Army to be synonymous with primary (Or Secondary) Detachment.

This isn't 5th ed anymore. The FAQ updated the codex to the 6th ed understanding of an Army consisting of a primary detachment and any allied detachments. The context of the codex changed with the new edition when it was updated to 6th ed in the FAQ.

Captain Antivas wrote:This isn't 5th ed anymore. The FAQ updated the codex to the 6th ed understanding of an Army consisting of a primary detachment and any allied detachments. The context of the codex changed with the new edition when it was updated to 6th ed in the FAQ.

The Codexes were still written for the 5th ed rules, even though it is not 5th ed anymore.

6th ed gave a new definition for army, which means you primary and secondary detachments.

The Primary detachment is still its own "Army" as is your secondary detachment, the context of each codex tells us this.

DeathReaper wrote:the 5th ed codexes equate Army to be synonymous with primary (Or Secondary) Detachment.

While this is certainly true of 5th ed, it's written in a context where allies don't exist, and the term "army" isn't properly defined in the BRB. Personally, I play it that "army" refers to your entire force and that anything affecting a "detachment" states as much, but I realise that's an interpretation and not strict RAW.

However, I don't believe allied Sternguard get the benefit of Kantor's rule. My reasoning for this is that the sentence is all in one, suggesting it's "A=B+C", not "A=B and then C". Where we've seen additional effects from the same rule before, it's usually separated by a full stop and the use of wording such as "In addition...".

DeathReaper wrote:

Captain Antivas wrote:This isn't 5th ed anymore. The FAQ updated the codex to the 6th ed understanding of an Army consisting of a primary detachment and any allied detachments. The context of the codex changed with the new edition when it was updated to 6th ed in the FAQ.

The Codexes were still written for the 5th ed rules, even though it is not 5th ed anymore.

6th ed gave a new definition for army, which means you primary and secondary detachments.

The Primary detachment is still its own "Army" as is your secondary detachment, the context of each codex tells us this.

Show me. What sentence says this? What page defines army?


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Super Ready wrote:
However, I don't believe allied Sternguard get the benefit of Kantor's rule. My reasoning for this is that the sentence is all in one, suggesting it's "A=B+C", not "A=B and then C". Where we've seen additional effects from the same rule before, it's usually separated by a full stop and the use of wording such as "In addition...".

The rule says you exchange Combat Tactics with Stubborn and Sternguards gain a special rule. This applies to the army as a whole, but since BA don't have Combat Tactics they don't get stubborn, but following your own definition of army why wouldn't allied sternguards get the benefit of the rule? The FAQ specifically says that allied detachments don't get the +1 attack so in the context of the codex the previous rule applies to your army as a whole, including allies. It doesn't say Sternguards become scoring units, it says they gain a special rule, which applies to the army as a whole.

Page 51 Left Column, 1st graph 2nd and 3rd sentences

"Each entry describes the unit and gives the specific rules you will need to use them in your games. As such, the army list given later refers to the page numbers on these entries..."

"the army list given later" is Space Marines, this shows that army is nothing but the units that come from the Space Marine codex.

rigeld2 wrote:
They specifically limited other SM heros to the SM codex.
Pedro was not limited in this way.

Seems pretty open and shut.

DeathReaper wrote:Page 51 Left Column, 1st graph 2nd and 3rd sentences

"Each entry describes the unit and gives the specific rules you will need to use them in your games. As such, the army list given later refers to the page numbers on these entries..."

"the army list given later" is Space Marines, this shows that army is nothing but the units that come from the Space Marine codex.

Clever interpretation, but not what that means. Try again.

Even if that were true the FAQ limits some entries and some rules to only units chosen from C:SM and some do not. Either you are claiming these additions are useless and your interpretation trumps the FAQ, or we follow RAW and only the rules and entries limited have limitations placed on them. Sorry, I'm going with RAW.

Captain Antivas wrote:

DeathReaper wrote:Page 51 Left Column, 1st graph 2nd and 3rd sentences

"Each entry describes the unit and gives the specific rules you will need to use them in your games. As such, the army list given later refers to the page numbers on these entries..."

"the army list given later" is Space Marines, this shows that army is nothing but the units that come from the Space Marine codex.

Clever interpretation, but not what that means. Try again.

Even if that were true the FAQ limits some entries and some rules to only units chosen from C:SM and some do not. Either you are claiming these additions are useless and your interpretation trumps the FAQ, or we follow RAW and only the rules and entries limited have limitations placed on them. Sorry, I'm going with RAW.

It actually is what that means, read the SM Codex and see for yourself...

If you are going with the RAW, then you will see that pedro only affects units in the Space Marine Codex.

Unless you are saying that you can put Cybork upgrade on units from codexes other than orks...

Only if they are suitably cyb-orky enough.
Otherwise, I won't allow it.

Apples an oranges. An effect of a special rule is not the same as an upgrade. Army list is not the same as Army. An army list is a collection of options for fielding a particular detachment from a codex. Army is the collection of units chosen to represent you in battle. One is limited to the codex, the other is not.

RAW is what is written in the codex plus amendments from the FAQ. Keep ignoring the FAQ all you like but the bottom line is that the context of the codex as amended to represent an update to 6th ed proves you wrong.

i am not sure whats being debated anymore.
Is it the debate about:
A. What constitutes an Army?
or
B. Wether Pedro's HTL rule applies to allies?