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When my gaming group gets some new thing in the mail (computer, tv, roomba cleaning robot, etc.) we look at the styrofoam packaging material and decide if it can be used as a building for our gaming table. Often times the answer is yes, once we cock our heads to the side and let our imagination run a little wild.

This got me thinking. This same sort of pre-molded styrofoam could be used to create floorplans from the get-go. So, you could get a piece of styrofoam that is a large mansion/dungeon piece, stackable for multiple layers, and modifiable with a hot wire cutting tool (Say for external dungeon connections. )

The idea is based off of custom molded EPS like you find in shipped items, similar to this one:


Only, my own idea would look more like this rough sketch up that I have here:


My question is this, what sort of price point would you be willing to buy an unpainted styrofoam structure that covers roughly 2ft x 2ft for?

So my questions on such a product is this:

The product would be supplied unpainted, pretty much as shown here. What price point would you consider buying this product at?

Next, as you can see there are not external entrances or even windows at this point. This is, at the moment a design decision, as it allows a purchased floorplan to work on multiple levels. However, would you prefer NOT to have to cut external entrances in yourself, limiting the variability of the design?

well, since I'm in the EU shipping would kill it for me :( it looks good though. It's a bit 'static', that's to say it will feel rather familiar, fast, so it's something to pull out every once in a while. still, at ~$25 or so it's interesting.

a suggestion though: the way those stairs are modeled it's nonsensical to stack them (you'd end up trapped under the next pair of stairs)
if you move them more towards the center along the wall they're up against now it'd be easy to just cut out a bit of foam under it and make it look good across multiple floors.
not sure I'd *want* multiple floors with that exact floorplan but if you'd make some more varied 'floors' with for example just those stairs in place it'd make more sense.
...and judging by the way you designed this it's meant to stack with other copies of itself, right?

Bolognesus wrote:
well, since I'm in the EU shipping would kill it for me :( it looks good though. It's a bit 'static', that's to say it will feel rather familiar, fast, so it's something to pull out every once in a while. still, at ~$25 or so it's interesting.

a suggestion though: the way those stairs are modeled it's nonsensical to stack them (you'd end up trapped under the next pair of stairs)
if you move them more towards the center along the wall they're up against now it'd be easy to just cut out a bit of foam under it and make it look good across multiple floors.
not sure I'd *want* multiple floors with that exact floorplan but if you'd make some more varied 'floors' with for example just those stairs in place it'd make more sense.
...and judging by the way you designed this it's meant to stack with other copies of itself, right?

Ideally, I'm able to get more than one floorplan. So, staleness will be lightened a bit.

Yes, they are designed to stack. But the design is a square, so you can always rotate the design to avoid trapping people under stairs.

Keep in mind though, that rough sketch up was a quick design to complement the picture of the packing material to get across the idea of the product.

I really enjoy the idea, as I do the exact same thing with packing materials. I only wish Styrofoam didn't melt under spray paint, as I am a lazy bastard.

The expansion possibilities for this are very large. You can go from office buildings, to dungeons, to ruins, to even hills and rivers. Sounds like a great idea as long as start up isn't too bad and price is fair.

For me, $25 bucks for unpainted foam is a bit much. Since styrofoam is free from packaging, your price point has to make it convenient if you want to really sell it. What that price is however, I'm really not sure.

 Omega_Warlord wrote:
I really enjoy the idea, as I do the exact same thing with packing materials. I only wish Styrofoam didn't melt under spray paint, as I am a lazy bastard.

The expansion possibilities for this are very large. You can go from office buildings, to dungeons, to ruins, to even hills and rivers. Sounds like a great idea as long as start up isn't too bad and price is fair.

For me, $25 bucks for unpainted foam is a bit much. Since styrofoam is free from packaging, your price point has to make it convenient if you want to really sell it. What that price is however, I'm really not sure.

$25 was suggested by another poster. What price point would you be looking at as a "I would buy this"?

I'm looking at start up price, and if things fall into place, probably looking at Kickstarter as a means of getting started.

For me, and I certainly do not speak for the masses (my hobby budget is next to nil) I would definitely be a purchase for $10-$15, but I understand that you have to take into account the cost of operations. So as I said, I'm not sure where it would fall on the supply/demand curve, but I will be watching this thread and idea intently.

If you produce it in the same stuff as the styrofoam insert my guess is that this would end up failing. Not too many people want to pay money for that kind of poor quality product. I think you have a good idea but should look to realize it in a different medium. Styrofoam is so low grade that it would break all the time and you would end up with a worthless product after a short period of gaming. That alone would cause issues if anyone actually was willing to pay for it.

I think you are onto something with modular stackable terrain but you should look into higher quality material and see what price you can really bring this to market at. Once you have all that lined up plus some more 3D sketches you could even run a kickstarter campaign.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Omega_Warlord wrote:
For me, and I certainly do not speak for the masses (my hobby budget is next to nil) I would definitely be a purchase for $10-$15, but I understand that you have to take into account the cost of operations. So as I said, I'm not sure where it would fall on the supply/demand curve, but I will be watching this thread and idea intently.

You would really pay that for cheap styrofoam?

 Omega_Warlord wrote:
For me, and I certainly do not speak for the masses (my hobby budget is next to nil) I would definitely be a purchase for $10-$15, but I understand that you have to take into account the cost of operations. So as I said, I'm not sure where it would fall on the supply/demand curve, but I will be watching this thread and idea intently.

Think its going to get down to cost per unit.

I really have no idea how much it'll cost per unit to make, how much the initial set up cost (through the manufacturer) will be, or the shipping cost will be (though, ideally that should be relatively low, as it is styrofoam).


Automatically Appended Next Post:

brettz123 wrote:
If you produce it in the same stuff as the styrofoam insert my guess is that this would end up failing. Not too many people want to pay money for that kind of poor quality product. I think you have a good idea but should look to realize it in a different medium. Styrofoam is so low grade that it would break all the time and you would end up with a worthless product after a short period of gaming. That alone would cause issues if anyone actually was willing to pay for it.

I think you are onto something with modular stackable terrain but you should look into higher quality material and see what price you can really bring this to market at. Once you have all that lined up plus some more 3D sketches you could even run a kickstarter campaign.

There are different grades of EPS. From the super weak that breaks when breathed on, to some stuff that can take a decent amount of wear and tear provided its not kicked or stepped on.
I'm probably looking at a density of 1.5 or 2, which should give decent survivability for most situations.

Like anything, it needs to be taken care of. I don't expect it to be much more fragile than the miniatures that you've paid 50 dollars + for.

As for cost. As I said earlier, the idea is to have terrain pieces that are sturdy enough to use for a long time, but cheap enough to replace easily should it get broken.

In plain white foam they would need to be dirt cheap to sell.

I would be looking into a grey-tinted foam, like GW (and I think TSR) used back in the late 80's/early '90s for castle kits.

And obviously the more detailed you can make them, the more likely people will be to buy them. They need to look like purpose-made dungeons, rather than repurposed packing foam.

I like the idea, but something more durable would be good.

pitboy2710 wrote:
I like the idea, but something more durable would be good.

More durable would be more expensive. I'm aiming to cover 4 sq ft of table in an affordable manner that will help the budget gamer.

While primarily aimed at RPG groups, these pieces are also modifiable by the wargaming crowd just as packing material is. Ideally with features designed around the same scale

At a price point of 10-15 dollars I would buy it if you were able to get some decent texture or detail. Obviously the medium would limit the reasonable "resolution" of detail, but something like a grid or tile pattern on the floor would go a long way.

Additionally, this type of foam picks up a decent amount of strength if you glue a layer of fine sand on the surface, which is absolutely what I would do with a product like this.

I think the value in such a product would be volume. At 2x2 and 10 per tile you could surface a whole 6x4 for 60 dollars.

That's a pretty good deal if you are trying to build up a stock of terrain quickly, such as a new gaming club or starting a new game or system. For example, if you wanted to start a Mordheim campaign, but did not have much ini the way of good terrain, this could be a very attractive product.

Depending on the texture of the foam, I think this would work best for dungeons, ruins, or anything that could be a little gritty or sloppy, such that you could easily resurface the foam, suh as with spackle, sand, etc.

The product pitched is going to have a limted audience, and limited use.

How many times are you going to want to battle inside the same buidling/courtyard/sewers ?
How many people are going to overcome the stigma of cheapenss of the building material be willing to buy styromfoam ?

I would pay $10 -$15 if it looked good and I had a use for the building.

Google Sketchup allows me to mock up ideas fairly quickly.

I knocked out two of them today playing around.

The first is a Parking garage, which shows off the Stacking concept fairly well.



The other is an Arena. Its not as versatile as other ideas, but you can imagine it being placed in the middle of other tiles to be part of a bigger complex, or on its own as a part of rpg adventure.

I like the parking garage and arena.

Have you found a company that can actually produce these for you ?

The last two mock ups look good, i especially like the area/forum. The car park columns
Look like the would easily break off if knocked or not store properly.

There is a company here in the UK that produces terrain and scenery items in compacted polystyrene (has an almost hard plastic surface with foam. It's light but tough and comes painted.

Tablescapes is their name and offer great vfm. You might want to drop them a line about products, prices and materials.

I also note that there is a company called Terranscapes in the US, the also apper to do terrain with polystyrene elements (looks like filler blocks) but is very expensive.

 notprop wrote:
The last two mock ups look good, i especially like the area/forum. The car park columns
Look like the would easily break off if knocked or not store properly.

There is a company here in the UK that produces terrain and scenery items in compacted polystyrene (has an almost hard plastic surface with foam. It's light but tough and comes painted.

Tablescapes is their name and offer great vfm. You might want to drop them a line about products, prices and materials.

I also note that there is a company called Terranscapes in the US, the also apper to do terrain with polystyrene elements (looks like filler blocks) but is very expensive.

Terranscapes uses foam, but it is all hand cut. His other stuff he molds at home. He does great work, but I'm wanting to the opposite direction in price. I'll see about Tablescapes. I've got various emails out to people about pricing, but not having alot of bites back on information.

I've been working on the storage/fragilitiy concept of inside items. I think I have a decent solution for the most part. Every inside item stops, at the highest, at the inside lip. Meaning there is a 1/2" gap between the top of the piece, and anything like the columns. Storage wise, the pieces are designed to stack, making storage fairly easy. On the other hand I'm thinking o including a lid either separately or with each piece that can be placed on the top of the a piece in order to protect the inside and be used as a sort of fog of war for RPGs.

I think this idea is weakened by the fact you can get these kind of materials quite easily by just asking businesses. When I move out of uni and need boxes, bubble wrap and that kinda jazz I just go into town and ask. And receive. For free.

Or you can just ask people you know who have bought something like a TV recently. When I bought mine I had a ton of styrofoam. It's pretty easy to just ask around.

Depending on the detail and quality, I would pay ten to twenty dollars for a piece of styrofoam terrain. Higher durability and attractiveness would fetch a price on the higher end of that scale, while an unfinished product would be worth a smaller amount to me. Also, many electronics I get now come not with a custom-cut foam tray, but a carton one. (Some kind of paper pulp, if I had to guess.) It seems more durable and lighter than foam. It might even be easier to make.

I have ZERO need for these.
There was a time I did, though. Where were you THEN? LOL

Suggestions:
1) Don't use sharp details, like steps. They won't come across properly. Make steps out of plastic & have them as separate inserts. It'll increase the usability of the board.

2) Don't JUST do 2x2 sections. Sometimes, you just need a long hallway or 2. Vary your approach.

3) Don't use styrofoam. Use expanding foam (like you can buy in a can). GW's put out a few terrain pieces made of this stuff over the years, and it holds up well.

4) Lids. I like the idea of including lids with each piece. It will allow the user to set up his terrain in advance, but only expose it in sections.

Do you have a manufacturer lined up? How far have you gotten with this idea?

Considering the expense of Dwarven Forge and the time consuming nature of making it yourself from Castlemolds or the like, I can definitely see how people would like this. Maybe you should consider doing a 1" grid pattern on the floor. D&D gamers will need that and, let's face it, they'll be your core audience.

Eric

What I would like to see are some "city block/curb" pieces: rectangular/square pieces of various sizes and shapes that look like the raised sections that buildings sit on.

They shouldhave cool moulded sidewalk detailing and sewer grates, etc. around the edges but blank in the middle so people can add ruins (homemade or GW kits, etc.).

Sort of like pre-fab sidewalk basing for buildings/ruins that would allow you to give the impression of roadways, etc. by raising up all the buildings.

With buildings/ruins terrain being so sommon in many games and with so many buildig kits out there I am amazed noone has cornored the untapped market for quality detailed pre-fab basing for them.

Itybih2ku wrote:


As for cost. As I said earlier, the idea is to have terrain pieces that are sturdy enough to use for a long time, but cheap enough to replace easily should it get broken.

Ok that sounds good but what is your target price? Right now all I hear is I want cheap. We all want cheap but what do you mean when say cheap and maybe more importantly is that a price you can actually provide and stay in business with?

brettz123 wrote:

Itybih2ku wrote:


As for cost. As I said earlier, the idea is to have terrain pieces that are sturdy enough to use for a long time, but cheap enough to replace easily should it get broken.

Ok that sounds good but what is your target price? Right now all I hear is I want cheap. We all want cheap but what do you mean when say cheap and maybe more importantly is that a price you can actually provide and stay in business with?

Looking at a sell price of $10-15 (up to maybe 20) per unit.

At that price if you did something akin to the Forgeworld Zone Mortalis boards you would clean up.

 adamsouza wrote:
I like the parking garage and arena.

Have you found a company that can actually produce these for you ?

Yes! I do have a company that can. And the plus side, the color isn't going to be white.


Notice the grey foam in the background? I'm going to be using that color for the production! It adds about $1 to the production price, but I think the upgrade is well worth it, as even a color change helps change people's perception of the product.

However, before the excitement level crops up, there are other area's I need to research.

I'm now looking at packaging options (carton, bag with cardboard tag, etc.) There's also the question of getting graphic artistry done in order to cover packaging. Then I need to look at Shipping costs.

All in all, I'm thinking that at $15/unit I need to sell between 2-3000 units to cover initial start up costs. However, that initial units will contain a full 3 different Tiles. I can't promise that the garage or the Arena will be in that set, as Ideally I want all 3 of the initial launch products to work well together as a set. If the start up prices from other areas go too high, I may be forced to raise it closer to 20. Beyond that and I believe the product will be a wash.

The good news is once the initial startup costs are out of the way, new tiles can be introduced with a much lower overhead. In that case, only around 5-800 or so need to be sold to break even.

However, even if I keep the prices where I want them, the launch of the product will weigh entirely on the success of the Kickstarter project.

Hope that update helps.

I think that would work well as a Kickstarter project. You can start at the bare minimum to make a small profit, but if you go over you can have stretch goals that add in more tiles.

Do something similar to Reaper and have a higher pledge level that initially is only just acceptable, but if stretch goals are made it automatically gets each new tile released.

Could work, if the market is there. If you are going to run this, I would suggest soon to take advantage of all the Reaper people hanging around Kickstarter, they have heaps of mini's and now need somewhere to put them

First, congratulations on actually finding a company who will produce these. A friend of mine looked into this several years ago and got zero response from any of the packaging manufacturers he talked to.
Next, here's an idea you may find interesting. His plan was to do the same thing you are but vertically stacking the shapes, with one side left open to create a multi leveled dungeon and cavern. These were to be sized to fit a glass doored display cabinet, creating an ant farm styled display backdrop for painted figures.
Also: Hotwirefoamfactory sells a product called foam coat which is perfect for finishing these terain sections. When mixed with their hardener called Boost, it is nearly indestructable. I have built life sized foam monsters for a halloween attraction, finished with foam coat, which actually survived being left outside for over a year.

 snurl wrote:
First, congratulations on actually finding a company who will produce these. A friend of mine looked into this several years ago and got zero response from any of the packaging manufacturers he talked to.
Next, here's an idea you may find interesting. His plan was to do the same thing you are but vertically stacking the shapes, with one side left open to create a multi leveled dungeon and cavern. These were to be sized to fit a glass doored display cabinet, creating an ant farm styled display backdrop for painted figures.
Also: Hotwirefoamfactory sells a product called foam coat which is perfect for finishing these terain sections. When mixed with their hardener called Boost, it is nearly indestructable. I have built life sized foam monsters for a halloween attraction, finished with foam coat, which actually survived being left outside for over a year.

I've found that with the process I'm looking at, that there are some restrictions.

First, we can do slots, but no "holes". So it looks my design decision about not having exterior doors or windows placed into the structures was sound.

I've also found that in general, I want interior walls to be a minimum of 1/2" thick. This should prevent any damage caused by accidental brushing via arms/hands.

I can't have any "hanging structures". Basically, if I have stairs wrapping a pillar, all stairs have to start from the ground, I can't have them simply come out of the side of the pillar. (Though, a hot wire tool could give you that look if you so want it.)


I've also been toying around with random dungeon generators and google sketchup. I've noticed that what looks good on paper, doesn't always translate well into the 3d realm. On paper some things look like a series of rooms, where as in 3d it really looks like random walls thrown up into a large room. Definitely more work is needed on designing the "Zone Mortalis" concept a bit more.

 adamsouza wrote:
How many times are you going to want to battle inside the same buidling/courtyard/sewers ?

I've been playing Heroquest on the same board for, ooh, just over 20 years now...


People playing games like D&D, Star Wars, or any of the other little skirmish games that use fixed maps would also have a use for these.

I like this idea......get the price right and it could do well. Good luck