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So ordnance barrage weapons treat the hit as coming from the center of the blast template does this bypass the taus disruptor pod rules where firing from more than 12" away gives them shrouded?

The centre of the blast is used to determin cover saves, the shot still comes from the unit that fired it.
So no, it wouldn't bypass it.

I say no, the center is only used for direction. Not distance.

It's tricky isn't it because it says for purposes of determining cover resolve as if the hit came from the center of the blast..

The shot came from the gun, which came from the weapon in question. The shot does not come from the center of the blast marker.

 juraigamer wrote:
The shot came from the gun, which came from the weapon in question. The shot does not come from the center of the blast marker.

For the purposes of determining cover, it does. And for the purposes of allocation, it does.

Go read the entry of disruption pod, it doesnt matter where the shot came from, it saysweapons firing from over 12" away gives the vehicle shrouded.

"always assume the shot is coming from the centre of the blast marker, instead of from the firing model"

The barrage rules state that you use the center of the blast to determine where the weapon was fired from.

Where did the weapon fire from? The center of the blast.

Yeah, UMGuy is right, directly from the Tau FAQ, emphasis mine:

Page 30 – Armoury, Disruption Pod.
Change the last sentence to read “A vehicle with a disruption
pod has the Shrouded special rule against any weapons firing
from more than 12" away

The way this is worded, it does sound like it gets around the Barrage rule for determining cover.

Well, the weapon is on the firing model, and the firing model counts as being at the center of the blast, shouldn't the weapon also count as being at the center of the blast?

Does determining cover actually include determining whether a special rule takes effect, just because that special rule happens to include cover modifying effects?

 BlueDagger wrote:
"always assume the shot is coming from the centre of the blast marker, instead of from the firing model"

You missed a very important part of that quote...

Barrage weapons determine cover and wound allocation based on the final placement of the blast marker, after scatter. You have to measure range from the barrel, just like every other weapon type, otherwise range on Barrage weapons would be pointless, since the distance from the "origin point" i.e. the blast marker, to the target would always be 0.

... against any weapons firing from more then 12" away.

Where was the weapon fired from?

To determine if a unit has a cover save " always assume the shot is coming from the center of the blast marker, instead of from the firing model."

Where was the weapon fired from? The firing model? No, barrage tells us the center of the blast marker.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 alienvalentine wrote:
Barrage weapons determine cover and wound allocation based on the final placement of the blast marker, after scatter. You have to measure range from the barrel, just like every other weapon type, otherwise range on Barrage weapons would be pointless, since the distance from the "origin point" i.e. the blast marker, to the target would always be 0.

This is incorrect, you use the range of the weapon to determine legitimacy of the target. By the time DP's rules take effect the weapon has already hit and barrage's rules then come into play.

 BlueDagger wrote:
... against any weapons firing from more then 12" away.

Where was the weapon fired from?

To determine if a unit has a cover save " always assume the shot is coming from the center of the blast marker, instead of from the firing model."

Where was the weapon fired from? The firing model? No, barrage tells us the center of the blast marker.

The weapon was fired from the model.
The shot came from the centre of the blast marker (for determining cover saves).

Also we're determining if the vehicle gains shrouded, not determining its cover save. So centre of blast doesn't matter.

grendel083 hit the nail on the head. The vehicle in question is entitled to the Shrouded rule, since the weapon was fired from more than 12" away, but now the question becomes whether or not the vehicle is entitled to the resulting cover save. I'm leaning towards yes, since the cover save isn't granted by some sort of intervening terrain feature.

 grendel083 wrote:

 BlueDagger wrote:
... against any weapons firing from more then 12" away.

Where was the weapon fired from?

To determine if a unit has a cover save " always assume the shot is coming from the center of the blast marker, instead of from the firing model."

Where was the weapon fired from? The firing model? No, barrage tells us the center of the blast marker.

The weapon was fired from the model.
The shot came from the centre of the blast marker (for determining cover saves).

Also we're determining if the vehicle gains shrouded, not determining its cover save. So centre of blast doesn't matter.

I'm obliged to agree with this logic. In all reality it makes sense given the Disruption Pod's fluff.

Where does the shot come from? The weapon so arent they interchangeable?

 BlueDagger wrote:
... against any weapons firing from more then 12" away.

Where was the weapon fired from?

To determine if a unit has a cover save " always assume the shot is coming from the center of the blast marker, instead of from the firing model."

Where was the weapon fired from? The firing model? No, barrage tells us the center of the blast marker.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 alienvalentine wrote:
Barrage weapons determine cover and wound allocation based on the final placement of the blast marker, after scatter. You have to measure range from the barrel, just like every other weapon type, otherwise range on Barrage weapons would be pointless, since the distance from the "origin point" i.e. the blast marker, to the target would always be 0.

This is incorrect, you use the range of the weapon to determine legitimacy of the target. By the time DP's rules take effect the weapon has already hit and barrage's rules then come into play.

Youre not determining if the unit has cover from the shot, youre asked where the weapon is fired from.

I agree with grendel083; the question is whether Shrouded is gained, not what cover save the target has. Resolving cover is further along in the process, and since we aren't resolving cover yet, the Barrage conditions don't come into effect.

So here's the real puzzler, does the vehicle then get a cover save, or does the barrage weapon deny it? I've already voiced my opinion, what does everybody else think?

It gets the +2 cover save because it has Shrouded.

Do you think this logic also applies to Night Fighting as well? At the time a Barrage shot is fired, we determine if the target has Shrouded or Stealth; when we resolve cover saves, they get the CS bonus even if the shot lands on their head? This seems pretty fair to me.

You know Snapshot, you bring up a good point, I never thought of that. I'm inclined to agree with you, since the same mechanics are in play, that is, a unit getting Shrouded if being shot at from a certain distance.

 alienvalentine wrote:
You know Snapshot, you bring up a good point, I never thought of that. I'm inclined to agree with you, since the same mechanics are in play, that is, a unit getting Shrouded if being shot at from a certain distance.

Then throw LOS into the mix - you fire a Barrage weapon at a target at (say) 30" that you can't see, do they get Shrouded then? Following the logic that is emerging, we'd say yes, but this is clearly insane - you can't even see what your shooting at, but they get extra cover because the darkness is obscuring them a bit...

Hey, I never said the rules always make sense in universe...

 grendel083 wrote:

 BlueDagger wrote:
"always assume the shot is coming from the centre of the blast marker, instead of from the firing model"

You missed a very important part of that quote...

Indeed, very important. The start of the entry specifies this is only applied for a unit wounded by a barrage weapon (not glanced or penetrated). Vehicles are just always hit on the side armour, they still get cover saves from the direction of the firer.

 alienvalentine wrote:
Hey, I never said the rules always make sense in universe...

 Bausk wrote:

 grendel083 wrote:

 BlueDagger wrote:
"always assume the shot is coming from the centre of the blast marker, instead of from the firing model"

You missed a very important part of that quote...

Indeed, very important. The start of the entry specifies this is only applied for a unit wounded by a barrage weapon (not glanced or penetrated). Vehicles are just always hit on the side armour, they still get cover saves from the direction of the firer.

Wounds are equated to penetrating/glancing hits throughout the rules.

rigeld2 wrote:

 Bausk wrote:

 grendel083 wrote:

 BlueDagger wrote:
"always assume the shot is coming from the centre of the blast marker, instead of from the firing model"

You missed a very important part of that quote...

Indeed, very important. The start of the entry specifies this is only applied for a unit wounded by a barrage weapon (not glanced or penetrated). Vehicles are just always hit on the side armour, they still get cover saves from the direction of the firer.

Wounds are equated to penetrating/glancing hits throughout the rules.

So the difference between shred and Tank hunters is the +1 on the damage table, according to your interpretation I could have tank hunters on logans squad and reroll failed to wound rolls or have canis reroll failed glancing and penetrating rolls with his wolf claws. Penetrating and glancing hits only equate to wounds in terms of combat resolution. For all other purposes they are entirely different game mechanics and should be treated as such.

Except the part in the shred rules that clearly states it has no affect in vehicles and vice versa.

tedbpb wrote:
Except the part in the shred rules that clearly states it has no affect in vehicles and vice versa.

Granted Tank hunters states it but shred (that's the BRB page 41 for those of you playing at home) does not specify non-vehicle model nor does it state it has no effect on vehicles. However since you can't roll against a vehicles toughness (as it has none) it make it awfully difficult to re roll a to wound roll on a vehicle as per the rules for rolling to wound on pages 14, 24 and 25 of the BRB.