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So the rumor mill has High Elves up in May 2013.

Given what we know about how new armies are done:

New MC unit(likely lion riders or wingless dragons)
New large monster/vehicle kit.
All current metals to Finecast.
Magic items depleted down to 10-12 total.


Things I'd like to see for rules:
Silver Helms and/or Reavers becoming Core units
Shadow Warriors being useful(2x shots alone would fix that)
The following magic items being left alone: Armor of Caledor, Guardian Phoenix, Silver Wand, Folariaths Robe, Talisman of Saphery, Banner of Sorcery. Everything else I can live without.
Bolt throwers being useful or cheaper

Things I'd like to see for models:
New Shadow Warriors
Plastic Eagles
Unique special characters
New spearmen, archers and silver helms( almost certainly won't happen)

What all are you hoping for/expecting?

TALLER HATS!

Finecast the 6th ed Shadow warriors please.
Silver helms -might- go core if they get a new box.

Also, keeping in line with the monstruous cavalry releases, I expect (read, don't exactly want) white lion cavalry.

Allarielle and Handmaidens brought back in.

you mean http://www.games-workshop.com/gws/catalog/productDetail.jsp?catId=cat440062a&prodId=prod1670032a ?

None of the current plastics will get redone.

The only plastic kits from the last 10 years that I've seen updated are VC skeletons and Empire infantry.

The problems with the HE old plastics is that their scale varies wildly and some things(heads and hands usually) are proportioned way off.

I hadn't thought of Handmaidens. Could be a cool rare choice unit.

Nah, I mean the previous ones. http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2191/2131328254_afc37a3889.jpg I like them far better than these new chaps.

Also, get Eltharion back to when he was cool please. Blindfold the bastard again.

Here is my estimate:


Speed of Asuryan will be removed from most units, minus the shinny new products been released and commanders.
Great Eagle in FC, or stays as FC if they already have it, plastic eagle reserved for wood elves war hawks.
White Lion Down to 1 attack
Sword Master down to 1 attack
New elven armor introduced equivalent to full plate for most of Elites.
HE Mages will get some sword of floating tower dual kit, Tower of Hoeth / Obelisk

 Yojiro wrote:
Nah, I mean the previous ones. http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2191/2131328254_afc37a3889.jpg I like them far better than these new chaps.

Also, get Eltharion back to when he was cool please. Blindfold the bastard again.

That's funny. They are such a useless unit that I never even noticed they were updated.

I agree that the 6th edition ones look better.

Silver helm update would be nice, even better if they are core. Hopefully make the rest of core more attractive, the current 25% core 'tax' is pretty repetitive.

I concur with magic item list in OP, plus the helm of fortune.

For the monstrous unit, I'm thinking either drake riders (flying MC), demi-drakes (ground MC without cramping DP's style), or Elementals (MI).

 LunaHound wrote:

Here is my estimate:


Speed of Asuryan will be removed from most units, minus the shinny new products been released and commanders.
Great Eagle in FC, or stays as FC if they already have it, plastic eagle reserved for wood elves war hawks.
White Lion Down to 1 attack
Sword Master down to 1 attack
New elven armor introduced equivalent to full plate for most of Elites.
HE Mages will get some sword of floating tower dual kit, Tower of Hoeth / Obelisk

White Lions are already 1 attack.
If SM go to 1A then there is zero reason to take them over WL.

If SoA is removed the disparity between HE and DE will become even bigger, and if there should be any balance in this game it should be those two armies against each other.

 Aerethan wrote:

 Yojiro wrote:
Nah, I mean the previous ones. http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2191/2131328254_afc37a3889.jpg I like them far better than these new chaps.

Also, get Eltharion back to when he was cool please. Blindfold the bastard again.

That's funny. They are such a useless unit that I never even noticed they were updated.

I agree that the 6th edition ones look better.

I noticed because I used the 6th edition models for both my HE army and my Mordheim warband.. plus I am a Nagarythe fanboy.

If SoA is dropped, HE units had better get a palpable cost reduction to make up for it - SM's and WL's will plummet back to the crap they were before the new Army book, because no fething way anyone is taking them when they ASL and cost 15pts each.

And please please pleaaaaaaseeeeeeeeeee let them NOT put Intrigue at Court back in...

Hopefully something that will keep players from just spamming sea guard and swordmasters... So bland...

Magic Items. GONE.

Teclis. Nerfed to motown.

I think the unit wide ASF might be gone. Swordmasters will still have it.

I would like core to be fun and not feel like a tax

I want ASF taken off most units.

Get rid of the book and nerf Teclis

All cavalry to recieve a reduction in points so they may see the field more then once a blue moon.

And god please GW dont make a whitelion cav unit anything but that the book is called High Elves not citizens of chrace.

I'd be ok with losing ASF if we see a points reduction as well. As it stands, a DE warrior has the same stat line, hatred and are only 7 points, whereas an HE spearman is 9 points, no hatred but ASF.

I don't need my spearmen to hit first, so even if I didn't get hatred I'd be ok with just getting the 7 points. Archers also need a 2 point drop. 11 points just to get BS4? Empire archers are BS3 and Ld7 for only 7 points. +1BS and +1Ld are not worth 4 points per model on core. Archers should be 9 points.

Silver helms need to become core, reavers would be at least fielded sometimes if they were.


I agree that core currently feel like a 25% tax for HE.

We're in 8th now. You can't balance back to 7th (or earlier). What DE has doesn't matter nearly as much as TK/O&G/OK etc. If you kept balancing to old books the new books would be the same--just hardcover and more expensive.

DukeRustfield wrote:

I think the unit wide ASF might be gone. Swordmasters will still have it.

I would like it if the SoA rule was changed into something like all High Elf models with GW's strike in initiative order instead of ASL.
That would make both Swordmasters and White Lions still viable.

Silver helms going back to core would be good, even if cavalry is relatively weak in 8th.

As for characters and magic items, I fully agree Teclis needs a nerf, as he's just silly atm. And as for magic items, I don't think the book needs to be removed, but that's me.
What really boggles me is that Teclis is completely off the charts when compared to the other special characters, especially the Lords:
Tyrion is okish and Eltharion is passable, at best. And let's not go into depth about Alith Anar - I was really disappointed when they removed the rule he had before that if he was the army's general then the army would hate DE's. Though I fully understand it would be redundant with SoA...

I'm glad to see that I'm not the only one expecting and not wanting Lion Riding Cavalry. I'm a HE player of old before a leaving-all-my-models-at-my-friends-house-before-going-to-uni-and-never-seeing-him-again incident that cost me my army, and I'd like to come back to them soon - but if the lion ratio increases... well, maybe I'll just pass.

So, compiling a bit. The underlined entries are what I'd like to see, not what I expect.

Special Rules and army-wide changes
SoA - apply only to HE's using GW's, letting them Strike with initiative instead of ASL;
Lower the points cost across the table in accordance with the removal of SoA and to balance things out a bit with other armies;

Characters:
Tyrion - keep as is, perhaps lower his cost a tad;
Teclis - Nerf, please, I'd like to use a strong SC spellcaster without looking like TFG; (note: I expect this aswell)
Eltharion - Get rid of the damned griffon model and bring back the blind swordmaster one;
Alith Anar - I expect him to be removed in the next book See Tyrion + add the Shadow warrior's Nagarythe Hatred to all units in the army when playing vs DE's, replacing the usual "immune to panic" benefits.
Caradryan + Korhil - See Tyrion.
Add Alarielle.
Removal of the Dragon Mage entry nonsense - instead allow any lvl 2 mage to take a "younger" Dragon (with Sun Dragon stats).

Core Units:
Move Silver Helms to Core;
LSG getting access to Longbows;

Rare Units:
Lion Cavalry
Add Handmaidens to this slot.

Yes, I know... I can dream!

 htj wrote:
I'm glad to see that I'm not the only one expecting and not wanting Lion Riding Cavalry. I'm a HE player of old before a leaving-all-my-models-at-my-friends-house-before-going-to-uni-and-never-seeing-him-again incident that cost me my army, and I'd like to come back to them soon - but if the lion ratio increases... well, maybe I'll just pass.

But this is Army Book: White Lions and Friends!

I am hoping for some retouching to core prices and special rules (less special rules, cheaper), special troops tweaked with more defined roles and maybe a bit cheaper/more durable. Lion Cav would be cool for monstrous cav I admit, but dragon princes on mini dragons would be a blessing too, hopefully with a balls to the wall model kit.

Special characters and lords/heroes dropped in price across the board by a bit, tweaking of certain SC's, teclis/tyrion mainly, alith/eltharion could use a buff a bit, or they could blind him again and I would never use any other HQ! Haha!

Look out! These monsters are coming to a table near you!

Why would we lose/want to lose SoA? Its a fluffy rule that makes high elves semi-competant in Close Combat. People tend to complain about the reolls to hit in 8th but the reality, it was far worse in 7th.

Even if i was charged i'd hack down the front rank, no strike backs, and there was no steadfast rule. Rinse Repeat.


High Elves are currently a Low Middle Tier or some argue a low Tier army. Look at UK tournament results from this last year.

What I expect:

Harry over at Warseer predicted a flying chariot of sorts. While this sounds really stupid, i anticipate this will be our buffing machine, OR the mount for mages/archmages. Hopefully it'll look nice.

As much as I would like to run all cavalry armies like in 6th edition, i doubt silver helms will move to core. We might be able to expect Ellyrion Reavers though...

Our new MI/MC unit... I've heard we might be getting some kind of elementals, there's been rumors of the EverQueen and her handmaidens riding unicorns, and of course drake/lion riders.

Big one is our new rare choice. I think we can expect a "true" dragon prince on a dragon for a rare choice. Expect something along the lines of a sun dragon. Which brings me to...

Point reduction for monsters! They're so expensive for what they do!



Overall I think High Elves have a lot of solid rules, we're definitely on par with O&G and Empire, behind the curve of OK and VC, but still ahead of TK. With a few tweaks i think High Elves could surge back into the ranks of the elite, while maintaing inner balance.


Oh and i heard april for high elves.

I'd prefer that they didn't make our stuff cheaper but rather buffed the stuff that needs buffing to make them worth their points. We ARE supposed to be outnumbered after all.

 AlmightyWalrus wrote:
I'd prefer that they didn't make our stuff cheaper but rather buffed the stuff that needs buffing to make them worth their points. We ARE supposed to be outnumbered after all.

But arguably we shouldn't be outnumbered by elves whose units are equally powerful. If my spearmen lose ASF to go down to 7 points each I'm all for it.

Or look at Shadow Warriors. ASF does nothing for them, but they cost 16 each. DE Shades cost 16 points, and get 2x shots, eternal hatred, and have weapon options. The Light Armor on the Shadow Warriors is pointless.

Shades are worlds better, for the same cost.


ASF is what we are paying for, and honestly only a few units need it tactically. DP, WL, PG, and SM are the only units that take any kind of advantage of ASF while still doing their jobs. Archers don't need it but pay for it, spearmen don't need it but pay for it. Reavers, Shadow Warriors, Chariots, Sea Guard. None of those use ASF to it's actual advantage, but they are forced to pay for it.

Perhaps if ASF was a unit option that we could leave off to make things cheaper.

DE should be just as elite as HE, but they cram way more models into the same size army.

White Lion MC FTW!!!

And a royal Teclis Nerfing.


I don't think they will get rid of the army wide ASF. Its kinda the signature thing the HEs have.

I could see it not ignoring ASL from GWs anymore but thats it.


I forsee Spearmen, Seaguard, and Archers getting a points drop.

Another thing I see as possable is their mages having a restriction where one of them has to take High Magic.

Bolt Throwers will also probably drop in points too. Probably be around 65 pts, and possably a 3 for 1 slot.

 Grey Templar wrote:
White Lion MC FTW!!!

And a royal Teclis Nerfing.


I don't think they will get rid of the army wide ASF. Its kinda the signature thing the HEs have.

I could see it not ignoring ASL from GWs anymore but thats it.


I forsee Spearmen, Seaguard, and Archers getting a points drop.

Another thing I see as possable is their mages having a restriction where one of them has to take High Magic.

Bolt Throwers will also probably drop in points too. Probably be around 65 pts, and possably a 3 for 1 slot.

The problem is that ASF is considered in those points values. A spearman is only 9 points instead of 7 because he has ASF and the extra rank attacks. A DE warrior with shield is 7 points, same stats, eternal hatred, and much cheaper command upgrades.

So a unit of 20 DE Warriors with shields and command run 155, that same unit for HE runs 205. That is 50 points(7 DE spearmen worth) just to get ASF(which core units don't really need) and an extra 5 attacks, which they also don't need since they are not really there to kill things. Those 5 attacks aren't even capable of negating those 7 extra DE warriors for the points.

Core units just don't need ASF, at least not for HE. We also need more than 3 core units, 1 of which is just the other 2 mixed.

I'm fine with the mandatory High Magic provided the lore gets a little boost in utility, my scroll caddy usually takes it anyway.

I'd be ok with Teclis being removed altogether, but then I rarely use SC's that cost more than 200 points.

Do archers need it? Its arguable, i can't count how many times i've been charged by chaff attempting to knock a wound or two off my mage and i've managed to kill it prior to wounds being dealt.

Spears? totally worth 9 points. We get an extra rank for a total of 21 attacks or 16 when not charging. reroll to hit? hell yeah! That's increasing my damage output by a TON. And what magic do high elves tend to take when using big units of spears? Shadow or Beasts.

21 str 8 reroll attacks.....


Have fun.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Do archers need it? Its arguable, i can't count how many times i've been charged by chaff attempting to knock a wound or two off my mage and i've managed to kill it prior to wounds being dealt.

Spears? totally worth 9 points. We get an extra rank for a total of 21 attacks or 16 when not charging. reroll to hit? hell yeah! That's increasing my damage output by a TON. And what magic do high elves tend to take when using big units of spears? Shadow or Beasts.

21 str 8 reroll attacks.....


Have fun.

thelordcal wrote:
Do archers need it? Its arguable, i can't count how many times i've been charged by chaff attempting to knock a wound or two off my mage and i've managed to kill it prior to wounds being dealt.

Spears? totally worth 9 points. We get an extra rank for a total of 21 attacks or 16 when not charging. reroll to hit? hell yeah! That's increasing my damage output by a TON. And what magic do high elves tend to take when using big units of spears? Shadow or Beasts.

21 str 8 reroll attacks.....


Have fun.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Do archers need it? Its arguable, i can't count how many times i've been charged by chaff attempting to knock a wound or two off my mage and i've managed to kill it prior to wounds being dealt.

Spears? totally worth 9 points. We get an extra rank for a total of 21 attacks or 16 when not charging. reroll to hit? hell yeah! That's increasing my damage output by a TON. And what magic do high elves tend to take when using big units of spears? Shadow or Beasts.

21 str 8 reroll attacks.....


Have fun.

Archers shouldn't be getting charged or mages should bail out before they do.

And if you are relying on spearmen for offense, you don't understand spearmen, especially in their role for HE.

At the end of the day they are WS4 S3 T3 and A1. The same as a DE warrior who has eternal hatred, especially against HE. Now in a proper size game, those two units shouldn't be in combat with each other. Something bigger should be charging them to kill them off, which is what you want so that the expensive troops aren't killed off instead.

And the bigger point is that HE core units as they stand are a tax, not a major part of an offensive strategy. We take them only because we have to, not because they bring something massively useful like the other infantry.

So if I am forced to take mediocre troops, I'd rather they be cheap and plentiful, so as to absorb wounds instead of trying terribly to kill things with S3 all day. And unless your opponent is an idiot, or you IF, then Mindrazor shouldn't be going off unless the dice are against them.

Core are compulsory, and as such shouldn't be the focus of how your army functions offensively. They are the younger brother that your mom forced you to take with you to battle so that he feels included. You shouldn't rely on him to kill anything, and you should expect him to die quickly.

I'd be surprised if they drop ASF. It's the signature High Elf thing, makes them a unique army on the field, that manages to be both fragile, small in number, but still competitive because their troops hit first and hit almost all the time.

The most important thing to fix in the High Elf list is Core. Right now the only reason to take Core is because you have to. Dropping the points cost for Spear Elves and Archers would make them more desirable, but have the problem of making High Elves a little bit more like a horde army. So perhaps what's needed is some kind of buff that makes Core High Elf stuff worth the points that in the book. Exactly what that might be is a tricky question, because there's only so much you can do with Str 3 attacks, but if something can be found to make these guys worth their present points it would be the ideal solution.

 Aerethan wrote:
The problem is that ASF is considered in those points values. A spearman is only 9 points instead of 7 because he has ASF and the extra rank attacks. A DE warrior with shield is 7 points, same stats, eternal hatred, and much cheaper command upgrades.

So a unit of 20 DE Warriors with shields and command run 155, that same unit for HE runs 205. That is 50 points(7 DE spearmen worth) just to get ASF(which core units don't really need) and an extra 5 attacks, which they also don't need since they are not really there to kill things. Those 5 attacks aren't even capable of negating those 7 extra DE warriors for the points.

Well, thing is, if the special rule isn't worth what you're currently paying... there's more options than dropping the special rule and claiming the points saving. You can just drop the price so you're only paying what ASF is worth (so drop High Elves to 8 points, and drop the cost of full command) - that's a pretty solid price for rerolling attack dice and an extra rank of attacks. Or you consider other ways to make Spear Elves worth 9 points,


Then there's the problem that the Dark Elf book is just stupidly underpriced. Trying to make stuff equal to that would mean making everything in every other book cheaper. Instead you just set the High Elf book to the other recent books, and we all continue to wait until the Dark Elf book is redone to something more sensible.