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Hi there - inspired by this thread - http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/0/497255.page - I thought I'd try to estimate the Legion sizes prior to the breakout of the Heresy. The HH:Betrayal FW book gives this point as pre-Isstvan.
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From that book, and the other HH books, we can assume a 'regular' sized Legion is about 100,000 strong (Death Guard are not notably small or large at 95,000, and Emperors Children, while starting small, were put at 110,000 pre-Heresy, without comment on them being large or small). A mid-large legion would be 150,000, and the largest (Ultramarines) are over 200,000. The smallest, the Thousand Sons, are meant to be around 10,000 (though I can't find the source). I've placed actual, stated, GW-source figures in green. The rest are estimated based on various sources.

If anyone has more information, please let me know the source!!

I -- Dark Angels: 100,000
II -- (Deleted)
III -- Emperor's Children: 110,000 (HH: Betrayal)
IV -- Iron Warriors: 100,000
V -- White Scars: 100,000
VI -- Space Wolves: ~70,000 (described as smaller than average)
VII -- Imperial Fists: ~100,000 (implied by Shadows of Treachery)
VIII -- Night Lords: 100,000
IX -- Blood Angels: 120,000 (Fear to Tread)
X -- Iron Hands: 100,000
XI -- (Deleted)
XII -- World Eaters: 150,000 (HH:Betrayal)
XIII -- Ultramarines: 250,000 (Know No Fear & Dan Abnett)
XIV -- Death Guard: 95,000 (HH:Betrayal)
XV -- Thousand Sons: ~10,000
XVI -- Sons of Horus: 150,000 (HH:Betrayal)
XVII -- Word Bearers: 200,000 (150,000 at Monarchia, increased by the time of the Heresy according to Dan Abnett on Youtube)
XVIII -- Salamanders: ~70,000 (described as smaller than average)
IXX -- Raven Guard: 90,000 (Deliverance Lost)
XX -- Alpha Legion: 100,000

 ArbitorIan wrote:
Hi there - inspired by this thread - http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/0/497255.page - I thought I'd try to estimate the Legion sizes prior to the breakout of the Heresy. The HH:Betrayal FW book gives this point as pre-Isstvan.

From that book, and the other HH books, we can assume a 'regular' sized Legion is about 100,000 strong (Death Guard are not notably small or large at 95,000, and Emperors Children, while starting small, were put at 110,000 pre-Heresy, without comment on them being large or small). A mid-large legion would be 150,000, and the largest (Ultramarines) are over 200,000. The smallest, the Thousand Sons, are meant to be around 10,000 (though I can't find the source). I've placed actual, stated, GW-source figures in green. The rest are estimated based on various sources.

If anyone has more information, please let me know the source!!

I -- Dark Angels -- 100,000
II -- (Deleted)
III -- Emperor's Children -- 110,000 (HH: Betrayal)
IV -- Iron Warriors -- 100,000
V -- White Scars -- 100,000
VI -- Space Wolves -- 70,000 (described as smaller than average)
VII -- Imperial Fists -- 170,000 (described as one of the largest legions)
VIII -- Night Lords -- 100,000
IX -- Blood Angels -- 100,000
X -- Iron Hands -- 100,000
XI -- (Deleted)
XII -- World Eaters -- 150,000 (HH:Betrayal)
XIII -- Ultramarines -- 220,000 (Know No Fear)
XIV -- Death Guard -- 95,000 (HH:Betrayal)
XV -- Thousand Sons -- 10,000
XVI -- Sons of Horus -- 150,000 (HH:Betrayal)
XVII -- Word Bearers -- 150,000 (according to Dan Abnett on Youtube)
XVIII -- Salamanders -- 70,000 (described as smaller than average)
IXX -- Raven Guard -- 100,000
XX -- Alpha Legion -- 100,000

I thought the Ultras was at least 230k Space Marines at the end of the Heresy. Dan Abnett on Youtube says 250.000 or more, and also to facilitate the 23 original chapters, which I then think was further spread. By the end of the HH there seem to be like 400k. loyalists remaining since they were split into about 400 chapters. Grey Knights Codex.

 Beaviz81 wrote:

I thought the Ultras was at least 230k Space Marines at the end of the Heresy. Dan Abnett on Youtube says 250.000 or more, and also to facilitate the 23 original chapters, which I then think was further spread. By the end of the HH there seem to be like 400k. loyalists remaining since they were split into about 400 chapters. Grey Knights Codex.

Thanks - I've folded in those revised numbers - I'd forgotten about the whole '23 chapters' thing..

However, surely to make 23 chapters there only needs to be 23,000 Ultras left at the end - not 230,000!

 ArbitorIan wrote:

 Beaviz81 wrote:

I thought the Ultras was at least 230k Space Marines at the end of the Heresy. Dan Abnett on Youtube says 250.000 or more, and also to facilitate the 23 original chapters, which I then think was further spread. By the end of the HH there seem to be like 400k. loyalists remaining since they were split into about 400 chapters. Grey Knights Codex.

Thanks - I've folded in those revised numbers - I'd forgotten about the whole '23 chapters' thing..

However, surely to make 23 chapters there only needs to be 23,000 Ultras left at the end - not 230,000!

It's extremely tempting to believe that it was 23k. Ultras left, but no. What I meant was that from how I see it. The 23 original chapters were divided further by ten. Because 1000 Space Marines can hold a planet normally. That was what I meant. of course it's my flanderization and people can dismiss it as they see fit, but it's how I regard things after the HH. I sort of rationalize the Codex into being that 1000 Space Marines are more easily rushed into combat than 10.000 to explain things.

30K Chapters number 10,000 rather than 1000 (Companies) in that period.

Also, IIRC Deliverance Lost stated the Raven Guard at 80,000.

May I recommend putting a ~ before some figures, such as the Space Wolves, to emphasise the speculation behind some figures?

Lovely stuff Ian, subscribed.

Pretty sure the source for the Thousand Sons was A Thousand Sons (the novel).

Should you wish to double check the Ultramarine/Word Bearer numbers ('fraid I can't right now), the vid was this one or Part 2: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GYhs5iBQo2A

Good list, couple of additional notes. Ravenguard are stated as 90K pre-Istvaan massacre per deliverance lost.

The most recent HH book, Shadows of Treachery, has the Imperial fists at 90-100k since the retribution fleet of 30k marines is said to be 1/3 of the legion's strength.

As of of First heretic, the entire word bearers legion was mustered at 150k (stated to be the second largest legion), though they may have increased numbers by the time of the heresy.

Blood angels are said to be 120k as of fear to tread. Can't think of any others at the moment.

 Just Dave wrote:

Also, IIRC Deliverance Lost stated the Raven Guard at 80,000.

I thought it put them at 6,000. That's why they were in such dire straights!

 kronk wrote:

 Just Dave wrote:

Also, IIRC Deliverance Lost stated the Raven Guard at 80,000.

I thought it put them at 6,000. That's why they were in such dire straights!

That was before the massacre. The 6000 that came out of it was the shell-shocked remains.

Lexicanum has collected some stats on them, each of which has a citation:

Ultramarines - 250,000[9]
Sons of Horus - Between 130,000 and 170,000[7b]
World Eaters - 150,000[7c]
Word Bearers - 100,000 to 150,000[8][11]
Blood Angels - 120,000[11]
Death Guard - 95,000[7d]
Raven Guard - 80,000[10]
Emperor's Children - 50,000[7e]

http://wh40k.lexicanum.com/wiki/Space_Marine_Legion#.UOSr7G9JNq8

 Harriticus wrote:
Lexicanum has collected some stats on them, each of which has a citation:

Ultramarines - 250,000[9]
Sons of Horus - Between 130,000 and 170,000[7b]
World Eaters - 150,000[7c]
Word Bearers - 100,000 to 150,000[8][11]
Blood Angels - 120,000[11]
Death Guard - 95,000[7d]
Raven Guard - 80,000[10]
Emperor's Children - 50,000[7e]

http://wh40k.lexicanum.com/wiki/Space_Marine_Legion#.UOSr7G9JNq8

Thanks guys - these are most of the same sources for mine.

Maybe we should keep Word Bearers around 175,000, since we have conflicting sources. I should edit that Emperor's Children number on Lexicanum, though - according to the page they reference, it's 110,000, but it states that they suffered the most from culling their Legion at Istvaan (maybe 50,000 is the post-cull number?)

Also there is a 4th fellowship of the TS which wasn't present on prospero,
so basically 11000 -12000 would be more accurate...

So if we take all these numbers and calculate we get ~1.915.000 Space Marines at the time prior to HH.

Only 2 million Space Marines in the galaxy was present at their peak? I am kind of disappointed, I expected at least 3 or 4 million ( that would be more realistic considering that all those billions of Regiments in 41'st millennium could worth about 3 million Astartes ).

 ArbitorIan wrote:

 Harriticus wrote:
Lexicanum has collected some stats on them, each of which has a citation:

Ultramarines - 250,000[9]
Sons of Horus - Between 130,000 and 170,000[7b]
World Eaters - 150,000[7c]
Word Bearers - 100,000 to 150,000[8][11]
Blood Angels - 120,000[11]
Death Guard - 95,000[7d]
Raven Guard - 80,000[10]
Emperor's Children - 50,000[7e]

http://wh40k.lexicanum.com/wiki/Space_Marine_Legion#.UOSr7G9JNq8

Thanks guys - these are most of the same sources for mine.

Maybe we should keep Word Bearers around 175,000, since we have conflicting sources. I should edit that Emperor's Children number on Lexicanum, though - according to the page they reference, it's 110,000, but it states that they suffered the most from culling their Legion at Istvaan (maybe 50,000 is the post-cull number?)

After their disastrous losses to a warp accident their numbers dropped to 50,000. This is stated to be their size at the start of their heresy

 Harriticus wrote:

 ArbitorIan wrote:

 Harriticus wrote:
Lexicanum has collected some stats on them, each of which has a citation:

Ultramarines - 250,000[9]
Sons of Horus - Between 130,000 and 170,000[7b]
World Eaters - 150,000[7c]
Word Bearers - 100,000 to 150,000[8][11]
Blood Angels - 120,000[11]
Death Guard - 95,000[7d]
Raven Guard - 80,000[10]
Emperor's Children - 50,000[7e]

http://wh40k.lexicanum.com/wiki/Space_Marine_Legion#.UOSr7G9JNq8

Thanks guys - these are most of the same sources for mine.

Maybe we should keep Word Bearers around 175,000, since we have conflicting sources. I should edit that Emperor's Children number on Lexicanum, though - according to the page they reference, it's 110,000, but it states that they suffered the most from culling their Legion at Istvaan (maybe 50,000 is the post-cull number?)

After their disastrous losses to a warp accident their numbers dropped to 50,000. This is stated to be their size at the start of their heresy

The Space Marines are the glory-hogs. Of course the Imperial Army far outmatched the super-humans. A few thousand troopers and you have the equal of a Space Marine, but 40% of the Imperial Army of countless billions joining Horus, the rest remained loyal. That's numbers not frequently counted as their fates are so easily forgotten. The IOM can survive without the Space Marines for a lot longer than they can without the Imperial Guard and Navy. But without the Space Marines the IOM would loose all capability to regain territory and only manage to defend, and would turn from an Empire with still some ounce of strength left into the Confederacy anno 1864.

To clarify on Shadows of Treachery/imperial fists it does indeed appear to be 100,000.

The numbers are: 30,000 sent, 10,000 lost in the warp.

After the loss in the warp someone says "a force that was still a fifth of our legion's full strength." Assuming he's referring to the force after casualties (20,000), that's 100,000 marines altogether.
Then again, if the IF are indeed one of the largest legions, it may mean the pre-casualty force was a fifth; totalling 150,000

I do think its the former interpretation though.
*I've not added spoilers, as its in the first 20pages of the story*

Why was there so few TS ? I've always wondered.

 mayfist wrote:
Why was there so few TS ? I've always wondered.

Easy peasy. They were so mutated that they almost were eliminated at the get-go. Only a mad gamble by Magnus saved them, and that eventually cost them dearly down the road. They were always the smallest legion, and the most reliant on help from their psykers to mitigate their few numbers.

I remember reading that word bearers were the second largest legion at 200,000. Which is where you have them under the blue guys

 ArbitorIan wrote:

 Beaviz81 wrote:

I thought the Ultras was at least 230k Space Marines at the end of the Heresy. Dan Abnett on Youtube says 250.000 or more, and also to facilitate the 23 original chapters, which I then think was further spread. By the end of the HH there seem to be like 400k. loyalists remaining since they were split into about 400 chapters. Grey Knights Codex.

Thanks - I've folded in those revised numbers - I'd forgotten about the whole '23 chapters' thing..

However, surely to make 23 chapters there only needs to be 23,000 Ultras left at the end - not 230,000!

This is where the fluff from BL doesn't jive with the fluff from the game.

However, interestingly enough, Codex: Grey Knights says there were around 400 2nd Founding Chapters, not 40. That sits more in line with the Ultramarines finishing the Scouring with around 220K-250K Marines (the "more than half", according to the fluff).

So I guess you have to take into account what fluff you like better I guess. I think the BL wanted the Space Marines to be a bit more grandiose, and to make them the stars of the Great Crusade. For that, they needed to have a much larger number of Marines. If the Marine Legions were only around 2,000-25,000 Marines each, the Imperial Army would have to play a far bigger role in the stories (though you can argue they probably should have anyway).

It should be noted that these numbers aren't "full strength" (I.E. the strength of the legion assuming all ranks full with no casualties). The organizational strength of the Death Guard is stated in Betrayal to be 490,000 Marines divided into 7 equally sized Great Company, so obviously the numbers we are pulling from various sources will vary widely based on time (and possibly location, as organizational logistics in the setting seem to have a tendency to "lose" entire units/regiments, etc. nIn beauracratic paperwork.)

Does anyone know where in shadows of treachery it gives IF size? I made the lexicanum legion size list so I'd like to add it but we have a very stringent citation policy

 Harriticus wrote:
Does anyone know where in shadows of treachery it gives IF size? I made the lexicanum legion size list so I'd like to add it but we have a very stringent citation policy

Great work on the Legion size list then. You're after the top of p.28 for 5th of the legion comment, and bottom of p.29 for the numbers. 33 (top) also clarifies the numbers.

I do think Lexicanum should mention the change to the size of the Legions, to explain conflict with earlier, smaller sizes given, personally.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Shadows of Treachery also includes a 114th Company in the Night Lords, so I guess they're at least 110,000?

No actual figures for the Night Lords given though...

Pages 13 & 19 of Deliverance Lost: The Raven Guard were 80000 rather than 90000

chaos0xomega wrote:
It should be noted that these numbers aren't "full strength" (I.E. the strength of the legion assuming all ranks full with no casualties). The organizational strength of the Death Guard is stated in Betrayal to be 490,000 Marines divided into 7 equally sized Great Company, so obviously the numbers we are pulling from various sources will vary widely based on time (and possibly location, as organizational logistics in the setting seem to have a tendency to "lose" entire units/regiments, etc. nIn beauracratic paperwork.)

The "full strength" that you're referring to never existed. It was the size of the legion that Mortarion wanted to have but I don't believe he ever accomplished.

The average size 4 a legion was 100,000 but 1 q) are you sure 1000 sons were 10,000. From the name i would think 1000,which could be why the wolves crumped them

&theyshallknownofear wrote:
The average size 4 a legion was 100,000 but 1 q) are you sure 1000 sons were 10,000. From the name i would think 1000,which could be why the wolves crumped them

They were down to 1,000 after being decimated by fleshchange. Then Magnus was recovered and he was able to stop it. They had recovered up to 10,000 by the time of the Heresy.

jareddm wrote:

&theyshallknownofear wrote:
The average size 4 a legion was 100,000 but 1 q) are you sure 1000 sons were 10,000. From the name i would think 1000,which could be why the wolves crumped them

They were down to 1,000 after being decimated by fleshchange. Then Magnus was recovered and he was able to stop it. They had recovered up to 10,000 by the time of the Heresy.

Again 1000 of them fled from Prospero (insert irony)....There was a whole 4th fellowship which was sent away by Magnus....But they were decimated by the WE when they returned to the Prospero seeking answers....
So minimum 11000....Also we don't know how much Magnus sent away...

Decimated means lost one in ten men.

O yes I forgot "the Roman way"... Anyway, you know what I mean...

The Thousand Sons were always an indirect force, they conjure things from the warp to boost their paltry numbers (heck I suspect as much from even before they turned to chaos). And I can see their numbers going from 10k. to 1000 and then falling further facing the World Eaters to about 900.