Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

With the rise of 6th and all the changes to CC i've been wondering whats the best way to load out GK Terminators/Paladins.
Back in 5th before the FAQ when all types of allocation shenanigans were possible a mixed weapon loads was the way to go. That all changed and preferences have changed.
At the moment I personally run a mix of Halberds for the 2+ I, Swords on the Special Weapons for the 4++, at least 1 Hammer per 5 men and a Warding Stave or two.
People i have spoken too say they like to run all Hammers or all Halberds. One even suggested all Falchions and a brotherhood banner for 5 attacks on the charge and auto force activation!

So Dakka, whats your preference and why?

I'd leave them on the shelf, but that's just me. If you're helbent on running paladins/terminators, you build them to the role you want them to play. A good weapons base IMO is 50/50 hammers/halberds.

Im still a fan of the ol' terminator/paladin builds. Purifiers just dont seem to float my boat, such expensive troops just to get bale flamed down. No swords? 4++ can be useful. The meta seems to be favoring hammers but against something like TH/SS terminators, terminators and paladins would be at a big disadvantage.

Unless your meta is 100% CSM hardcore players yes you're going to have to fear the heldrake on a game to game basis. But what is more of the meta than baleflamers is AP2/1 in plasma/melta/las I guarentee you'll see more shots of those types hitting your units over a heldrake. And I agree GK terminators attacking TH/SS terminators is suicide. Shoot, not having enough hammers in a term squad will be suicide to attack a powerfist term squad.

I run termies alot (20-30 in a 2k game), and what works best for me is is to do either 1 halberd/4 hammers or 1 hammer/4 halberds per 5 models, and I always combat squad them. Then you task each squad with a target. For instance, you send the halberds after some MEQs, the hammers after vehicles and MCs, etc. You want a halberd so you have a guy who can strike at I6 with a force weapon, and you want a hammer so any squad can take down a tank. I've found that specialization works best for me personally.

Now, a word on swords: they are useless, and here's why: compared to your other (free) options, they just aren't good.
1) Hammers are AP2. As has been shown in other posts, the ability to ignore armor is extremely powerful. For instance, a terminator will on average ignore 5/6 of the wounds you manage inflict on him. Hammers can become str 10 (with hammerhand) AP2 weapons. You can crush tanks with this, and deal with 2+ and high toughness units.
2) Halberds are I6 and AP3. Against the vast majority of units, this means you'll be striking first. This makes them even more useful against MEQs, or just about any typical I4 unit. You'll be ignoring their armor saves before they even get a chance to hit you, reducing the amount of attacks they get to make against you in return. And of course it's a force weapon, so against some characters if you get lucky you can ID them right off the bat (slim chance though).
3) Swords mean you strike when everyone else does, at your normal strength. Sure, you get a 4++, but most of the time you'll be getting your armor save anyway! So you might as well kill them before they try to kill you. If you're fighting something that's AP2, then they are usually sporting a 2+ as well (other terminators), or have extra toughness (MCs). Thus, hammers are the better weapon to try and actually inflict some damage rather merely prolonging your life with a 4++ as they laugh at you with their 2+. Obviously it's best to avoid those situations altogether, but if you get forced there then you might as well try to get some of your points back

The only situation in which I see swords as the best option are when fighting troops (T3-T5) that are either I7 or have AP2 weapons AND a 3+ save. Also some tyranid units might fall into an acceptable range because of the force weapons (5+ to wound, but you get instant death and they ignore your armor). However, in general I think your swords are best left in the armory.

Paladins are better than terminators, extra wound and weapon skill is well worth it. And if you go to tournaments, you will see chaos triple helldrake lists, becasue they are so darn strong.

I load my 10 man squad as bro banner, 4 hammers, warding stave, 2 swords, 2 halberds.

I love swords for the 4++ invun, with being ap3 I dont see halberds as necessary, against all the AP2 weapons, you will be striking first anyway, at least with the sword, is if you cant kill them, you have a better save to fall back on.

I think sword vs halberd is more personal preference than anything else, I prefer the better invun than the better initiative, but I just take 2 of each,

4 hammers, plus bro banners, is 1 hammer attacks on the charge, so hitting on 3s (WS 5 paladins) killing on 2s. Very good. Also you have the warding stave and swords at the front to protect with the better invun saves

I still love playing my palain heavy list, dont believe people that say leave them at home, you just have to use them right. And they have to be supported. A typical list for me now would be:

Draigo

10 pladins
solodin

dreadknight

Deystroyer Lord
wratihs

5 warrios, night scythe
5 warriors, night scythe

annihalation barge

Necron cheap flyers provide great support to the death star..

I think i agree with more hammers, but i don't think that swords are useless.
There will be occasions where a halberd wont kill its target, against terminators and such. I would rather have a few paladins with a 4++ to try and weather the attacks than take my chances at I6. To me the ratio of 2 hammers, 2 halberds and 1 Sword per 5 makes the most sense, swapping out 1 sword for a warding stave per 10. I would only take a banner if i was sure i wasn't going to combat squad, and the only time i tend not to combat squad is in Emperors Will and Purge the Alien games for a solid scoring Pallystar with Draigo.

All hammers is another option i have been thinking about. With 2 wounds, 2+/5++ and WS5 the chances of taking heavy casualties from non AP2 weapons are slim. Rending units, units with high volumes of attacks and of course TH/SS terminators will still be a threat but for the majority of combats hammers will suffice for tanks, MC, Instant killing without force weapon activation.
It sucks they only give one hammer per box of paladins, other than Ebay where are you guys getting your extra hammers?

 Messy0 wrote:
I think i agree with more hammers, but i don't think that swords are useless.
There will be occasions where a halberd wont kill its target, against terminators and such. I would rather have a few paladins with a 4++ to try and weather the attacks than take my chances at I6. To me the ratio of 2 hammers, 2 halberds and 1 Sword per 5 makes the most sense, swapping out 1 sword for a warding stave per 10. I would only take a banner if i was sure i wasn't going to combat squad, and the only time i tend not to combat squad is in Emperors Will and Purge the Alien games for a solid scoring Pallystar with Draigo.

All hammers is another option i have been thinking about. With 2 wounds, 2+/5++ and WS5 the chances of taking heavy casualties from non AP2 weapons are slim. Rending units, units with high volumes of attacks and of course TH/SS terminators will still be a threat but for the majority of combats hammers will suffice for tanks, MC, Instant killing without force weapon activation.
It sucks they only give one hammer per box of paladins, other than Ebay where are you guys getting your extra hammers?

I've also bought a lot of power armor boxes that I only need 4 hammers for, so the extra hammers I snipped them off the tip and fixed them onto the tips of terminator halberds. The long twohanded hammer look is kind of sweet.

There are still a lot of viable options, and there is still some benefit to running a mix of weapons.


First off, While there is more AP 2 shooting in the Meta currently, there is far less AP 2 in close combat, especially on MEQ units. Terminators may take more damage from shooting, they are much more durable in the assault phase. It may pay to be a bit more aggressive with your TEQ units. [not full on Assault vehicle aggressive, but look for good combat opportunities as the game goes on]


Nemesis weapons:

A lot depends on what unit you are running and how, but here are my general opinions.


Hammer: By far the best option for Damage. The STR and AP 2 make it the most damaging weapon of the group.

Halberd: I think these are better on Terminators than Paladins. Terminators are more vulnerable to "normal" attacks, so being able to take out some enemy models at INT 6 is good durability for them.

Sword: I these are great on Paladins. Paladins have the 2 wounds to deal with "normal" attacks, but they are super vulnerable to AP 2 attacks, especially S8 powerfist attacks. Also, you see Paladins paired with a Librarian very often, mostly stealth for durability in the shooting phase. Also, you get quicksilver, so you can run swords and still hit first.

Falcions: You have less damage than the Hammer. You have less durability than the Halberd or the Sword. You cost more points..........Just No. They are priced for giving a model 2 attacks, but the FAQ says only 1 attack.

Stave: You can pull some fun shenanigans with this, though it is expensive. Against massed AP2 attacks, you can put all of them on the stave guy until he fails one of his 2++ saves. With good rolls, you can save your Paladins from a ton of Damage from a TH/SS terminator unit That being said, how often to you see massed AP2 close combat attacks anymore?



Other than that, Take as many psycannons as you can have.
Consider a Banner or Psybolt ammo in 10 man squads, though it is not a "must have"

The only real benefit of halberds is that since they allow you to strike first, you take fewer wounds (and even then, only against AP3 or worse, since most AP2 weapons are I1). However, against most enemies, the number of extra wounds you take by bringing halberds instead of hammers is insignificant. But the additional wounds inflicted by a hammer (especially for a unit that cannot sweeping advance) is highly significant. Advantage: Hammers.

Swords only provide a benefit against AP2 weaponry. However, since most AP2 weapons are carried by TEQ, the ability to actually kill the things trying to kill you is far more valuable than a +1 to your invulnerable. Advantage: Hammers.

The only person in a Terminator or Paladin unit that shouldn't have a Hammer is the Justicar (because you don't want your Justicar with a Hammer to get challenged by a TacSarge with a PFist; better to give him a sword for this kind of situation). However, I have heard some argue that the Justicar should be given a hammer anyway, despite this risk (because they're just that good).

Point is, hammers on everyone with the possible exception of the Justicar (who might want a sword).

reaper with no name wrote:
The only real benefit of halberds is that since they allow you to strike first, you take fewer wounds (and even then, only against AP3 or worse, since most AP2 weapons are I1). However, against most enemies, the number of extra wounds you take by bringing halberds instead of hammers is insignificant. But the additional wounds inflicted by a hammer (especially for a unit that cannot sweeping advance) is highly significant. Advantage: Hammers.

Swords only provide a benefit against AP2 weaponry. However, since most AP2 weapons are carried by TEQ, the ability to actually kill the things trying to kill you is far more valuable than a +1 to your invulnerable. Advantage: Hammers.

The only person in a Terminator or Paladin unit that shouldn't have a Hammer is the Justicar (because you don't want your Justicar with a Hammer to get challenged by a TacSarge with a PFist; better to give him a sword for this kind of situation). However, I have heard some argue that the Justicar should be given a hammer anyway, despite this risk (because they're just that good).

Point is, hammers on everyone with the possible exception of the Justicar (who might want a sword).

For the most part I agree with you. However, there are more and more models which are able to take AP2 weapons that hit at above INT 1 as 6th edition goes on. I know that Necrons and DE have them in their FAQ's. I know that CSM have them in their book, (and not just on special characters). I have not had a chance to comb through the Dark Angles book yet, but I think they have some as well.

having at least 1 sword or Stave in a unit is more powerful in 6th edition as you stack a ton of saves onto that guy, (as many as it takes to kill him). he can be there simply to take any AP 2 at INT 2+ hits to try and protect your hammers until they strike.

I think that running all of a single weapon may be the best most of the time, but it can also leave you being hard countered by the one unit that is good against that weapon. (TEQ against swords or halberds, AP2 at INT against hammers). having a couple of each makes you a little less good some of the time, but it also makes you a little less bad some of the time as well.

 svendrex wrote:
Stave: You can pull some fun shenanigans with this, though it is expensive. Against massed AP2 attacks, you can put all of them on the stave guy until he fails one of his 2++ saves. With good rolls, you can save your Paladins from a ton of Damage from a TH/SS terminator unit That being said, how often to you see massed AP2 close combat attacks anymore?

Its not so much about massed AP2. Characters like Abby, DK's, DC dreadnaughts, MC all strike at Initiative with AP2 high str attacks but I agree with svendrex. As soon as you start specialising and taking all single weapons you may do well against the majority of basic units (who you probably would have crushed the same way with a mix of weapons) but really weaken yourself to those specialised units.
Swords, Hammers and Halberds all have their place and roll. The trick is now to magnatise my paladins/terminators so I can swap them out easily. Its jack of all trades, master of none but ever master has a hard counter. Warding Staves are a no brainer, even if they make just 1 PF save on your paladin its made its point back twice over.
Also, i have found the majority of TEQ units i go up against are around 5 models. Paladins are WS 5 with 2 wounds, so you already have a big advantage. A squad of 10 paladins with 8 halberds/swords and 2 hammers on the charge with would have 24 AP3 attacks with a good chance with hammerhand to get 10+ wounds. Thats good odds to get at least a few kills on TEQ even before your hammers have had a chance to attack. Overall, as with shooting volume of attacks can be just as effective as AP2 strikes which is one of my justifications for still running a mix of weapons.

 svendrex wrote:

reaper with no name wrote:
The only real benefit of halberds is that since they allow you to strike first, you take fewer wounds (and even then, only against AP3 or worse, since most AP2 weapons are I1). However, against most enemies, the number of extra wounds you take by bringing halberds instead of hammers is insignificant. But the additional wounds inflicted by a hammer (especially for a unit that cannot sweeping advance) is highly significant. Advantage: Hammers.

Swords only provide a benefit against AP2 weaponry. However, since most AP2 weapons are carried by TEQ, the ability to actually kill the things trying to kill you is far more valuable than a +1 to your invulnerable. Advantage: Hammers.

The only person in a Terminator or Paladin unit that shouldn't have a Hammer is the Justicar (because you don't want your Justicar with a Hammer to get challenged by a TacSarge with a PFist; better to give him a sword for this kind of situation). However, I have heard some argue that the Justicar should be given a hammer anyway, despite this risk (because they're just that good).

Point is, hammers on everyone with the possible exception of the Justicar (who might want a sword).

For the most part I agree with you. However, there are more and more models which are able to take AP2 weapons that hit at above INT 1 as 6th edition goes on. I know that Necrons and DE have them in their FAQ's. I know that CSM have them in their book, (and not just on special characters). I have not had a chance to comb through the Dark Angles book yet, but I think they have some as well.

having at least 1 sword or Stave in a unit is more powerful in 6th edition as you stack a ton of saves onto that guy, (as many as it takes to kill him). he can be there simply to take any AP 2 at INT 2+ hits to try and protect your hammers until they strike.

I think that running all of a single weapon may be the best most of the time, but it can also leave you being hard countered by the one unit that is good against that weapon. (TEQ against swords or halberds, AP2 at INT against hammers). having a couple of each makes you a little less good some of the time, but it also makes you a little less bad some of the time as well.

Taking a single guy with a stave is certainly viable (for the very reason you illustrated), but I was referring specifically to hammers vs swords vs halberds. And swords only offer a +1. You cannot reasonably expect to stack saves onto them, because they're statistically going to die on the second. A guy with a sword is only 17% more resistant to AP2 weapons. And he's about 83% less effective against enemies with 2+ armor saves (which are the things most likely to have AP2 weapons). Swords make you slightly more effective in situations where you're most likely screwed to begin with. Hammers make you better at the thing you're supposed to do (killing stuff) and turn what would be your kryptonite (other TeQs) into an even fight. And they allow you to inflict instant death without needing to use Hammerhand ("Shadow in the Warp? Sorry, my Terminators don't care"). And they make you better able to deal with monstrous creatures and vehicles (there are few things more terrifying to a Land Raider driver than multiple GK Terminators with hammers).

Trading one hammer for one sword is not going to save you from Royal Courts with Warscythes (any more than having 1 hammer will save you from Tactical Terminators). Trading 2 begins to dilute your ability to deal with either one. I cannot see it being worthwhile at this point in time.

But if you like mixing it up, go ahead. I use Justicar Thawn, so I don't get to criticize people's build choices.

Dragging this up...

Anyone else ave opinions on this? Interested considering the Deathstars that J2Y is deathmatching at the moment...

Thread is being locked due to thread necromancy.