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Made in us
Calculating Commissar




pontiac, michigan; usa

Now some might say well that would be stupid as a doomwheel or hellpit might just jump around. Well i never said models that size would benefit from the rule. You then might ask well if large models can't then what's so different about this idea? Simple. Weapons teams. A warpfire thrower being skitterleap'd into the flank of an enemy army or doom flayers into the rear/flank of an enemy. I dunno if in the next army book if it should be a signature spell and therefore used multiple times by more than one wizard but i feel the tactical benefit and possibility of a warpfire thrower is no different then say a warlock with a brass orb, death globe or doom rocket (with the doom rocket and brass orb usually being the scariest). I'm also unsure about it but i'll say that a model such as a weapon team doesn't count as moving after this.

So yeah this could be way too strong but i think it could present new tactical abilities/challenges with certain limits. Some might hate the idea but if it's just one skitteleap for probably one model per friendly magic phase i don't think people are as willing to complain. Note this is not a hellpit abomination or similar being teleported to your flank it's a weapon team. That said a warpfire thrower in an enemy army's flank just like the doom rocket has a high chance of hitting something

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The spell is clearly intended to get characters OUT of combat or away from danger. It's a 5+ cast and can't even be cast on Vermin Lords.

O&G has Hand of Gork that's clearly intended to get units into combat. But it's a 9+ and moves a whole unit and is their lvl 3.

It makes a lot of skaven sense as a signature spell the way it is. But if they had teleporters to move enemy heavy weapons up, they wouldn't need to dig.

   
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pontiac, michigan; usa

Actually people often use the tactic of getting a warlock teleported around the battlefield armed with a doom rocket, brass orb or death globe and all are fairly effective when they hit. If thrown into an enemy's flank some serious damage can be had from this.

Digging more helps entire units get around the field for flanking and it's infinitely more dangerous (somehow). Skitterleap is more accurate and happens faster but usually can only be used on individual models like characters. I don't see why a warpfire thrower couldn't just appear in an enemy army's flank and just blast fire into their whole flank. It would definitely make skitterleap more powerful and maybe increase the casting cost. I'm sure when the next skaven army book comes (probably a ways away) we'll get magic with stronger effects whether it's boosted range for casting skitterleap, more things being able to cast it or more things being effected by one cast of it. We'll have to see how it goes.

I'm betting a lot of the skaven wargear will be eliminated or at least changed. I'm sure the fellblade will get toned down and the future for the warlock gear, plague banner and storm banner seems uncertain at best. I'm fairly certain we'd keep the fellblade though considering it is basically a major weapon in their lore. I'm starting to go off topic though.

Anyway i always saw skitterleap as more of a utility spell. You know like a spell that is used to make other spells or shooting more effective like cracks call. It works with the hap-hazard often kooky and dangerous nature of skaven though maybe it should have more chance to backfire to bring that home. Then again if it fails there's basically some random character out in the middle of an enemy army soiling himself so there ya go. Not sure if a skaven character would willingly put themselves in danger though even if that might be to their advantage. Maybe some arrogant skaven but i'd imagine a warlock would be too cowardly. I wouldn't want to skitterleap a grey seer into danger though if i had the choice though skitterleap followed by cloud of corruption could be kind of fun to watch or skitterleap followed by a cracks call into enemy war machines.

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2013/02/18 11:40:45


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In the testing phase it didnt say it was just an IC that was moved, you used to be able to move a vermin lord or even a seer on a bell

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It's relatively unique in that you can move a hero from combat. On a 5+ signature spell I think you're asking a lot to make it that useful and offensive as the 9+ non-sig spell.

Saying it wasn't an IC in the past reinforces that it shouldn't be. Because it would indicate they specifically tested it and found it flawed. Which is a whole lot better than me saying it.

   
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I just find it odd that i kind teleport a weapon team for some nasty tricks. As if it's not a dangerous, kooky tactic that skaven would try.

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It is.

But skitterleap is a spell. Not technology.

   
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I really quite like Skitterleap as it is. Used well it can make it hard to trap the Skaven spellcaster in combat, and it works to help develop the unique Skaven game style.

I don't mind the idea of being able to move other units around the field, but honestly, if it ain't broke don't fix it.

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Being able to teleport a Warpfire Thrower into a any sort of position, even if it was a standard march away, and then let it shoot is pretty scary. Letting it get into the perfect position and do this is too much by far.
I've never had a gout of Warpfire that actually hit its target do anything less than net me well over the cost of the Team that shot it. The only reason we get a S5 flaming, magical D3 Wounds template weapon is because it's Move or Fire and has 1 Wound.
Skitterleaping a 'Thrower into the enemy's line and burning them up would not open any interesting tactical choices. It would open this one, and it isn't interesting. It's just the best option.

Now, if you were to ask me if Skitterleap should be able to teleport small units and then treat them as having moved in the Movement phase, perhaps as an option to Boost the spell (5+ single normal-sized model, 10+ unit up to 5 normal-sized models), or that the spell could effect even Vermin Lords and such, but that the movement was limited and random, I would say you might have something there.
But as-is, I like the spell.

 
   
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Calculating Commissar




pontiac, michigan; usa

Warpsolution wrote:
Being able to teleport a Warpfire Thrower into a any sort of position, even if it was a standard march away, and then let it shoot is pretty scary. Letting it get into the perfect position and do this is too much by far.
I've never had a gout of Warpfire that actually hit its target do anything less than net me well over the cost of the Team that shot it. The only reason we get a S5 flaming, magical D3 Wounds template weapon is because it's Move or Fire and has 1 Wound.
Skitterleaping a 'Thrower into the enemy's line and burning them up would not open any interesting tactical choices. It would open this one, and it isn't interesting. It's just the best option.

Now, if you were to ask me if Skitterleap should be able to teleport small units and then treat them as having moved in the Movement phase, perhaps as an option to Boost the spell (5+ single normal-sized model, 10+ unit up to 5 normal-sized models), or that the spell could effect even Vermin Lords and such, but that the movement was limited and random, I would say you might have something there.
But as-is, I like the spell.


Well if the warpfire thrower can't shoot i suppose that's ok. It's not like every single warpfire thrower gets to shoot and then hits for sure and usually enemies that are wise to them will try to snipe them out so they don't have to deal with them. Also if you see a big warpfire thrower or a couple doom flayers skitterleap'd to your rear or flank then the likelihood the enemy will shoot it, use magic missiles or similar or at least change position is pretty high. While it makes it incredibly powerful for warpfire throwers to have not counted as moving it also makes it very weak to count as moving for both warpfire throwers and doom flayers considering the doom flayers wouldn't be able to charge until the next turn either. However at the very least making this into multiple skitterleaps for either small units or several individual ones all at once would probably be pretty potent by itself. I figure being able to launch 3 weapons teams across the board per magic phase might even be too potent. Perhaps skitterleap could become a signature spell or at least for grey seers. They kind of don't have signature spells for skaven sadly unless they somehow count signature spells the spells warlocks, grey seers and plague priests are allowed to substitute for.

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Biloxi, MS USA

Tiarna Fuilteach wrote:
In the testing phase it didnt say it was just an IC that was moved, you used to be able to move a vermin lord or even a seer on a bell


It was also that way in 4th/5th. I used to Skitterleap Vermin Lords at whatever needed to die most all the time.

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pontiac, michigan; usa

 Platuan4th wrote:
Tiarna Fuilteach wrote:
In the testing phase it didnt say it was just an IC that was moved, you used to be able to move a vermin lord or even a seer on a bell


It was also that way in 4th/5th. I used to Skitterleap Vermin Lords at whatever needed to die most all the time.


Sadly these days vermin lords are a rare sight. Not because they are rare but because there are much better choices around. Also for a skaven themed daemon prince it's not as good as that last warriors of chaos daemon prince. I dunno it doesn't seem that good to me. Maybe it's because it's not really good at one specific thing so its cost goes way up for being decent at a lot of things.

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@flamingkillamajig: I said that, if a Warpfire Thrower shoots and hits, I've never had it do less than amazing.
If you could teleport your 'Thrower anywhere on the board, I'm pretty sure it wouldn't be too hard to get it where it can be out of range/line of sight of most threats while still posing a serious threat itself.
And while counting Skitterleap as moving for a Weapon Team might seem under-powered, I think that the other option is even more over-powered. Most importantly, Skitterleap has a lot of other uses.

Also, Doomflayers couldn't charge anyway. Movement phase, then Magic.

I don't think Skitterleap should ever be able to teleport several unrelated models at one casting. Maybe small units (Gutter Runners and Globadiers), but not a Ratling Gun, a Poisoned Wind Mortar, and a lone Assassin.

Maybe a Signature spell/Lore attribute would be a good idea. It'd be a little tricky for Skaven; two Lores should not equal two attributes (at least, not at the same time, for Seers and such).

And yeah, the V'Lord isn't a common sight. Mostly because he's a 500pt Lord that can't be your general. For his points, he's a solid monster. S6 I10 D3 Wound-attacks on top of a lvl4 Wizard is pretty efficient. But he's too all-over-the-place. Not tough enough, not fight-y enough.
The Exalted Vermin Lord is a much better monster, point-for-point. He's got a clear purpose. I kinda' hope they tone him down to make the "regular" one.

 
   
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pontiac, michigan; usa

Warpsolution wrote:
@flamingkillamajig: I said that, if a Warpfire Thrower shoots and hits, I've never had it do less than amazing.
If you could teleport your 'Thrower anywhere on the board, I'm pretty sure it wouldn't be too hard to get it where it can be out of range/line of sight of most threats while still posing a serious threat itself.
And while counting Skitterleap as moving for a Weapon Team might seem under-powered, I think that the other option is even more over-powered. Most importantly, Skitterleap has a lot of other uses.

Also, Doomflayers couldn't charge anyway. Movement phase, then Magic.

I don't think Skitterleap should ever be able to teleport several unrelated models at one casting. Maybe small units (Gutter Runners and Globadiers), but not a Ratling Gun, a Poisoned Wind Mortar, and a lone Assassin.

Maybe a Signature spell/Lore attribute would be a good idea. It'd be a little tricky for Skaven; two Lores should not equal two attributes (at least, not at the same time, for Seers and such).

And yeah, the V'Lord isn't a common sight. Mostly because he's a 500pt Lord that can't be your general. For his points, he's a solid monster. S6 I10 D3 Wound-attacks on top of a lvl4 Wizard is pretty efficient. But he's too all-over-the-place. Not tough enough, not fight-y enough.
The Exalted Vermin Lord is a much better monster, point-for-point. He's got a clear purpose. I kinda' hope they tone him down to make the "regular" one.


Meh i suppose that's fair. I dunno i just imagine it'd make a warpfire thrower nasty. Thing about warpfire throwers is that if you run them right they're good but for stuff that's heavily armored or high toughness and multiple wounds (above ogre level and possibly even above hellpit abomination level) it's not fantastic. Even against ogres it's decent but not great. It's good against trolls and crypt horrors or similar stuff but usually the firepower of the warp lightning cannons (if they can actually hit) tends to be more potent. That said hitting a rank-and-file unit with a warp lightning cannon isn't the easiest thing. I'm wondering if i should have more than 2 warp lightning cannons and 1 hellpit abomination in my 3k+ points lists but according to you guys my opponents would light me on fire in an alleyway somewhere.

Yeah i'm dumb. I forgot about that for some reason. You have to understand i generally don't play warhammer of any kind that much so i forgot about that. Couse now i feel dumb. Durrr .

Yeah i sort of expected that mostly because the idea of multiple weapons teams coming at somebody from multiple angles could hurt badly. Oddly enough i haven't thought about skitterleaping an assassin along. Really when you think about it skitterleap is the ultimate placement spell. I still think i should be able to cast it more than once per magic phase. It should at least have signature spell status for a grey seer just like grey seers can use the 13th spell.

Considering the 8th edition rulebook has the lore attribute of the lore of shadows allowing friendly casters to switch places with other characters or similar i don't think skitterleap is too bad and a lore attribute for either of the 2 skaven spell lores sounds fine to me. Possibly a plague cloud for the plague magic users and maybe for skaven spells of ruin we get like i dunno a chance at a debuffer for bordering enemy's initiative maybe though that'd probably make cracks call too potent if it could be cast (What's the spell type of cracks call and can it be cast in melee? I don't think i can but once again i don't play enough and read the rules enough. I'm guessing it actually can't hit melee that it's a part of though plague spells could.). A better choice is probably making spells of ruin have either a type of corrupting or similar feel to them but maybe that's also more skaven plague magic style. So maybe have their lore attribute allow for certain sneakiness to represent skaven underhandedness (possibly allowing a unit of skaven to move d6" in a different way or something as an example i dunno). I could totally see spells of ruin working like that considering skitterleap.

That's basically what i said. Also if you have a vermin lord and it's a level 4 spellcaster with some combat skills then the problem is it's going to cost a lot and probably won't be able to help itself enough. The biggest problem possibly being the fact there are no real lore of beasts type character buffing spells that he could learn. If i could charge into an enemy and then boost a vermin lord's toughness, strength or give him something better then i would totally do it but skaven buffs don't seem to effect him too well. Even worse he can't take any wargear whatsoever and can't be thrown around the board via skitterleap. Then there's the fact he's a large target with only a +5 ward save and most of his stats aren't too fantastic. If some jack-hole with a cannon saw him coming he'd be dead provided they didn't see more valuable targets to kill like a hellpit abomination. I dunno i suppose a vermin lord could be ok but i just don't see it doing enough esp. without a spell lore to improve its stats somehow. Also like the exalted vermin lord and considering it has initiative 10 it should probably have ASF. I mean h*ll it should probably have a better WS than dark elf assassins. I mean it's a freaking daemon prince basically vs a dark elf assassin and the dark elf assassin is both faster and more skills with weapons than it is.


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It would indeed make a Warpfire Thrower nasty. But that's the point. It's a 70pt unit that can lay down a S5 flame template. It's nasty enough. Unreliable as can be, but it's potential is staggering.
Against T5 or heavy armour, it's not as effective, sure. But those models cost more, so each casualty is going to mean more. What's more to the point, there are lots of other Skaven options for such targets; really, the Warpfire Thrower's ideal target--large units of average T and armour--is the most commonly fielded in 8th edition.

And for the record, taking 2 Cannons and 1 A-bomb in a 2000pt game might get you some dirty looks, though I'd imagine your opponent would be expecting as much. At higher point games, it's not nearly as big an issue.

Don't sweat the Doomflayer stuff. We all make those kinds of mistakes now and again. You're allowed.

As for Skitterleap, my thought that it should never effect multiple unrelated targets isn't based on game balance. It'd just be really complicated. I opt for a simpler mechanic.
And a Grey Seer can always choose either Skitterleap or the Curse, so, in theory, you could cast it more than once/phase.

I've been thinking about Lore attributes for Skaven. Swarms of rats (D6 S2 hits on enemies in B2B), lightning-stuff (like Heavens), lowered immune systems (like Fire), maybe some free movement or something Warpstone-related, like an ability to get more Power Dice (like Little Waaagh! or Death).
For the record, though, none of the Skaven spells have a type. So, by RaW, they don't have any of those restrictions. Generally speaking, though, I play them like I see 'em; Direct Damage, Augments, etc.

Vermin Lords should not be able to get any gear or that sort of thing. I also don't think it's really necessary for him to buff himself; Plague and Scorch and such should be able to achieve the same results, mostly.
The Exalted V'Lord costs an extra 275pts for +1S, +2T. +2W, +2A, +1Ld, ASF, D6 Wounds, a weird shooting attack (D6 S3 Quick to Fire and Poisoned), and he's Unbreakable and Unstable, like a true Daemon. Oh, and he has Loremaster for both Lores and the Dreaded 13th.

So, yeah. I'd say he's worthwhile. If the regular guy could have +1T and +1W, and then the rules for Daemons, I'd play him a lot more than I currently do. ASF would be even better, but not necessary. That's all I think he really needs to justify his points.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2013/02/26 16:42:20


 
   
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I'm just gonna go through the vermin lord bit for now (i hope as i get sidetracked into doing more than i wish often times).

I think i'd agree for some of the bits with the vermin lord with ASF at least. It would make sense to me. I dunno if he should have another wound or +1 toughness though it might be alright. Possibly it'd be good if he had loremaster. I mean i don't expect this guy to out-magic a slann as slann are freaking beast but it is a daemon prince that's a powerful wizard. They teach the grey seers spells in the lore (like the 13th spell). Vermin lords should probably have loremaster or something to represent better magic power. I expect either better magic or some better stats but most likely not both. I do however expect the vermin lord to have ASF. It also might be asking too much since he's just a rat version of a daemon prince but they mention the vermin lord effects nature around him in a way that corrupts it and makes it repulse at his existence or something. This might be alright to represent in-game. Considering there are debuffers on a ton of things even in the case of the hellpit abomination and war machines that shamble forth i figure a vermin lord with some debuffers or perhaps a sort of 'I looked him in the eye!' morale check debuffer would be alright (I think meeting a vermin lord's gaze was bad for some reason or other. Possibly some otherworldy power or utter horror from that or similar.).

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Of course Loremaster and all that other stuff would make him better. But the meaningful question is always: what's the bare minimum that needs to be done?
In this case, I think the answer would simply be: +1T and ASF (I thought W6 was the standard for Greater Daemons, but it looks like W5 is actually right). And I suppose I9. Can't have him being faster than a Keeper, after all.
But all the other stuff, while certainly making him better, isn't as essential to his being ready for the table.

And as is the case for any of proposed rules, it's never an issue of "would it fit?", but "would it fit this model and none of those that do not currently have this rule?". For example; meeting a Vermin Lord's gaze may seem like a bad idea, but I don't think it's a worse idea than meeting the gaze of, say, a Great Unclean One.

 
   
 
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