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Xzerios wrote:The Wounds are unsaved, no?

You cause four wounds on a one wound model. He saves the first one but fails the second. Two more unsaved wounds remain in the pool as the defending model is unable to save the rest, your additional wounds now carry to the assault result instead of being lost.

This is how I'm going to play it.

The whole point of considering the two models to be in B2B with only each other is to force wound allocation to kill off the challengee/challenger before it kills off anyone else. Mephiston challenges a Hekatrix in a unit of Wyches who accepts. Mephiston rolls his 6 attacks against the majority weapon skill of the engaged models (engaged in this case would be the Hekatrix plus all friendlies within 2"), hits with 6, rolls against the majority toughness of the engaged models, and wounds 6 times. Also, the entire Wych unit has the same saving throw so you can roll all 6 saves at once. Let's say she fails all 6. Keeping in mind how to allocate wounds in assault (pg.25 - which is the only way to allocate wounds) which says you start with the closest model and work your way out, the Hekatrix model is the first to die because of how wound allocation works. Wound allocation tells us to keep allocating unsaved wounds to the closest model until it dies. The Hekatrix only has 1 wound so that's easy. Then the next step is to allocate the next unsaved wound to the next closest model until it dies and so on. Ultimately, the 5 closest Wyches to Mephiston also die. In this example, it's possible for the Hekatrix to make all 6 saves thereby saving herself and all of the other Wyches.

You can't look at the challenge section of this book in isolation. You need the rest of the book to figure out what to do.

It's still pretty clear. It's like my kindergarten teacher said "Sometimes people can shove the square peg in the circle hole if they hit it hard enough with a hammer, but that still don't make it right."

And trust me when I tell you that if you keep hitting things with a hammer they will take you out of the fifth grade.

Gus,

I completely agree. Good summary.

Mr.Church13 wrote:It's still pretty clear. It's like my kindergarten teacher said "Sometimes people can shove the square peg in the circle hole if they hit it hard enough with a hammer, but that still don't make it right."

And trust me when I tell you that if you keep hitting things with a hammer they will take you out of the fifth grade.

I find it odd someone is willing to sit at the end of an 18 page thread and insist "it's pretty clear".

I think "it's pretty clear" the rules require normal wound allocation as gus wrote, but at this point I wouldn't insist it's clear and accuse people who disagree of contorting the rules to fit a position.

Those who think normal wound allocation apply have spent 18 pages providing (often reasonable) reasons why they believe so.
Those who think the challenge is an isolated combat with no effect on surrounding units have done the same.

A consensus has not been reached. It is not 'pretty simple'. And I'll continue to post as much until the thread is locked, dies or GW/INAT weighs in.
The last thing we should want is someone coming to a thread, reading the first and last couple pages and find a bunch of people declaring victory on an issue that reasonable people continue to disagree on.

@Marshal_Gus

But what happens if the 5 wyches have already completed normal assault combat and applied wounds to the unit that accompanies the character (not a single model IC)? In this instance (which is very likely), the character has a higher Init then the wyches and would normally attack before the wyches if not in a challenge.

jcress410 wrote:Gus,

I completely agree. Good summary.

Mr.Church13 wrote:It's still pretty clear. It's like my kindergarten teacher said "Sometimes people can shove the square peg in the circle hole if they hit it hard enough with a hammer, but that still don't make it right."

And trust me when I tell you that if you keep hitting things with a hammer they will take you out of the fifth grade.

I find it odd someone is willing to sit at the end of an 18 page thread and insist "it's pretty clear".

I think "it's pretty clear" the rules require normal wound allocation as gus wrote, but at this point I wouldn't insist it's clear and accuse people who disagree of contorting the rules to fit a position.

Those who think normal wound allocation apply have spent 18 pages providing (often reasonable) reasons why they believe so.
Those who think the challenge is an isolated combat with no effect on surrounding units have done the same.

A consensus has not been reached. It is not 'pretty simple'. And I'll continue to post as much until the thread is locked, dies or GW/INAT weighs in.
The last thing we should want is someone coming to a thread, reading the first and last couple pages and find a bunch of people declaring victory on an issue that reasonable people continue to disagree on.

Well of course people argue to fit their own agenda. If they all had the same interpretation the world would be a boring place. All I'm saying is that it's a simple matter that the same people wrote the fantasy brb and put in very specific language concerning wounds carrying into a unit. In the 40k brb they didn't mention it at all. Leads me to believe that it's a simple case of copy/paste if they wanted wounds to carry on.

I wanted to chime in that I made a call to GW support. I know that is about as useful as a fart in an AC duct but without re-hashing everything. It is discussed in this thread.

http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/463582.page

that thread has nothing to do with what we are talking about

terminalmonky wrote:I wanted to chime in that I made a call to GW support. I know that is about as useful as a fart in an AC duct but without re-hashing everything. It is discussed in this thread.

http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/463582.page

You have to be trolling...

Xzerios wrote:

CanisLupus518 wrote:
You actually are incorrect. As the Assault Result section says nothing about unallocated wounds, only unsaved wounds. This section tells you that even if a challenge participant doesnt die, any wounds caused inside the challenge count towards the overal assault result. There is nothing in this statement that directly addresses the issue of unalloacted wounds after one challege participant has died.

Also, I whleheartedly reject the idea that even when dead the model is still there, as this seems like stretching the word "only" quite a bit. There are no rules anywhere in any WH40k book that state that wounds are absorbed by a dead model that happens to be in BTB contact.

An unallocated wound is still an unsaved wound that remains in your pool. Reguardless of where you in this case 'can't' allocate it to. Following the rules for Challenges, your wounds may only be assigned to the challenged model. You may not assign your extra wounds else where, thats been established by the first sentence of Outside Forces on page 64.

A wound is not an unsaved wound until saves have been atempted and failed. If this were not the case, that would change everything we accept about other rules like FnP and Force Weapons. The first sentence in the Outside Forces section on Page 64 only establishes that models not participating in the challenge can not allocate wounds on models that are. It does not actually say the opposite.

CanisLupus518 wrote:

Xzerios wrote:

CanisLupus518 wrote:
You actually are incorrect. As the Assault Result section says nothing about unallocated wounds, only unsaved wounds. This section tells you that even if a challenge participant doesnt die, any wounds caused inside the challenge count towards the overal assault result. There is nothing in this statement that directly addresses the issue of unalloacted wounds after one challege participant has died.

Also, I whleheartedly reject the idea that even when dead the model is still there, as this seems like stretching the word "only" quite a bit. There are no rules anywhere in any WH40k book that state that wounds are absorbed by a dead model that happens to be in BTB contact.

An unallocated wound is still an unsaved wound that remains in your pool. Reguardless of where you in this case 'can't' allocate it to. Following the rules for Challenges, your wounds may only be assigned to the challenged model. You may not assign your extra wounds else where, thats been established by the first sentence of Outside Forces on page 64.

A wound is not an unsaved wound until saves have been atempted and failed. If this were not the case, that would change everything we accept about other rules like FnP and Force Weapons. The first sentence in the Outside Forces section on Page 64 only establishes that models not participating in the challenge can not allocate wounds on models that are. It does not actually say the opposite.

Kinda does. If you resolve (that's 40k for finish) the wound allocation process, that means you march from I10 wound 1 to I1 wound 35. If you are instructed to do this ignoring the characters, there is no oppurtunity for those challenge wounds to allocate in. That is why things like "forging the narrative" and the turn summary on 429 work. You CAN have the Challenge run along side the unit combat, or you can do it seperate. Because there is no allowance for wounds to cross (other than morale effects, which we are specifically told to combine).

Look we've got two ways of reading rules.

One way, we have to redefine and split hairs on the word "only" (which sadly, I brought into this thread on page 6, sorry all), we have to claim that forging the narrative was written by the summer intern and isn't done correctly, and we have to attack the turn summary in the back of the book as being a drug trip that was typed out.

Because....

If we read it the other way, everything means what it says, all the rules from page 25 to 429 work as written. What gets me, is that to argue RAW (you know what that stands for overflow guys?) for overflow, you have to argue that two parts of the rulebook don't apply... as written. And then you need to attack the arguement that says to simply read and follow all rules, wait for it... as written.

I'm curious, if overflow were to exist, what would be the point of challenges? With pile in at initiative, its pretty easy to move a character after another character without a challenge. And if challenges aren't seperate and insulated (as ruled on already by the first major GT FAQ), why would they even exist?

CanisLupus518 wrote:

Xzerios wrote:

CanisLupus518 wrote:
You actually are incorrect. As the Assault Result section says nothing about unallocated wounds, only unsaved wounds. This section tells you that even if a challenge participant doesnt die, any wounds caused inside the challenge count towards the overal assault result. There is nothing in this statement that directly addresses the issue of unalloacted wounds after one challege participant has died.

Also, I whleheartedly reject the idea that even when dead the model is still there, as this seems like stretching the word "only" quite a bit. There are no rules anywhere in any WH40k book that state that wounds are absorbed by a dead model that happens to be in BTB contact.

An unallocated wound is still an unsaved wound that remains in your pool. Reguardless of where you in this case 'can't' allocate it to. Following the rules for Challenges, your wounds may only be assigned to the challenged model. You may not assign your extra wounds else where, thats been established by the first sentence of Outside Forces on page 64.

A wound is not an unsaved wound until saves have been atempted and failed. If this were not the case, that would change everything we accept about other rules like FnP and Force Weapons. The first sentence in the Outside Forces section on Page 64 only establishes that models not participating in the challenge can not allocate wounds on models that are. It does not actually say the opposite.

If you can't allocate wounds from them how do you allocate wounds to them? Why is it that the character is protected from being hurt but the squad is not? Why do you refuse to accept that excess wounds from the winner of a challenge can't just be thrown away but you are more than willing to accept that excess wounds caused by the rest of the squad disappear into thin air?

Captain Antivas wrote:Why do you refuse to accept that excess wounds from the winner of a challenge can't just be thrown away but you are more than willing to accept that excess wounds caused by the rest of the squad disappear into thin air?

Because the rules specifically state that they can not be allocated inside the challenge. Black and white.

Greg_Hager wrote:

Captain Antivas wrote:Why do you refuse to accept that excess wounds from the winner of a challenge can't just be thrown away but you are more than willing to accept that excess wounds caused by the rest of the squad disappear into thin air?

Because the rules specifically state that they can not be allocated inside the challenge. Black and white.

And the mechanism by which the rules specifically prevent striking outside a challenge has been posted dozens of times in this very thread. White and black.

If this was 18 pages of back and forth to find an answer, that'd be fine. But these are the same three posts over and over.

Give it up. It isn't clear.

At this point I'm worried that people will do the following.

Doc give FNP to the squad. Boss is in a challenge. Because the squad fights as if the Boss isn't there, then he doesn't get the FNP from the Doc.

May already have been answered so sorry if I bring it up again but I dont have the time to read 18 pages.

Do the model that issues the challenge (after the charge) also get a charge bonus attack?

Excet he is still a member of the unit, meaning he still gets the benefits.

nosferatu1001 wrote:Excet he is still a member of the unit, meaning he still gets the benefits.

I think we can all agree on this. Our position is that wound allocation is done "as if" the challengers were not there. They are still there, just treated like they are not.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Greg_Hager wrote:

Captain Antivas wrote:Why do you refuse to accept that excess wounds from the winner of a challenge can't just be thrown away but you are more than willing to accept that excess wounds caused by the rest of the squad disappear into thin air?

Because the rules specifically state that they can not be allocated inside the challenge. Black and white.

This is hopeless then. You are ignoring the parts of the argument you don't like to make a point. If wounds cannot be allocated from the rest of the squad they cannot be allocated to the rest of the squad. This duality of rules is ridiculous and if you think that makes sense then we have bigger problems.

Antivas, unfortunately there just isn't a piece of text explicitly saying the wounds can't be allocated to the squad.
(taking aside for the moment the b2b argument, which I think we can agree doesn't, on it own, explicitly solve the issue)

I guess the way I'm reading it, wounds generated from the challenge have a certain set of models they can be legally allocated to,
wounds generated outside the challenge have a different set of models they can be legally allocated to,

so it seems like there's two "wound pools" to resolve.

That seems like the case even if we disagree about where the challenge pool can be allocated, right?

I didnt see where anyone brought this up but did anyone read the part were is says excess wounds still count for combat resolution? to me that implies something along this line.

abaddon vs banshee exarch, terms vs banshees. abaddon causes 7 unsaved wounds (ex) on exarch terminators kill 1 banshee. Banshees in return kill two terms. net result banshee squad lost 1 banshee and the exarch. while terminator squad lost two terminators. But terminators won 8-2 meaning banshees take test -6.

Interesting debate so far. A bit heated, but that is how you know it is good! A few bent tenants, but the mods have been kind to us. Some thoughts...

Forging a Narrative Warhammer 40,000 Rule Book, page 65
Though the characters in a challenge strike during their normal Initiative steps, many players like to resolve the crucial battle after all the models have struck their blows - challenges are dramatic encounters and the participants deserve their moment of glory.

I saw this being used as an argument that the Challenge is a wholly separate event. This argument is wrong. The first part of the sentence clearly states that Characters in a Challenge strike during their normal Initiative steps. It, like all other "Forging a Narrative" bits, is simply a fluff piece to make the game seem more dramatic. You could just as easily just use different colored dice and roll with the rest of the Initiative steps.

It is not a description of a game mechanic.

Fighting A Challenge Warhammer 40,000 Rule Book, page 64
- If a Challenge has been accepted, it is time to move the two combatants into base contact with each other.
- Note that these moves cannot be used to move a character out of unit coherency.
- If possible, swap the Challenger for a friendly model in base contact with the Challengee. If this cannot be done, swap the Challengee for a friendly model in base contact with the Challenger.
- If neither of these moves would result in the two models being in base contact, 'swap' the Challenger to as close as possible for the Challengee and assume the two to be in base contact for the purposes of the ensuing fight.
- Models that are moved to satisfy a Challenge are not subject to Difficult or Dangerous Terrain tests.
- Wounds allocated to a character in a Challenge cannot be reallocated by the Look Out, Sir rule.
- For the duration of the Challenge, these two models are considered to be in base contact only with each other.

So moving Challengers/Challengees is complicated, and would have an important affect on Wound Allocation if things spill over. It may even be possible for a skillful General to position his models appropriately to game the system- if Wounds spill over.

The pieces immediately relevant to this topic are the last two points. Look Out, Sir cannot be used to take wounds off a Challenger/Challengee and, most importantly, only the two models in the Challenge are considered to be in base contact. Even if your Character is in base contact with a half dozen other models, you only consider the enemy Character as in base contact.

Outside Forces Warhammer 40,000 Rule Book, page 64
- Whilst the Challenge is ongoing, only the Challenger and Challengee can strike blows against one another.
- Wounds from other attackers cannot be allocated against either Character.
- Simply resolve the Wound Allocation step as if the two Characters were not there.

As was pointed out straight away in this thread, this first point only limits models outside of the Challenge. It does not limit the models in the Challenge in any way. Likewise, the second and third points put limits on the models outside of the Challenge.

RAW, this is the case. I don't see how this part can be honestly debated as meaning anything else, this is just plain English. If you are having trouble understanding this part I recommend checking out this website. It is the same concept. I do not mean to be insulting or condescending so I hope no one takes it that way! Understanding the concepts found at that linked website is fundamental to being able to argue on things like this.

Combatant Slain Warhammer 40,000 Rule Book, page 64
- When one of the combatants in a Challenge is slain, regardless of which Initiative step it is, the Challenge is still considered to be ongoing until the end of the phase.

Yet again, this only limits models outside of the Challenge. The slayer would have already made his attacks, so this part can only serve as protection to keep hidden Power Fists from splatting him after he was victorious.

Assault Result Warhammer 40,000 Rule Book, page 65
- Unsaved Wounds caused in a Challenge count towards the assault result, alongside any unsaved Wounds caused by the rest of the Character's units.

This unfortunately doesn't really tell us anything one way or the other. By itself, it just means all unsaved Wounds count for combat resolution. It doesn't tell us anything about allocated Wounds.

Allocating Wounds Warhammer 40,000 Rule Book, page 25
- After determining the number of Wounds inflicted against a unit at a particular Initiative Step, Wounds are allocated, Saves taken and Casualties removed.
- Wounds are allocated and resolved starting with the closest model, just like in the Shooting phase.
- However, as you'll often have many models in base contact with the enemy, there will be many models tied for the privilege of dying first.
- A Wound must be allocated to an enemy model in base contact with a model attacking at the Initiative step.
- If there is more than one eligible candidate, the player controlling the models being attacked chooses which model it is allocated to.
- Roll the model's saving throw (if it has one) and remove the casualty (if necessary).
- If there are no enemy models in base contact with a model attacking at that Initiative step, the Wound is allocated to the next closest enemy model.
- If several enemy models are the same distance away, then their controlling player chooses which is allocated the Wound, as above.
- Once a model has a Wound allocated to it, you must continue to allocate Wounds to it until it is either removed as a casualty or the Wound pool is empty.
- Note that it is possible for all of the models in the target unit to be hit, wounded, and killed, including those that are not engaged.

And here is what says wounds overflow from a Challenge. Challenges are fought using the normal Wound Allocation rules, unless someone can find a rule stating otherwise. Permissive rule set and all that, we'd have to have a rule stating we don't use the normal Wound Allocation rules to prevent overflow.

Why?

Point 7 above, coupled with Point 7 from "Fighting a Challenge". The models in the Challenge are only in base contact with one another. If one of the combatants is slain, and there are wounds left over that have not been allocated, then by the very rules for Wound Allocation you must start allocating wounds to the next nearest models. This is a permissive rule set, you can't just opt to not follow the rules!

Precision Strikes Warhammer 40,000 Rule Book, page 63
Wounds from Precision Strikes are allocated against an engaged model (or models) of your choice in the unit he is attacking rather than following the normal rules for Wound Allocation. If a Precision Strike Wound is allocated to a character they can still make their Look out, Sir roll.

It gets even better with Precision Strikes! If you get a Precision Strike you can allocate the wound where you want, ignoring the normal rules for Wound Allocation. Personally I think this bit is a little excessive, though I suppose if you have a Character that can ignore the Character you are challenging its only fitting.


In my opinion, the rules are fairly clear. Unless GW makes a FAQ update that says otherwise, the way they wrote the rules makes it so you have to spill wounds over out of the Challenge. You can't just choose not to allocate wounds according to the rules.

The Challenges mechanic seems to be a way to force Characters to have to wound each other first and for you to protect your Characters from getting swarmed over while an enemy Character destroys your entire squad. Your Character(s) still get all the benefits they normally would, with the added benefit of survivability and being able to focus his attacks where they are most needed. This actually balances the game quite a bit surprisingly, I didn't think it would at first. I thought they added it for the Rule of Cool affect.

I really think the placement of your Character model for some armies will be vitally important to take full advantage of the rules with Challenges. Being able to position your Character near more enemy models will help you limit the number of attacks coming at you and allow you to spill over wounds to more models (if the enemy Character didn't save like a madman anyways!). It really will add to the game as it will take a skillful General to be able to take advantage of it.

Also, the rules don't seem to say anywhere that the combatants in a Challenge are no longer part of the unit(s) involved in the combat. So anything that affects the unit as a whole would still affect the Characters. Note, there would be some exceptions to Independent Characters in some cases (Independent Characters - Special Rules from on Page 39 of the Warhammer 40,000 Rule Book) but nothing says they are treated as separate units. That was 5th edition and no longer applies.

Yeah but here's the thing. The two challengers aren't close enough to allocate to anyone nearby as they are in BtB with only each other until the end of the phase even if one is dead. Outside forces say the characters count as not there and all challenge rules are in effect till the phase is over that means nobody is there but them.

Mr.Church13 wrote:Yeah but here's the thing. The two challengers aren't close enough to allocate to anyone nearby as they are in BtB with only each other until the end of the phase even if one is dead.

No, they aren't.

Outside forces say the characters count as not there and all challenge rules are in effect till the phase is over that means nobody is there but them.

clearly applies only to the 'outside forces' allocation.

Church, no offense intended, but if you continue to repost the same arguments without answering any of the prior objections raised, I'm just going to continue to post 'nuh-uh'

@cowmonaut

Well thank you for telling what we need to read to understand challenges.

I recommend page 429, how does that fit into challenges?

We also do not have permission do anything other than count those extra wounds for morale purposes (which they wouldn't need to tell us if this was normal wound allocation, as that is already is part of the process). Why the redudant directions, unless there was a need? We are given permission to bring them in, because we need the permission. We are not given permission to allocate wounds in, and therefore cannot.

I might also wonder how majority toughness should affect challenges if they are all together now.

What is so silly, is that challenges have no point if you think overflow should exist.

The rules for combat would just be "move characters into base to base when possible. all wounds from a character must be allocated to the other character first, Wounds cannot be allocated to a character from a unit in a phase in which he was in base to base with another character"

Challenges, as you, want it, only protected characters from units, which is kinda wierd.

With or without overflow, challenges make it impossible to hide all the characters at the back of the squad.

Majority toughness is a good question. Should a character in a challenge roll against the other character's toughness or the majority in the unit?

Your wounds may not spill over:

Pg 65 BRB wrote:
Combatant Slain
When one of the combatants in a challenge is slain, regardless of which Initiative step it is, the challenge is still considered to be ongoing until the end of the phase.

Ok, pretty cut and dry here.

Pg 65 BRB wrote:
Outside Forces
Whilst the challenge is ongoing, only the challenger and challengee can strike blows against one another.[/b]

I have underlined the important pieces here. Only is inclusive. You may only do *this*. *This* is attack the challenger.
The next underlined bit is blows, Blows = wounds caused by the characters in the challenge, be them saved, or unsaved it matters not. All your wounds causes must go to the challenger.

Refering back to the combats slain section mentioned above mandates that the challenge is still ongoing until the end of combat. As this has been established, you -may not- allocate wounds to other models outside the challenge from models involved within the challenge. To cover this, I refer back to Basic vs Advanced on Pg 7;

Pg 7 BRB wrote:Basic versus Advanced
Basic rules apply to all the models in the game, unless specifically stated otherwise. They include the rules for movement, shooting and close combat as well as the rules for morale, found between pages 10 and 31. These are all the rules you'll need for your average Infantry model.

The rules for challenges are an advanced portion of the standard CC rules, as they have their own rules defined on pages 64-65. As such, the normal rules for wound allocation do not apply to the challenge section.

For those that wish to know what happens with your unsaved wounds, you may only allocate them to the challenger. As they are dead, they are unable to save these wounds. Your unsaved wounds caused at the end of combat count towards the assault result. Thusly increasing your odds for a failed morale check and sweeping advance.

Ok well whatever man.

Lobukia wrote:@cowmonaut

Well thank you for telling what we need to read to understand challenges.

I recommend page 429, how does that fit into challenges?

We also do not have permission do anything other than count those extra wounds for morale purposes (which they wouldn't need to tell us if this was normal wound allocation, as that is already is part of the process). Why the redudant directions, unless there was a need? We are given permission to bring them in, because we need the permission. We are not given permission to allocate wounds in, and therefore cannot.

I might also wonder how majority toughness should affect challenges if they are all together now.

What is so silly, is that challenges have no point if you think overflow should exist.

The rules for combat would just be "move characters into base to base when possible. all wounds from a character must be allocated to the other character first, Wounds cannot be allocated to a character from a unit in a phase in which he was in base to base with another character"

Challenges, as you, want it, only protected characters from units, which is kinda wierd.

Were do you see extra wounds are counted? I was under the assumption there is no overkill in challenges, if you do extra wounds beyond what is needed to kill the challenger they are just lost.

Here, Ill concede some ground on the notion that it does not say "allocate wounds" in the Outside forces section. But I do have to ask, what is a 'blow' then if not a wound?

Good discussion all around in here though.

Were do you see extra wounds are counted? I was under the assumption there is no overkill in challenges, if you do extra wounds beyond what is needed to kill the challenger they are just lost.

Show me where it says I have to not allocate the unsaved wounds to the challenger. :3