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Ok before the storm, I understand that a call to GW support is in no way gospel, but I just wanted to pass the info along.

I asked two questions concerning the use successful markerlight hits on a flyer to raise the BS of a friendly unit when firing on that flyer. According to their interpretation of the rules, the BS of a CAN be used to raise the BS above 1 with a max of 5 when forced to make a snap shot on a marked flyer.

Also the Target Lock wargear is completely negated on both the infantry / crisis suit armory and the vehicle armory.

These were not just off the top of the head answers. They discussed it for several minutes on both questions and I could hear several voices mentioning Tau.

I would be interested in seeing how they responded it others called. The number is 1-800-394-4263.

A call to GW support is in no way gospel! It should never be trusted!

--

Now that that's out of the way, this actually makes sense fluffwise; i.e. the marker-man has proven that he can keep the plane marked (he hits on 6's), and weapons fire / armor-integral targeters can now home in on the flier better.

terminalmonky wrote:Ok before the storm, I understand that a call to GW support is in no way gospel, but I just wanted to pass the info along.

I asked two questions concerning the use successful markerlight hits on a flyer to raise the BS of a friendly unit when firing on that flyer. According to their interpretation of the rules, the BS of a CAN be used to raise the BS above 1 with a max of 5 when forced to make a snap shot on a marked flyer.

Also the Target Lock wargear is completely negated on both the infantry / crisis suit armory and the vehicle armory.

These were not just off the top of the head answers. They discussed it for several minutes on both questions and I could hear several voices mentioning Tau.

I would be interested in seeing how they responded it others called. The number is 1-800-394-4263.

Well the Errata/FAQ does not agree with them concerning Target Locks on Vehicles.

A Target Lock on a vehicle operates differently to an Infantry/Battlesuit Target Lock and is therefore a different piece of wargear. The FAQ only changed the Infantry/Battlesuit version.

A Town Called Malus wrote:

terminalmonky wrote:Ok before the storm, I understand that a call to GW support is in no way gospel, but I just wanted to pass the info along.

I asked two questions concerning the use successful markerlight hits on a flyer to raise the BS of a friendly unit when firing on that flyer. According to their interpretation of the rules, the BS of a CAN be used to raise the BS above 1 with a max of 5 when forced to make a snap shot on a marked flyer.

Also the Target Lock wargear is completely negated on both the infantry / crisis suit armory and the vehicle armory.

These were not just off the top of the head answers. They discussed it for several minutes on both questions and I could hear several voices mentioning Tau.

I would be interested in seeing how they responded it others called. The number is 1-800-394-4263.

Well the Errata/FAQ does not agree with them concerning Target Locks on Vehicles.

A Target Lock on a vehicle operates differently to an Infantry/Battlesuit Target Lock and is therefore a different piece of wargear. The FAQ only changed the Infantry/Battlesuit version.

Agreed and that was part of my question. but they said since the Infantry Armory listing was on page 28 before the Vehicle armory then further references were ignored because it was effectively removed from the book.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Unit1126PLL wrote:A call to GW support is in no way gospel! It should never be trusted!

--

Now that that's out of the way, this actually makes sense fluffwise; i.e. the marker-man has proven that he can keep the plane marked (he hits on 6's), and weapons fire / armor-integral targeters can now home in on the flier better.

I agree about the weight of their opinion. Hence the disclaimer at the beginning.

It also agrees with fluff with the skyray that carries markerlights being able to "light up" a flyer and then swat it out of the sky.

terminalmonky wrote:

A Town Called Malus wrote:

terminalmonky wrote:Ok before the storm, I understand that a call to GW support is in no way gospel, but I just wanted to pass the info along.

I asked two questions concerning the use successful markerlight hits on a flyer to raise the BS of a friendly unit when firing on that flyer. According to their interpretation of the rules, the BS of a CAN be used to raise the BS above 1 with a max of 5 when forced to make a snap shot on a marked flyer.

Also the Target Lock wargear is completely negated on both the infantry / crisis suit armory and the vehicle armory.

These were not just off the top of the head answers. They discussed it for several minutes on both questions and I could hear several voices mentioning Tau.

I would be interested in seeing how they responded it others called. The number is 1-800-394-4263.

Well the Errata/FAQ does not agree with them concerning Target Locks on Vehicles.

A Target Lock on a vehicle operates differently to an Infantry/Battlesuit Target Lock and is therefore a different piece of wargear. The FAQ only changed the Infantry/Battlesuit version.

Agreed and that was part of my question. but they said since the Infantry Armory listing was on page 28 before the Vehicle armory then further references were ignored because it was effectively removed from the book.

With that logic they wouldn't have needed to change the Blacksun Filter in both armouries. They did change both however and that was an upgrade which was identical in how it worked in both armoury entries it had.

A Town Called Malus wrote:

With that logic they wouldn't have needed to change the Blacksun Filter in both armouries. They did change both however and that was an upgrade which was identical in how it worked in both armoury entries it had.

But the Blacksun Filter was not removed. It was updated. I agree it is thin logic and none of this holds water in any but a localized gaming discussion. I just wanted to pass info along.

And make the request for a few people to call and ask the same questions. To see if there is any pattern possibly.

terminalmonky wrote:

A Town Called Malus wrote:

With that logic they wouldn't have needed to change the Blacksun Filter in both armouries. They did change both however and that was an upgrade which was identical in how it worked in both armoury entries it had.

But the Blacksun Filter was not removed. It was updated. I agree it is thin logic and none of this holds water in any but a localized gaming discussion. I just wanted to pass info along.

And make the request for a few people to call and ask the same questions. To see if there is any pattern possibly.

Oh yeah, I get that. Technically they didn't remove the Target Lock though, just made it useless like the poor old Command and Control Node. You can still buy it for your suits if you feel like spending ten points on nothing.

Until it gets FAQ'd again I don't think we'll have a definitive answer and I'll continue running Target Locks on my Tank. If Space Magic allows a Space Marine Land Raider to split fire with a weapon then Advanced Technology should do the same for a Tau Hammerhead.

terminalmonky wrote:It also agrees with fluff with the skyray that carries markerlights being able to "light up" a flyer and then swat it out of the sky.

Not really, they can already fire their missiles at BS5 using a markerlight hit, they don't need to have the BS increasing effect to suit that fluff.

Drunkspleen wrote:

terminalmonky wrote:It also agrees with fluff with the skyray that carries markerlights being able to "light up" a flyer and then swat it out of the sky.

Not really, they can already fire their missiles at BS5 using a markerlight hit, they don't need to have the BS increasing effect to suit that fluff.

Yeah. That was a bad analogy. But you get the idea.
I understand and agree with the BS5 that was in the FAQ. I didn't want to bring that up again.

So now we should get rules advice from a bunch of high school drop outs whose best lot in life is answering the phone to talk to gamers....

tgf wrote:So now we should get rules advice from a bunch of high school drop outs whose best lot in life is answering the phone to talk to gamers....

Don't hold back. Tell us how you really feel. LOL. Wasn't trying to start a flame war or a bash session of the GW support staff. I was hoping to get a few more people to call and report back what they were told. But we will see.

Call the rules boys 5 times with the same question, you will receive 5 different answers. I did this with the Hexrifle and FnP. I trust these guys as far as I can throw myself. Not trying to be mean or anything, but they do not really help anything.

megatrons2nd wrote:Call the rules boys 5 times with the same question, you will receive 5 different answers. I did this with the Hexrifle and FnP. I trust these guys as far as I can throw myself. Not trying to be mean or anything, but they do not really help anything.

I also have an email into the official FAQ guys but I've heard hearing back from them is a near impossibility.

Page 2 of the Rule Book

Multiple Modifiers are applied in a set order. First apply multipliers, then apply additions or subtractions, and finally apply any set values.

That being the case, marker light BS increase applies BEFORE the set modifier of BS1 for snap shots at fliers.

terminalmonky,

I've called 'em in the past. Got two different (opposite) answers on a fun item called Skimmers vs AP1 (4e).

Not gonna call 'em now. Besides, doesn't 394-4263 spell TZE-ENTCH?


This would be my YMDC:
MLs need a 6 to 'mark' a Flyer. After that, apply the Codex's ML rules (not the Mulitple Modifiers rules, Codex>Rb).

So, PFs get say, 2 lucky s. Now the railguns shooting it can slice off a Cover Save point (Jink) and/or just increase their BS, as per ML rules.

Markerlights shoot per normal rules against fliers.

Then any hits can be used as described.

Since you multiply, add, subtract and then apply set values, you can't adjust the BS for hitting a flier, but you can fire missiles, remove the fliers cover, put penalties on any subsequent pinning tests, ect.

Scoffer wrote:
Page 2 of the Rule Book

Multiple Modifiers are applied in a set order. First apply multipliers, then apply additions or subtractions, and finally apply any set values.

That being the case, marker light BS increase applies BEFORE the set modifier of BS1 for snap shots at fliers.

I would argue otherwise. Firing the smart missile is "This shooting is resolved normally in all regards at an assumed Ballistic Skill 5" which is much more definitive than "Counts as BS1". Take in the fact that the rule is not worded like +2 Initiative or -2 Ws etc. there for it is neither an addition or substraction. I would argue that it is a set value like snapfiring is. Because Codex trumps rulebook that missile will fire at BS5. The markerlight will hit on 6s.

Neroman wrote:

Scoffer wrote:
Page 2 of the Rule Book

Multiple Modifiers are applied in a set order. First apply multipliers, then apply additions or subtractions, and finally apply any set values.

That being the case, marker light BS increase applies BEFORE the set modifier of BS1 for snap shots at fliers.

I would argue otherwise. Firing the smart missile is "This shooting is resolved normally in all regards at an assumed Ballistic Skill 5" which is much more definitive than "Counts as BS1". Take in the fact that the rule is not worded like +2 Initiative or -2 Ws etc. there for it is neither an addition or substraction. I would argue that it is a set value like snapfiring is. Because Codex trumps rulebook that missile will fire at BS5. The markerlight will hit on 6s.

Also it was in the FAQ... so... yea....

The way i see it......

Snap fire says it "counts as BS1" meaning its not a "set value of 1." the BRB clearly shows what an example of a set rate is when you look at this section. therefore i say that the rule for applying multiplies goes, 1) reduce normal BS to 1 as it is skyfiring and therefore bs now counts as one. +1 to markerlight that magically hit on 6's. BS2 or better depending on lights out there. therefore something that modifies your BS AFTER your bs counts as 1(so targeting array still gets lowered to BS1) like a markerlight token being used should apply as normal.

anyone with me on this?

the way i see it. it snap fire with markerlights and they hit(paint) the flyer. then a unit can increase it's BS to hit the target. so while that unit need's 6's to hit they use X markerlight hits to increase their BS. simple if you ask me.

I don't think Markerlights can be used to up the BS of anything in relation to flyers unless the 2nd firing unit has the Skyfire or similar rule, which as far as I can see in the BRB no Tau weapons have.

Otherwise the markerlights are shot at BS 1, you can spend the markerlight on doing whatever, but the next unit fires at BS 1. You just waste the markerlight on a target which is untouchable.

Wolfnid420 wrote:The way i see it......

Snap fire says it "counts as BS1" meaning its not a "set value of 1." the BRB clearly shows what an example of a set rate is when you look at this section. therefore i say that the rule for applying multiplies goes, 1) reduce normal BS to 1 as it is skyfiring and therefore bs now counts as one. +1 to markerlight that magically hit on 6's. BS2 or better depending on lights out there. therefore something that modifies your BS AFTER your bs counts as 1(so targeting array still gets lowered to BS1) like a markerlight token being used should apply as normal.

anyone with me on this?

No, that's just trying to twist the words to advantage. Shooting at fliers without skyfire is BS1 until RAW says otherwise.

To me it just seems completely ridiculous that something that you point at other things, to make it easier to shoot at with other things, wouldnt still work on something just because its higher up in the air. I get RAW but to me markerlights working should be a no brainer RAI

Wolfnid, that doesn't follow. Hitting once with a bullet is a single instant in time, and is entirely possible with good luck.

Tracking a zooming, strafing flyer under battle conditions (smoke, etc) with a laser long enough for someone else's targeting computer to lock on, and for them to get a clear shot and fire, is ridiculous IMO.

Hell, go out to the highway and try to keep a laser-pointer pointed at some car's doors or something. That by itself is ridiculously hard.

Unit1126PLL wrote:Wolfnid, that doesn't follow. Hitting once with a bullet is a single instant in time, and is entirely possible with good luck.

Tracking a zooming, strafing flyer under battle conditions (smoke, etc) with a laser long enough for someone else's targeting computer to lock on, and for them to get a clear shot and fire, is ridiculous IMO.

Hell, go out to the highway and try to keep a laser-pointer pointed at some car's doors or something. That by itself is ridiculously hard.

And yet a trained operator of a laser guided missile system (like Starstreak) is capable of doing so.

A Town Called Malus wrote:

Unit1126PLL wrote:Wolfnid, that doesn't follow. Hitting once with a bullet is a single instant in time, and is entirely possible with good luck.

Tracking a zooming, strafing flyer under battle conditions (smoke, etc) with a laser long enough for someone else's targeting computer to lock on, and for them to get a clear shot and fire, is ridiculous IMO.

Hell, go out to the highway and try to keep a laser-pointer pointed at some car's doors or something. That by itself is ridiculously hard.

And yet a trained operator computer-operated targeting system of a laser guided missile system (like Starstreak) is capable of doing so.

FTFY

All the operator has to do is point an optical sight at the target.

Unit1126PLL wrote:

A Town Called Malus wrote:

Unit1126PLL wrote:Wolfnid, that doesn't follow. Hitting once with a bullet is a single instant in time, and is entirely possible with good luck.

Tracking a zooming, strafing flyer under battle conditions (smoke, etc) with a laser long enough for someone else's targeting computer to lock on, and for them to get a clear shot and fire, is ridiculous IMO.

Hell, go out to the highway and try to keep a laser-pointer pointed at some car's doors or something. That by itself is ridiculously hard.

And yet a trained operator computer-operated targeting system of a laser guided missile system (like Starstreak) is capable of doing so.

FTFY

All the operator has to do is point an optical sight at the target.

Actually, no. The operator of the system has to keep the target painted until the missile connects.

The training level of the operator is critical since, unlike infrared guided missiles, the operator has to track the target exactly with the sighting unit aimpoint (SACLOS). If the aircraft detects the targeting laser, it has the whole period of the missile flight time to engage in avoidance maneuvers, which adds additional challenge to the missile operator's target-tracking task.

So it is exactly like a markerlight.

Also, the difficulty in tracking the zooming flyer has already been accounted for in getting the 6 to hit with the markerlight, seeing as markerlight tokens last for the rest of the shooting phase or until used.

I'm sorry guys but why are we still arguing this?

You shoot markerlights at flier, needing 6's to hit (derp laser pointers)

You then take, lets say, a team of three broadsides and shoot at the flier, you attempt to add +2 to hit with two markerlight hits from before.

Therefore, you go BS 3 +2 to BS 5, but then apply set value to 1.

Set values are always last, after all other operations.

Wolfnid420 wrote:To me it just seems completely ridiculous that something that you point at other things, to make it easier to shoot at with other things, wouldnt still work on something just because its higher up in the air. I get RAW but to me markerlights working should be a no brainer RAI

Go outside and try to keep a laser designator on a jet fighter.

Ultimately, it's fairly clear cut - Snapshot is a set value, set values are applied last.
Markerlight tokens don't work on it.

Ovion wrote:Go outside and try to keep a laser designator on a jet fighter.

For more fun, find a flying monster. Then when you get the laser locked on to it, it will crash to the ground.


Stupid Grounding test wording...