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The tzench daemons usualy have 9 in leadership and they get +3 to mannifest. Do they get to mannifest at 12?

Are you referring to casting their psyker power? If so I think the bad you can modify is to 10.

Well that is what I am wondering. If the rules can take them above 10 and up to 12? I think it would seem like it. I don't know if there are any tzench manifesters with a leadership of 7?

 Niiai wrote:
Well that is what I am wondering. If the rules can take them above 10 and up to 12? I think it would seem like it. I don't know if there are any tzench manifesters with a leadership of 7?

With the exception of Wounds, Attacks, and AV; all stats cap out at 10. If you are Ld 9 with a +3 bonus, you are Ld 10. If you were to have a reduced Ld (such as -2 from Deathleaper) in this situation you would still be Ld 10 (9+3-2=10).

Page 2, from memory. As above, it helps with Ld modifiers.

Codex/brb aren't on me atm, but I thought I remember reading that double 6 always fails. But I also thought that I remembered reading that the modifier can't be pushed past 10.

I'm probably thinking of leadership, which I'm not sure if it would apply to this situation. I'd need to reread the Tzeentch entry.

But it is not worded like that is it? I thought the wording bypased the manifest requierment? After all, there are quite limited things in the game that lets you have less leadership. Dark eldar boat upgrade and deathleaper comes to mind...but that seems really odd.

Perhaps it will get FAQ?

The rules on page 2 are quite explicit, I suggest you give them a read. NO characteristic may go above 10 unless exempted, and leadership is NOT exempt from this cap

Even if it could go higher than 10, I believe a 12 would still fail.

Helps you get around Grey Knight Aegis and improved Aegis....

For leadership you cannot be above 10, unless the rule allows this. Since it doesn't...

This is not a case of the leadership not increasing but the manifester check get a +3 then?

As several people have already mentioned, read the section on BRB p2 titled "Modifiers."

 Niiai wrote:
This is not a case of the leadership not increasing but the manifester check get a +3 then?[/quote
It states you get +3 TO YOUR LEADERSHIP. This is the stat that cannot go above 10.

Hmmm...right you are. Some of them are leadership 7 so I gues it makes sence.

If it was -3 to the result of the test then it would work, but it's not so it doesn't.

We can also use the Ork Mob Rules as precedent. The mob rule allows the leadership of a Wierdboy to go above 10, but it was FAQed to be maxed at 10.

 gardeth wrote:
Helps you get around Grey Knight Aegis and improved Aegis....

+3 -5 then, right?

Its there for when your Ld is reduced.

Like a GK Dreadnought with Reinforced Aegis. You have +3, they force -4. So you suffer only a -1 to your Ld for the power.

Of if you are under the influence of another psychic power that reduces your Ld.

Hazard30 wrote:
We can also use the Ork Mob Rules as precedent. The mob rule allows the leadership of a Wierdboy to go above 10, but it was FAQed to be maxed at 10.

No, it NEVER allowed it to go above 10, because at no point does it contradict the rulebook. It ALWAYS capped at 10 - ALWAYS.

just to ask then, since whenever gains or takes to these stats are mentioned it says Cap at 10 OR it says stop at 1.

is it slaneesh that says -5 to init no limiter? same as tzeentch says add 3? no mention of capping the limits..

i realise that a 2 or 12 is all bad but what about the 11

Again, page two. If you are saying this does not apply you will need some actual rules

Gotcha

ok so you cant reduce init below 0 BUT what happens when its 0 because that stat is then no longer used?

how does all this work?

Not sure what you mean by "no longer used"

 Grey Templar wrote:
Not sure what you mean by "no longer used"

In combat, you never hit initiative step 0, so you never get to swing, and combat never is completed.

-Matt

No, combat IS completed, because combat is defined as using init 1 - 10.

so if with slaneesh you give a -5 to init to a SM they dont get to swing?

edit, im now trying to find the unit that does it again.....

HawaiiMatt wrote:

 Grey Templar wrote:
Not sure what you mean by "no longer used"

In combat, you never hit initiative step 0, so you never get to swing, and combat never is completed.

-Matt

If this was true then against all vehicles but walkers a combat would never end...

ausYenLoWang wrote:so if with slaneesh you give a -5 to init to a SM they dont get to swing?

edit, im now trying to find the unit that does it again.....

That would be fiends, or psykers with Acquiescence.

I'd assume that they wouldn't get to swing, but I'm sure it will be FaQ'd to say 'to a minimum of 1'

 Matt.Kingsley wrote:

HawaiiMatt wrote:

 Grey Templar wrote:
Not sure what you mean by "no longer used"

In combat, you never hit initiative step 0, so you never get to swing, and combat never is completed.

-Matt

If this was true then against all vehicles but walkers a combat would never end...

ausYenLoWang wrote:so if with slaneesh you give a -5 to init to a SM they dont get to swing?

edit, im now trying to find the unit that does it again.....

That would be fiends, or psykers with Acquiescence.

I'd assume that they wouldn't get to swing, but I'm sure it will be FaQ'd to say 'to a minimum of 1'

i presume the above as well mate, as well as capping the tzeentch bonus to LD 10.....

What I'm thinking is, your leadership can't go above 10, but that's not what the Tzeentch thing does. It simply treats your leadership as 3 higher, for the purposes of psychic powers. Therefore, your model would stay at leadership 9, but would be treated as if it were leadership 12 when trying to get off a psychic test. 2 and 12 are still perils, but successful ones that way.

It's a fine distinction, between making your leadership higher than 10, and treating it temporarilly, as higher than 10.

But I can guarantee this will be one thing that get's FAQ'd, one way or another, so for now, we can merely speculate.