Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

Deep strike rules say you treat a deep striking vehicle as if it were moving at cruising speed. It also says you can't move any further after deep striking, and that if you land on friendly or enemy units you roll on the deep strike table.

However, the rules for skimmers says(pg 83): "If a Skimmer is forced to end its move over friendly or enemy models, move the Skimmer the minimum distance so that no models are left underneath it."

Can this skimmer rule be used to avoid having to roll on the deep strike mishap table?

This is how I'm reading it, and if generally accepted this way, it makes skimmers far more reliable as deep strike units.

No. The deep strike scatter is not, in itself, movement. If it was, 90% of models couldn't actually mishap because the basic rules prohibit ending your move on other models or impassable terrain.

Those rules don't apply to skimmers though. Skimmers specifically say they CAN end their movement even in impassable terrain, and that if anything would cause them to end their movement over friendly or enemy models, move them the minimum distance required so that they are not over any models.

Even the deep strike rule says that the vehicle is counted as having moved at cruising speed.

I believe the basic rules simply say that you can't move over/on to other units. That wouldn't protect them from the deep strike rule since deep strike is an advanced rule, and advanced>basic.

What we're discussing here are the interactions between two advanced rules from the same book. Deep Strike Vs Skimmer.

There is only 1 thing that forces you to roll for a mishap: Not being able to deploy. Skimmers can deploy anywhere that they're able to be placed, and have a special rule to be moved if over friendly or enemy units.

Skimmers can only end their move on impassable terrain because of their movement rules. If you're ignoring the basic infantry movement rules in favour of the Deep Strike rules you have to ignore the skimmer ones as well. You don't get to pick and choose.

If the Deep Strike Scatter is movement, then no one can mishap because the movement rules prohibit you from moving into impassable terrain or give you permission to move into it with other consequences. If the scatter is not movement, then the movement rules don't apply and skimmers don't have permission to deploy on impassable terrain.

Reread deepstrike, and note that you are told that the model is where you want the unit to arrive. The unit does not arrive until AFTER you have completed the scatter, which is AFTER any mishap result.

Then, ONCE you have arrived, you are treated as having moved cruising speed.

You are making a common mistake, but a mistake nonetheless.

Ok, so even if we concede that they can't use the rule to move the skimmer so that it doesn't land on another model, the rules for deep strike read that the only reason you would roll on the mishap table is by not being able to deploy your unit, then it gives several examples of why you may not be able to deploy. Normal units may not deploy or even enter into impassable terrain, and so it cites that as an example as I read it.

If the unit, such as skimmers, have a rule that says they MAY end their turn in impassable terrain so long as it's possible to actually place the model there, wouldn't that mean that they wouldn't roll mishap in that situation?

You said it yourself, deepstriking you deploy the model, movment phase you move your model. It will mishap and trying to bend the rules to suit wont work in this case.

BetrayTheWorld wrote:
If the unit, such as skimmers, have a rule that says they MAY end their turn in impassable terrain so long as it's possible to actually place the model there, wouldn't that mean that they wouldn't roll mishap in that situation?

END their movement, that's the important part. The skimmer scatters and mishaps before the end of their movement.
So the mishap happens before that rule comes into play.

MarkyMark wrote:
You said it yourself, deepstriking you deploy the model, movment phase you move your model. It will mishap and trying to bend the rules to suit wont work in this case.

BRB pg121, under deployment: Units cannot deploy in impassable terrain unless they are normally allowed to move over impassable terrain and can fit on it.

So in this case, arguing that it says deploy actually just reinforces my case instead of disproving it. Thanks for pointing that out.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 grendel083 wrote:

BetrayTheWorld wrote:
If the unit, such as skimmers, have a rule that says they MAY end their turn in impassable terrain so long as it's possible to actually place the model there, wouldn't that mean that they wouldn't roll mishap in that situation?

END their movement, that's the important part. The skimmer scatters and mishaps before the end of their movement.
So the mishap happens before that rule comes into play.

They are also allowed to deploy there, per the deployment rule I just quoted. The only thing that causes a mishap is not being able to deploy your unit to the appointed position.

If you have already made up your mind about it, why did you ask in the 1st place? As you see EVERYBODY is telling you that you are mistaken.

When you deep strike you check if one or more of the conditions that causes a mishap applies. If that is the case then you roll on the mishap table. If not THEN you deploy your unit.

The passage you quoted is there for some rare cases ie ramming, that your skimmer may end up above an enemy unit. So you use that rule to move the skimmer accordingly. It's not meant to be used for deep striking.

I have an opinion based on the information in the books, yes. I'm not opposed to hearing evidence directly from a book to say otherwise. If you read what I pointed out, there aren't multiple conditions that cause a deep strike mishap. There is only 1. That condition is that you are unable to deploy the model.

Both the movement rules, and the deployment rules support that skimmers may, in fact, deploy onto impassable terrain so long as you can physically place the model there.

You are trying to mix n match different rules in order to make an impossible argument. The deep strike mishap entry specifies the exact reasons when a unit that arrives via deep strike rules cannot be deployed and what happens to them. When you deep strike you use the rules for deep stike ONLY. In order to modify DS rules you will need specific permissions to do so ie Drop Pod

Betray - except that only appies when the model has arrived, i/e/ has deployed. The mishap occurs before this.

Deployment is not movement. Please cite the page number it says you may deploy skimmers on impassible terrain, I don't see it right off. Even if that's the case though, that says nothing about deploying on top of friendly/enemy units.

Abandon wrote:Deployment is not movement. Please cite the page number it says you may deploy skimmers on impassible terrain, I don't see it right off.

BetrayTheWorld wrote:BRB pg121, under deployment: Units cannot deploy in impassable terrain unless they are normally allowed to move over impassable terrain and can fit on it.

Abandon wrote:Even if that's the case though, that says nothing about deploying on top of friendly/enemy units.

BetrayTheWorld wrote:Ok, so even if we concede that they can't use the rule to move the skimmer so that it doesn't land on another model, the rules for deep strike read that the only reason you would roll on the mishap table is by not being able to deploy your unit, then it gives several examples of why you may not be able to deploy. Normal units may not deploy or even enter into impassable terrain, and so it cites that as an example as I read it.

If the unit, such as skimmers, have a rule that says they MAY end their turn in impassable terrain so long as it's possible to actually place the model there, wouldn't that mean that they wouldn't roll mishap in that situation?

I don't agree with his interpretations, but please at least read the thread.

rigeld2 wrote:

Abandon wrote:Deployment is not movement. Please cite the page number it says you may deploy skimmers on impassible terrain, I don't see it right off.

BetrayTheWorld wrote:BRB pg121, under deployment: Units cannot deploy in impassable terrain unless they are normally allowed to move over impassable terrain and can fit on it.

Abandon wrote:Even if that's the case though, that says nothing about deploying on top of friendly/enemy units.

BetrayTheWorld wrote:Ok, so even if we concede that they can't use the rule to move the skimmer so that it doesn't land on another model, the rules for deep strike read that the only reason you would roll on the mishap table is by not being able to deploy your unit, then it gives several examples of why you may not be able to deploy. Normal units may not deploy or even enter into impassable terrain, and so it cites that as an example as I read it.

If the unit, such as skimmers, have a rule that says they MAY end their turn in impassable terrain so long as it's possible to actually place the model there, wouldn't that mean that they wouldn't roll mishap in that situation?

I don't agree with his interpretations, but please at least read the thread.

Quite right, I apologize OP, I missed a bunch of stuff you already said. Thanks for calling me on that rigeld2. Next time I'll have my first cup of coffee before I start posting

No problem. I still have yet to see anything to change my mind here. If anyone comes up with anything new or definitive, I'd be interested in hearing about it.

Betray I don't agree with your position, but since you're willing to risk two dangerous terrain tests by dropping on impassible terrain I'd probably say 4+ it at the table

BetrayTheWorld wrote:
No problem. I still have yet to see anything to change my mind here. If anyone comes up with anything new or definitive, I'd be interested in hearing about it.

How about the fact that the skimmer rule only applies when the model has arrived, i/e/ has deployed. The mishap occurs before this.

The rule on pg 121 states that if it can be moved over and land on impassable terrain, as the skimmer rules indicate, it can be deployed on impassable terrain.

Yes, but the more specific Deep Striking rules come into play and make you mishap before your permission to land there comes into effect.

 Grey Templar wrote:
Yes, but the more specific Deep Striking rules come into play and make you mishap before your permission to land there comes into effect.

The specific drop rules refer to the deployment rules. The only thing that causes a mishap is not being able to deploy to the spot you scatter to. In order to see if you can deploy, you must see the deployment rules.

Hmmm... so far I'm thinking Betray has a decent point (but I'm admittedly biased on this one because the fate of my beloved Monoliths is at stake).

I honestly do not think skimmers are immune to these mishaps, but I'm struggling to disprove Betray's logic here.


Automatically Appended Next Post:


Ah crap. I found a way to disprove Betray's logic.


Here's the relevant lines about Deep Strike Mishaps and Skimmers:
"If any of the models in a deep striking unit cannot be deployed, because at least one model would land partially or fully off the table, in impassible terrain, on top of a friendly model, or on top of or within 1" of an enemy model, something has gone wrong." (BRB p. 36)

"A Skimmer can even end its move over impassible terrtain if it is possible to actually place the model on top of it, but if it does so it must take a dangerous terrain test." (BRB p. 83)

"If a Skimmer is forced to end its move over friendly or enemy models, move the Skimmer the minimum distance so that no models are left underneath it." (BRB p. 83)

What this means:
Skimmers are immune to deep strike mishaps from impassible terrain so long as the skimmer can be placed on top of the terrain. In order to mishap, two requirements must be fulfilled:
1. Landing in impassible terrain and
2. Being unable to deploy.

Because the Skimmer can end its move in impassible terrain, it can deploy there, as Deep Striking counts as movement at cruising speed (BRB p. 36). Therefore, if the Skimmer can physically be placed on top of the impassible terrain, then it can end its movement there and thus fails to meet requirement #2 for the Deep Strike Mishap event.



However, Skimmers are NOT immune from Deep Strike Mishaps if they scatter onto an enemy unit. There are actually two distinct reasons for this, each equally as valid.
(Translation: Feth you, azazel the cat, for hoping, -just for an instant- that you could deep strike your beloved Monoliths into your opponent's troops like before.)

Here's why:

Reason #1 (affects friendly and enemy models)
When ending their move over other models, skimmers are moved the minimum distance. This means that if a Deep Striking Skimmer scatters onto another model, the Skimmer's rules will force the Skimmer to move so that it does not overlap with the other model. However, a Deep Strike Mishap doesn't actually care about whether or not the Skimmer DOES end its move on top of another model; the Deep Strike Mishap only cares about whether or not the Skimmer WOULD HAVE landed on top of the other model, as underlined in the appropriate quote at the top of this post.

Reason #2 (only affects enemy models, but this one is even more ironclad than #1)
Skimmers, when forced to end its move over other models, are moved the minimum distance so that no models are left underneath it (BRB p. 83). However, a Deep Strike Mishap occurs if the Skimmer lands within 1" of an enemy model. A Skimmer's rule moves it the minimum distance so that it is not on top of enemy models, but it is still within 1" of them (technically, it should be in base contact) and thus a Deep Strike Mishap takes place as per BRB p. 36



TL;DR
-Skimmers are not affected by Deep Strike Mishaps as a result of impassible terrain so long as the Skimmer can be physically placed on top of that terrain.
-Skimmers are affected by Deep Strike Mishaps when they scatter onto or within 1" of enemy models.
-Skimmers are affected by Deep Strike Mishaps when they scatter onto friendly models.

 azazel the cat wrote:

Reason #2 (only affects enemy models, but this one is even more ironclad than #1)
Skimmers, when forced to end its move over other models, are moved the minimum distance so that no models are left underneath it. However, a Deep Strike Mishap occurs if the Skimmer lands within 1" of an enemy model. A Skimmer's rule moves it the minimum distance so that it is not on top of enemy models, but it is still within 1" of them (technically, it should be in base contact) and thus a Deep Strike Mishap takes place as per BRB p. 83

Which now must be applied to Drop Pods, as they only reduce the scatter enough to "avoid the obstacle", not to "avoid the Mishap".

 megatrons2nd wrote:

 azazel the cat wrote:

Reason #2 (only affects enemy models, but this one is even more ironclad than #1)
Skimmers, when forced to end its move over other models, are moved the minimum distance so that no models are left underneath it. However, a Deep Strike Mishap occurs if the Skimmer lands within 1" of an enemy model. A Skimmer's rule moves it the minimum distance so that it is not on top of enemy models, but it is still within 1" of them (technically, it should be in base contact) and thus a Deep Strike Mishap takes place as per BRB p. 83

Which now must be applied to Drop Pods, as they only reduce the scatter enough to "avoid the obstacle", not to "avoid the Mishap".

Well getting within one inch of an enemy model is an obstacle, as you can not land there legally.

Avoiding the obstacle means avoiding the mishap as well.

Drop pod guidance thing does not mention landing within 1" just on the model, making the model the obstacle not the mishap. If you say that the mishap is the obstacle then the guidance kicks in even if it lands off the table as the mishap is the obstacle and you avoid that. How about landing within 1"? How does guidance function then as it is not landing on the model how can guidance even be activated? What does the FAQ say about landing off the table, if the mishap is the obstacle how can you ever have to roll on the mishap table?

The only argument for drop pods moving 1" away from enemy models using guidance is in the DS rules itself. It has to do with their wording not even their intent. You cannot be deployed because you are "on top of or within 1" of an enemy model". People play the drop pod as a free drop but that is not the intent as it is clear that they mean it to mishap on occasion.

Edit: The only things mentioned in the Inertial Guidance are landing in impassable terrain or on top of a model. Those are the only obstacles mentioned and they are the only things avoided.

 Gravmyr wrote:
Drop pod guidance thing does not mention landing within 1" just on the model, making the model the obstacle not the mishap. If you say that the mishap is the obstacle then the guidance kicks in even if it lands off the table as the mishap is the obstacle and you avoid that. How about landing within 1"? How does guidance function then as it is not landing on the model how can guidance even be activated? What does the FAQ say about landing off the table, if the mishap is the obstacle how can you ever have to roll on the mishap table?

The only argument for drop pods moving 1" away from enemy models using guidance is in the DS rules itself. It has to do with their wording not even their intent. You cannot be deployed because you are "on top of or within 1" of an enemy model". People play the drop pod as a free drop but that is not the intent as it is clear that they mean it to mishap on occasion.

Edit: The only things mentioned in the Inertial Guidance are landing in impassable terrain or on top of a model. Those are the only obstacles mentioned and they are the only things avoided.

Basically it boils down to one of two choices:

1) the Inertial Guidance system on Drop pods lets you avoid a mishap from landing on top of an enemy unit by moving it the minimum distance required to avoid the mishap.

Or

2) the Inertial Guidance system on Drop pods only makes you avoid the model and you land within one inch anyway and mishap.

One makes the Inertial Guidance system on Drop pods useless (#2) and one makes the Inertial Guidance system on Drop pods function normally (#1)

as #2 makes the rule useless it can not be the correct interpretation.

It still allows you to avoid a mishap from friendly models and impassable terrain in option 2 and you think it's useless?

Edit: Normal is not a word that should be used in reference to this game. As set by precedent possibly but if there's anything they have shown it's that this edition is setting new directions for the game. Since GW hasn't put out a FAQ dealing with this for this edition, possibly ever, then we have to use what is written and moving the model an 1" away violates the RAW.

 DeathReaper wrote:

 Gravmyr wrote:
Drop pod guidance thing does not mention landing within 1" just on the model, making the model the obstacle not the mishap. If you say that the mishap is the obstacle then the guidance kicks in even if it lands off the table as the mishap is the obstacle and you avoid that. How about landing within 1"? How does guidance function then as it is not landing on the model how can guidance even be activated? What does the FAQ say about landing off the table, if the mishap is the obstacle how can you ever have to roll on the mishap table?

The only argument for drop pods moving 1" away from enemy models using guidance is in the DS rules itself. It has to do with their wording not even their intent. You cannot be deployed because you are "on top of or within 1" of an enemy model". People play the drop pod as a free drop but that is not the intent as it is clear that they mean it to mishap on occasion.

Edit: The only things mentioned in the Inertial Guidance are landing in impassable terrain or on top of a model. Those are the only obstacles mentioned and they are the only things avoided.

Basically it boils down to one of two choices:

1) the Inertial Guidance system on Drop pods lets you avoid a mishap from landing on top of an enemy unit by moving it the minimum distance required to avoid the mishap.

Or

2) the Inertial Guidance system on Drop pods only makes you avoid the model and you land within one inch anyway and mishap.

One makes the Inertial Guidance system on Drop pods useless (#2) and one makes the Inertial Guidance system on Drop pods function normally (#1)

as #2 makes the rule useless it can not be the correct interpretation.

So then you are agreeing that the skimmer is moved away from the enemy models. Because you know the rule is useless if you don't allow it this move.

"If a Skimmer is forced to end it's move over friendly or enemy models, move the Skimmer the minimum distance so that no models are left underneath it."

As there is no situation aside from deepstrike that will "force" the skimmer to end it's move over enemy models this must be the way it works.

Edit: Before you say "Tank Shock" the Tank Shock rule specifically has the models it would end over being moved out from under the vehicle.

Actually as a skimmer I can choose not to tank shock a unit to ram the tank behind them or tank shock the unit behind them. It's those instances that the skimmer movement rule was designed to come into play.

Edit: Not that I wouldn't love for it to work as a Necron player. As has been pointed out though the first model you place is a marker and your unit is not deployed till after the mishap would happen. Since the skimmer rule says the model is moved and does not specify that it affects DS then it mishaps over models. Your pointing out of the rules for deployment though make it a more viable choice as you can choose to put out a piece of impassable terrain just for this purpose.