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So, I've been playing on and off again since 4th edition, so this is hardly new, but as they've got a new codex, I've found myself playing against Tau more frequently. I just played another game against them tonight, and it struck me, in all these years, I don't think I've ever had fun playing against a Tau army. Not once.

And the more I think about it, the less it's surprising, as this particular army for some time now has been shutting down your opponent's ability to do things as its primary style, but it seems even more egregious with the current codex.

For example, why does it matter how I move or deploy if my opponent's guns are basically always in range, and they basically always ignore cover now? What's the point of bringing high-mobility options when so many things get interceptor, and come with secondary weapons so they still get to shoot the next turn anyways? What's the point of the assault phase when you can eat an entire army of overwatch fire every time you charge? What's the point of the shooting phase if you stuff is either not in range, because their stuff has longer range and/or is more mobile, and because your opponents get to use the shooting phase but you don't, thanks to MSM and LOS-blocking terrain.

And don't get me wrong, it's not that Tau are just overpowered or anything. I can handle strong armies. It's more that I don't even want to win against Tau if it means I have to suffer through playing a game against them. It just feels like the special rules of this army have traditionally, and now moreso, just cheapen so much of the game that it's rather difficult to see it as more than my opponent doing virtually nothing (not likely moving that much, and never assaulting), and spending their time preventing me from doing virtually anything, what with making so many of my potential decisions irrelevant. Really, I might as well just watch someone play yahtzee with themselves.

And so this thread is in the general forum not because I need advice for how to beat Tau armies. What I want to know is how it's possible to have a game that's... well... a game against this particular army. How do you have fun against an army whose special rules strip what little strategy 40k has right out of the game?

Or should I just take a little break until the next codex comes out and I can finally get some non-tau opponents to play against again?

Pretend you hate all the models you've lovingly assembled and painted and want to watch them die to sushi in mechas.

It helps if you stop playing under self-imposed limits where you don't take powerful units and cripple yourself before the game even begins. And it really helps if you stop assuming that a game against Tau is going to suck and turning everything into a self-fulfilling prophecy. For example, if you refuse to get scared into giving up the assault phase because of overwatch you'll realize that you can charge first with an expendable bait unit, or charge multiple units at the same time and divide up overwatch, or just take tough units that can shrug off overwatch fire and win combat anyway. But you're never going to enjoy the game if you insist that you're helpless against everything Tau can do and not even bother to try.

With Tau, you can't force overwatch that easily, since you can overwatch within 6', the charged units overwatches the bait, and all squads on the sides overwatch the main threat.

Considering you play Imperial guard, I really think that your army has some of the best tools for dealing with Tau. Hit them with a bunch of Russes. Massed AV 14 is going to be more of a threat to them now that the only S 10 in their army is from hammerheads and that gauntlet (which a battlesuit has to get close to use.) Sure they have 18" melta guns, but a bunch of st8 shooting should be more than enough to kill all of it before it gets that near, and if they deep strike they get one turn to blow you off the board before you destroy them.

I run horde orks.

They point at tau and larf

Granted not many tend to be standing sometimes to be enjoying that post battle larf, but it can be fun to see how many will survive long enough to get stuck in ...

I play Tau, BA, and IG. I have plenty of fun playing vs tau, mostly because they lack a lot of the OP crap of other codexes...they have some good units but they don't have a deathball or a leafblower list that everyone at the flgs runs. And even our crisis suits are pretty wimpy to a lot of things. They're little more than doubled up space marines with more agility...

Then again I haven't tried the new codex yet. Maybe we're actually good again instead of having a codex chocked full of units that are crap (vespid, ethereals, bodyguards, kroot, sniper drones, or skyrays leap immediately to mind) meaning all we can field is crisis suits if we want to stand a chance...

Personally I love the cat and mouse game that occurs with BA vs tau or mobile IG vs tau as units keep vying back and forth to get into a strike range

Guard against Tau have been some of the most enjoyable games I've had in 40K, I hope the new codex lives up to this.

lots of dice rolling . not the most fun of games , but there are less fun match ups in the world then tau.

I like the idea of playing against New Tau, because they really are a "house of cards" army. They can ignore cover, but they need their markerlights to do it. And lots of markerlights aren't cheap. Missilesides can be devastating, but they can drop models fast if you position your attacks well, and their damage output drops disproportionately quickly. Insta-deathing an Ethereal limits damage output and resiliency.

As mentioned, they can have trouble with AV13-14. They die in CC, and sacrificial or flank charges can be very effective.

In my opinion, New Tau encourage more interactive play than most other armies.

The amount of marker lights needed to ignore cover and help the aiming is expensive as crap. And usually vulnerable since its 36" which is short enough to prevent them from camping behind the gunline. Drones are the most durable one, and its only a 4+ save and since they sit high in the air its hard to give them anything but area terrain cover.

They should be the first target. Tau can function without markerlights but you hurt them drastically by taking them out. I can only think of a few units that really dont care that much, thats because BS3 with twinlinked still has a damn good chance to hit.

Besides negating cover or giving a SINGLE unit Gets Hot! if youre too close to that 1 model that causes it, what do they do to shut you down? Ignoring cover isnt THAT big unless your army depends uponi it (like my orks)

Also, it helps if you remember that 40k consists of more than just "meet at midfield, roll some dice, and see what happens". If you aren't expecting a game in which both players move forward and expose themselves to anything their opponent wants to do then you won't be disappointed when you face an army that uses alternative tactics to force a situation that is more to their advantage and you might even come prepared to counter it.

 Ailaros wrote:
What I want to know is how it's possible to have a game that's... well... a game against this particular army. How do you have fun against an army whose special rules strip what little strategy 40k has right out of the game?

I've had a blast playing them with my SoB, both the old and the new Tau codex. They shoot a lot but I have no problems getting at them (except for the suits with that damn jetpack move). Run Rhinos up the board and LOS some units if you can so they all can't shoot you, then start picking them off. Exorcists kill suits first, tanks second. Sisters try to wipe out their scoring units. Outflanking Dominions make short work of 1-2 tanks when they come in, then that flank starts to disintegrate. Easy pickings really.

Run Rhinos up the board and LOS some units

imperial guard doesnt run up the board , nor does it have rhinos.

Makumba wrote:

Run Rhinos up the board and LOS some units

imperial guard doesnt run up the board , nor does it have rhinos.

They have chimeras and deepstriking stormtroopers. I don't know the stats of Tau backfield units but I'm guessing that deepstriking stormies with plasma guns will do some damage, and three of them will break up the backfield nicely.

OP, I do see where you're coming from. Tau can be very boring to play against, but only if your army is mundane. A guard player will have Basilisks which will outrange his stuff, and deepstrikers/outflanking blob so that the Tau player doesn't have the option of simply sitting back and rolling dice.

I always have fun playing against Tau, they usually have some variety in their armies now. Not to mention the way their units work make it an interesting fight compared to other gunline armies.

Now IG? IG are the worst things I've played against, you'll see the same thing, they all play the same way. Not to mention unlike tau they still have their Top Tier goodies while playing, as well as being a completely boring gunline, not to mention it usually has been played by TFG from my experience.

Makumba wrote:

Run Rhinos up the board and LOS some units

imperial guard doesnt run up the board , nor does it have rhinos.

Vets in Chimera's with plasma guns?

Marbo can be hilarious against Tau. With the new rules fire warriors and Ethereals and even broadsides are going to be bunched together. Drop in behind the gunline and wack a a creamy pie plate when their not expecting it.

 Messy0 wrote:

Makumba wrote:

Run Rhinos up the board and LOS some units

imperial guard doesnt run up the board , nor does it have rhinos.

Vets in Chimera's with plasma guns?

Marbo can be hilarious against Tau. With the new rules fire warriors and Ethereals and even broadsides are going to be bunched together. Drop in behind the gunline and wack a a creamy pie plate when their not expecting it.

Seeing as Tau have a good number of interceptor models. When he enters from Reserve he'll pretty much go *Splat* before he can toss said pieplate.

They have chimeras and deepstriking stormtroopers.

but no IG army uses storm troopers they are bad , makes no sense to buy them if they are ok only against tau . taking marine in drop pods as ally would probably be better.

Vets in Chimera's with plasma guns?

you would have to run 2-3 and that would fix your army as a 5th ed mecha list , they would have to be armed with flamers too . there still would be a big problem of IG dudes being unable to survive as long out of transports as marines can . considering most armies are meq those units wouldnt realy help in most match ups . not to mention the fact that people would have to buy chimeras in the first place and most probably wouldnt want 3 of them .

 ZebioLizard2 wrote:

 Messy0 wrote:

Makumba wrote:

Run Rhinos up the board and LOS some units

imperial guard doesnt run up the board , nor does it have rhinos.

Vets in Chimera's with plasma guns?

Marbo can be hilarious against Tau. With the new rules fire warriors and Ethereals and even broadsides are going to be bunched together. Drop in behind the gunline and wack a a creamy pie plate when their not expecting it.

Seeing as Tau have a good number of interceptor models. When he enters from Reserve he'll pretty much go *Splat* before he can toss said pieplate.

I may be wrong here, but Marbo has Stealth I think. So just put him in terrain or with models between him and the unit with Interceptor. That would make him more survivable.

As for having fun playing Tau, I can see where OP is coming from. My first army was Tau and both of my most common opponents at the time now have an almost irrational hatred of the Tau because they are so good and shutting your enemies army down and forcing him to play into your hands.

They are good, but not impossible to beat and as someone said above, their weakness now seems to be heavy armor. So, bring some Leman Russ tanks and smash those blue xenos! Wouldn't that be fun?

I can totally see were the OP is coming from as Ive yet to win against Tau with my Orks

Im currently switching up to my IG force and collecting Russes.

I also recommend using a Bastion against them as its a highly reliable form of protection for a large group of infantry AND..its more AV14 to deal with
Granted the amount of models that can fire out of it are limited but with guard those can be lascannons,Auto cannons even a Master of Ordinance.Then of course you can also man the HB on your main target while the other HB`s do opportunity auto fire.

Makumba wrote:

They have chimeras and deepstriking stormtroopers.

but no IG army uses storm troopers they are bad , makes no sense to buy them if they are ok only against tau . taking marine in drop pods as ally would probably be better.

That's absurd. If Storm Troopers weren't in the the IG codex with half of its army list being overpowered, they'd be considered one of the best units in the game.

 DarknessEternal wrote:

Makumba wrote:

They have chimeras and deepstriking stormtroopers.

but no IG army uses storm troopers they are bad , makes no sense to buy them if they are ok only against tau . taking marine in drop pods as ally would probably be better.

That's absurd. If Storm Troopers weren't in the the IG codex with half of its army list being overpowered, they'd be considered one of the best units in the game.

Probably not, they're objectively mediocre at best. They pay an absurd amount of points for AP3 and a pistol, while aside from that they're Carapace Vets (and Carapace is already not cheap for what it does) with some special deployment rule. Aside from the extra S3 attack they fight like normal Guardsmen, they aren't much more durable than normal guardsmen, they aren't any more steadfast than normal guardsmen, they just get AP3 on S3 guns with blunt range, meaning they're trading casualties 1 for 1 against a Space Marine squad that's cheaper man for man.

Fun is relative. It hasn't been fun lately playing against Cronair or triple Heldrake lists, but I have endured.

Tau is the army that got me into 40k. I really enjoy their fluff and am fairly pleased with the new Codex. I haven't had this much fun making lists in a long time and figuring out what to buy next. I enjoy pickup games the most as I can field fluffy fun lists. But I do plan on making more competitive lists for FLGS tournaments to try and challenge the top players in my area.

DexKivuli wrote:In my opinion, New Tau encourage more interactive play than most other armies.

How?

BryllCream wrote:They have chimeras and deepstriking stormtroopers... A guard player will have Basilisks which will outrange his stuff, and deepstrikers/outflanking blob so that the Tau player doesn't have the option of simply sitting back and rolling dice.

Firstly, as mentioned, tau get interceptor with at least Ap4 weapons for practically free - not just in points cost, but in the fact that you don't need to make meaningful sacrifices to do it. Secondly, it's not like tau are plenty capable of breaking apart AV12 vehicles before they get a chance to do anything, and our AV14 vehicles don't have much long-range firepower, which, thirdly brings us to artillery. Two gunlines playing against each other is pretty much the most shallow way to play 40k, and thus, to me, the most boring and tedious.

Anyways, allow me to reiterate, I'm not asking how people beat tau. Winning against an army is a tactics discussion. I'm asking how do you have fun? Win or lose, why is it worthwhile to even unpack the minis?

To me, the only way that 40k is any different from yahtzee is that it has a bunch of rules that modify stuff. Sometimes you ignore armor saves, and sometimes you don't. Sometimes you get to move at full speed and sometimes you don't. Sometimes you have weapons that can break open tanks, but some weapons can't, etc. etc. Because if it were just a straight dice rolling game, then what would be the point?

And that's my problem here. You can come up with a psychic defense army, but tau cast psychic powers without perils rolls, and you can't deny the witch against them. No matter how expensive they are, markerlights can always make at least a few things not have cover saves, which, given that much of their stuff is also jump pack units, means that terrain sort of doesn't matter. As mentioned, Tau are basically setting up a game where you have to pretend like all of the rules between page 20 and 28 just don't exist.

Fun for me is getting to actually do stuff. Making use out of the rules, and not just simply rolling dice. I'd much, much rather lose badly to an army where I at least got to shoot back at my opponent's stuff because they weren't always out of LOS when it was time to shoot back, or who crushed me in both shooting and assault than to win a game against a gunline dedicated to making the game more shallow.

For those of us on the low end of the totem pole power wise, you could ask yourself the same question about Imperial Guard.

They have a seemingly unbreakable and unlimited amount of infantry, ridiculously undercosted batle tanks disguised as "transports", nearly impervious to shooting bigger tanks, objectively the best fliers in the game, and thanks to being Imperial, more units from the expanded army lists that cover every other concievable option (I'm looking at you Sabers and Breaching Drills).

It's all a matter of perspective.

As an aside, Tyranids break just as many rules of the paradigm, just rules that matter less to IG.

But I'm not asking about codex power, or how to break stuff.

I'd certainly agree that leafblowers are tedious and awful to play against as well. But that's just because they're gunlines.

Now take a gunline and add to it a bunch of stuff that isn't just powerful against anti-gunline tactics, but that stops you from even doing anything against them.

You'd get a game where they unpack their minis and roll dice, and you unpack your minis and then pack them back up again and roll a few dice when your opponent's special rules allow you to roll them.

 Ailaros wrote:

You'd get a game where they unpack their minis and roll dice, and you unpack your minis and then pack them back up again and roll a few dice when your opponent's special rules allow you to roll them.

This is how I feel playing against IG.

 DarknessEternal wrote:
For those of us on the low end of the totem pole power wise, you could ask yourself the same question about Imperial Guard.

They have a seemingly unbreakable and unlimited amount of infantry, ridiculously undercosted batle tanks disguised as "transports", nearly impervious to shooting bigger tanks, objectively the best fliers in the game, and thanks to being Imperial, more units from the expanded army lists that cover every other concievable option (I'm looking at you Sabers and Breaching Drills).

It's all a matter of perspective.

As an aside, Tyranids break just as many rules of the paradigm, just rules that matter less to IG.

I think you're missing the OP's point. It's not about being overpowered. Both tau and IG can be beaten. It's the fact that the tau take all thought out of the game. There's no point in seeking cover saves. There's no point in outflanking. Tau make multiple phases of the game irrelevant.

The OP even said that he doesn't mind losing as long as the decisions of positioning and movement had meaning.

 DarknessEternal wrote:
For those of us on the low end of the totem pole power wise, you could ask yourself the same question about Imperial Guard.

They have a seemingly unbreakable and unlimited amount of infantry, ridiculously undercosted batle tanks disguised as "transports", nearly impervious to shooting bigger tanks, objectively the best fliers in the game,

While some of this is true in a sense, they likely aren't all true at once in any one list. The "battle tanks disguised as transports" is rather silly, Chimeras aren't exactly great units in 6th edition (I've stopped running them altogether) and aren't anything near battle tank status, IG infantry are anything but unbreakable unless you give up a lot of flexibility and sink a lot into making them roughly on par with SM's sporting ATSKNF (which still isn't unbreakable), and Leman Russ tanks aren't anything special in regards to durability other than that they've got AV14 frontal armor (no different than a Battlewagon or Land Raider) which while strong is not impervious.

and thanks to being Imperial, more units from the expanded army lists that cover every other concievable option (I'm looking at you Sabers and Breaching Drills).

One may want to check out the current rules on the breaching drills, they got nerfed to be nigh unusable in the IA Volume 1 re-release, as their blast got made smaller and less powerful and if anything's left after it comes up (it no longer moves units) it causes a mishap with a -2 modifier (meaning 50/50 chance to destroy) and takes the follow up squad with it now.