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[2000 pts. Guard vs. GK and Tau] The Hand of the King - Episode XLVI (Consequences)  [RSS] Share on facebook Share on Twitter Submit to Reddit
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Made in us
Decrepit Dakkanaut





Vallejo, CA

To view the previous report in this series, click here. To view the next report in this series, click here. To view more battle reports in The Hand of the King series, click here.

To view the tactical overview for this report, click here.



***


"Stop! STOP!! Hold your fire!" Melchoir shouted, waving his arms over his head, shouting into the darkness.

Several meltaguns were pointed at his transport. A melta cannon was leveled at his head protruding from a tall hedge.

"Hold your fire!" he pleaded from his position in the chimera hatch. It was nearly pitch black. His own guardsmen scrambled to aim their weapons towards the bushes in return.

The two sides faced off against each other, a trigger pull away from a firefight. The guardsmen looked anxiously at Melchoir as he shouted. The leaves rustled with movement, bristling with guns pointed at them.

The night sky flashed as the two sides stared at each other silently. The raging sounds of battle echoed over them, adding a percussive intensity to the standoff.

Melchoir grit his teeth.

"Hold!" came a voice from the darkness.

"Yes, hold!" the officer returned.

The two sides continued to point melta weapons and lasguns at each other.

A shape appeared in the darkness. "Who is it?" the shadow asked.

"Marshal Melchoir Theleos," Melchoir replied, "Foleran forces."

A brown and white clad sergeant emerged from the foliage and up onto the road. He stared up at Melchoir, a bit wide-eyed.

"THE Marshal Melchoir?" he asked in a mix of awe and incredulity.

"I don't know of any other," the officer replied.

The guardsman studied his superior in the flickering light.

"All right, boys, lower your weapons. It's friendlies," he finally said after a pause. A moment later, a dozen guardsmen and a few fire tanks emerged into plain view from their hiding spot. Melchoir waved at his own soldiers to stand down.

"What's going on here, sergeant?" Melchoir asked as the guardsman approached the wheel well of his chimera.

"I was going to ask you the same thing, sir."

"I'm trying to fall back to somewhere were I can figure out what's going on. Do you have communication with anybody?" Melchoir asked unhopefully.

"No sir. It seems we're as lost as you are. With all due respect, sir, what the hell IS going on?"

Melchoir suppressed an eye-roll. He didn't have time or patience for this. He physically hurt all over, especially his shoulders, and he needed to get to some place where he could regain control of the situation.

"What's going on is that you and your men are following me now," he snapped, "We've got an extra chimera that you can use. Have the fire tanks form up in front."

The sergeant gave a quick salute before jogging off to relay the order.

Melchoir frowned as he watched things began to coalesce. He had virtually no idea where he was. Druxus had decided it would be safest for the integrity of his plans if he kept them secret from his command staff, only issuing them very specific orders without knowing what everyone else was doing. It cut down on the chance of needless creativity spoiling everything. The plan had gone clearly awry from the beginning, though, and now Druxus was neither seen, nor to be found via the vox. Amns was also mysteriously absent as well.

The inquisitor's belief in the supremacy of his ability to command and the die-hard nature of his leadership principle was threatening a total defeat. Thankfully, the officer now felt he was at liberty to use his own initiative now.

The scavenged tanks of his small war band formed up, and prepared to go. The flashing lights of battle raging all around him provided what little light he was able to see with. He dared not risk using his last few firefly grenades without knowing where the enemy was in the inky black of night. With only a rough idea of where he was, he was nearly at the point of guessing. He would just have to pick the best direction, and hope for the best.

Melchoir frowned again at the thought.

After a few seconds of watching the flashes and hearing the booming echoes of heavy weapons fire, he made his decision. "This is Melchoir," he said into his micro-bead, "Let's pull off this road and move off to the left. Cut between those towers up ahead."

The outline of a crumbled strong point loomed above them. The engines of the vehicles engaged, and the tanks started rolling towards them.



It was only then that Melchoir began to realise that he'd almost had his head blown off by friendly fire. The thought should have shocked him if he didn't feel so numb. If he wasn't already in pain. He blinked his eyes a few times to try and scatter the thought of the dimly-lit melta cannon barrel.

It didn't work. He'd need something else to distract him. Something else to focus on. His mind raced against the many unknowns, powerless to clear away his feeling of anxious, anticipatory fear.

The sounds of fighting came from every direction as various pockets of the two small armies fought each other in scattered pools, sloshing back and forth through the ruined city.

From off to his right, a new series of sparkling lights caught his eye. Antiaircraft fire was sweeping with intensifying thickness across the dark sky. The spray of gunfire began to lean in his direction.

Melchoir squinted, he could just make out the flickering forms of friendly aircraft. They must have been returning from a mission, and they were heading right towards them. As they closed in at low altitude, they began to bank to prevent colliding with the towers, sweeping over the ruined fortifications.



Suddenly, the ruins in front of him exploded with light and noise. Melchoir jerked his head over. A blinding spray of anti-aircraft fire shot up into the air from right in front of him.

Caught completely unawares, the vendettas were easy prey for the ground fire. Shot after shot intercepted the fliers, smashing apart their engines and ripping apart their wings. In a moment, they were turned into nothing more than cascading fireballs brightly lighting up the night sky.

"Enemy!" Melchoir shouted into his micro-bead, "Dead ahead!"

He may have nearly blundered into a trap, or a fixed position, or something else entirely. He only knew that he needed to get out before things spiraled out of control.

The air in front of the armored column exploded with heavy weapons fire. A deadly steam of light anti-tank projectiles slammed into the fire tanks at the front, and into one of the chimeras behind them.

It was already too late.



Enemy gunfire poured out from within the fortifications. Heavy anti-tank guns slammed into one of the fire tanks causing it to veer off sharply to try and hide behind a wall. More weapons fire slammed into the nearest chimera, causing it to burst into flame as the veterans inside piled out for their very lives.

"Left!" Melchoir shouted, "Wheel left! Get out of here!"

Those that could began to try to follow the order, swinging around the left side of the towers in front of them. Those that were under fire could only form up and try to back out as the enemy attack began to press on them.

Enemy infantry began to charge forwards, power weapons glowing faintly in the darkness. They bore down on the disembarked veterans.



Melchoir watched as a melta tank found its target, blasting apart an enemy vehicle, but not before it was taken out in turn by melta fire from somewhere. The officer craned his neck to see. From behind, an enemy transport charged forwards, the troops inside firing meltaguns at deadly short range. From behind the tower, sounds of guardsmen getting butchered broke out over the gunfire.

They were nearly completely trapped.

More gunfire continued to pour into the tanks, the volume of fire managing to find its mark. His forces were quickly getting overrun.



Melchoir's mind raced. "Go, come on!" he shouted to no one in particular.

His command transport raced forwards, followed by whoever could follow as they tried to make their way clear of the fortifications.



The loud pinging of ricochets accosted him as they moved out of the cover of the towers, stray weapons fire finding its way onto the side armor of the transports.

Then, from up ahead, more enemy came at him. A transport bristling with weapons of its own dove from cover behind a ruin and moved to block off Melchoir's escape. Melta fire slammed into the front of his chimera, and peeled up over the turret. Melchoir ducked his head as the enemy broadside ripped apart the wheel well in front of him, spraying hunks of liquid metal at the officer. Melchoir jumped down into the cab of his transport.

He was met by the vacant stare of a psyker. The officer recoiled, forgetting himself for a moment.

He had wanted to leave the witch to die, but was cajoled by the rest to sparing his life. A task which now seemed as difficult as it was pointless. With a screeching drone, the chimera ground to a halt and quickly set ablaze, pouring smoke into the cab.

"Everybody move!" he shouted, still not being able to take his gaze from the psyker. Their eyes were locked into each other. His head uncontrollably turned to keep looking as his body instinctively made for the back hatch of the vehicle.

Just as Melchoir and a few of his command staff managed to bail out, the front half of the chimera exploded violently, seething a pair of roiling fireballs up into the air between rent plates of steel armor.

"Come on, we've got to move!" he shouted again.



Faced with the enemy transport in front of him, and the enemy attacking all along the side, the officer strained to think his way out of the situation.

But it was far worse than he had imagined.

An enemy scouting force had been stalking them, waiting for the moment to strike. They chose just that moment to reveal themselves, attacking in from the rear.



Melchoir now WAS completely trapped.

The officer glanced on as the enemy swarmed the rest of his vehicles. Heavily damaged though they were, they fought back desperately. The flaming near-wreck of a hellhound charged into the new attackers. As they scrambled to get clear of the vehicle, they bunched together, just as another tank bore down on them with its heavy flamer.



But it was little use. They were being rushed at from every side. Enemy meltagunners charged forwards while the enemy assault specialists moved in with their power weapons and heavy shields.

As the last of the vehicles began to succumb to the overwhelming enemy attack, a few desperate guardsmen were all that was left.



The officer frantically bellowed orders as they were closed in on every side at once. The enemy appearing everywhere out of the flickering darkness. Rushing straight at them.

Against feeble gunfire, they made it in for the slaughter.



"Go!" Melchoir shouted. He could feel the jaws closing in around him. He had only one, desperate chance to make it out alive. He needed to attack. He needed to punch through, any possible way he could.

The remnants of the command squad rushed forward. Melchoir ordered the meltagunners to shoot apart the transport in front of them. Melta beams hissed through the air, leaving long, molten scars scratched across the side of the tank. Those inside attempted to fire back at them, but soon their ride was a total wreck. The enemy squad fired into the command squad as they piled out, gunning down the meltagunners and leaving Melchoir completely alone against their wall of storm bolters and bayonets.

But not completely alone. Melchoir could feel the hairs on the back of his neck stand on end. He glanced over his wounded shoulder towards the psyker. The sorcerer seemed filled with an inhuman power as he focused his mental energies. Seemingly oblivious to the officer, he began to charge forwards.

Storm bolter fire showered down on him, the explosive ammunition crashing into his body.

Miraculously, the psyker didn't even seem to notice, much less be effected by the lethal rounds. Without delay, Melchoir charged in after, catching up as they assaulted into the enemy.



It was almost impossible to see in the shadow of the wrecked vehicle. Moving shapes danced in front of him. He wildly swung his powerfist forward. It entered into a mass of flesh, causing gore to splash all over him and fling out into the air.

The sorcerer, imbued with mystical powers, ran his body into the combat knives of the enemy, embedding them in his flesh, and twisting to wrench the blades form his enemies hands. Raising his own power weapon he crashed it down into the nearest enemy soldier with the strength to smash a battle tank in half.



Melchoir reached out and grabbed something, maybe an arm, maybe a head. Whatever it was was painfully crushed by his powered gauntlet as the screams of the enemy filled the black air around him. The psyker next to him hit an enemy soldier with so much force that the flying splinters of his spine and rib cage blew through his comrades like shrapnel. The enemy, falling like wheat to the sickle in the indiscriminate swinging of their deadly weapons, broke in abject fear.

Melchoir and the psyker chased after them.



As they ran behind a ruined building, the shapes of the fleeing enemy danced between shadows and the flickering light. They were completely scattered.

The way out was clear.


***


"You are bleeding," the psyker said with a voice the could wilt a whole field of daffodils.

Melchoir looked down. He was.

Somewhere, at some time, he had been further wounded. That wasn't exactly at the top of his list of concerns. What was was that he was stuck, in the darkness, in the middle of a battle, with no troops, and no idea where he was. And he was hiding in a ruins with a witch.



And now he was bleeding.

At least the enemy hadn't found him yet. They must have assumed that they had killed off everything, or perhaps they had other orders to follow. They might not even be anywhere in the area anymore. Melchoir had little way of knowing.

"I have the power of healing," the psyker said.

"No," Melchoir blurted, the strength of his refusal catching even himself a little off guard. He took a moment to look at the sorcerer. Despite what the officer knew to be terrible wounds, he did actually seem more or less fine.

"I'll not have my flesh touched by witchcraft," he said, in a slightly more conciliatory tone.

"It already has been," the psyker spoke.

The thought made him churn slightly inside.

"And who is to say that this is even your flesh?" the witch finished.

For the briefest of moments, he almost wished it wasn't. He was in pain from everywhere all at once. He was actually a little surprised that he was still conscious. That he hadn't just collapsed in a heap.

He refocused his mind. He didn't have the time or energy to banter with a mutant. If only he had a way of making contact with someone.

Melchoir looked at the psyker again.

No, he couldn't.

"You are wondering what to do now, marshal?" came the reply, as if reading his thoughts, "I can not communicate with my mind, only to craft a physical form. If you wish, I can make you invincible, and we could walk to where we needed to go unharmed."

The officer winced in pain.

All around him, the sounds of battle echoed in the darkness.


***


This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2013/05/19 01:58:44


Your one-stop website for batreps, articles, and assorted goodies about the men of Folera: Foleran First Imperial Archives. Read Dakka's favorite narrative battle report series The Hand of the King. Also, check out my commission work, and my terrain.

Abstract Principles of 40k: Why game imbalance and list tailoring is good, and why tournaments are an absurd farce.

Read "The Geomides Affair", now on sale! No bolter porn. Not another inquisitor story. A book written by a dakkanought for dakkanoughts!
 
   
Made in gb
Long-Range Land Speeder Pilot





A small, damp hole somewhere in England

Another great narrative report, thanks!

Follow the White Scars Fifth Brotherhood as they fight in the Yarov sector - battle report #7 against Eldar here
   
Made in us
Fixture of Dakka





Ailaros wrote:
Coteaz

Henchmen - 2x joakero, 3x muiltimelta servitors
- razorback, TL Psycannon, searchlight
Henchmen - 8x crusaders, 3x DCA

Henchmen - 1x storm bolter, 3x storm bolter and melta, 7x psykers
- chimera
Henchmen - 1x storm bolter, 3x storm bolter and melta, 7x psykers
- chimera
Henchmen - 1x storm bolter, 3x storm bolter and melta, 7x psykers
- chimera


Commander - missile pod, fusion, targeting system, engram neurochip, gauntlet, iridium armor

Riptide - Ion, velocity tracker, TL fusion, early warning override

2x boadsides - HY missile pods, early warning overrides
Skyray - smart missiles, blacksun
Hammerhead - ion cannon, gun drones, blacksun

12x Firewarriors - shas'ui, blacksun
16x kroot - shaper, hound

Ailaros wrote:The huge pile of S10 Ap1 also gets thrown around,

All zero of their S10 Ap1 shots?

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2013/05/09 13:59:02


"'players must agree how they are going to select their armies, and if any restrictions apply to the number and type of models they can use."

This is an actual rule in the actual rulebook. Quit whining about how you can imagine someone's army touching you in a bad place and play by the actual rules.


Freelance Ontologist

When people ask, "What's the point in understanding everything?" they've just disqualified themselves from using questions and should disappear in a puff of paradox. But they don't understand and just continue existing, which are also their only two strategies for life. 
   
Made in us
Decrepit Dakkanaut





Vallejo, CA

There, fixed.


Your one-stop website for batreps, articles, and assorted goodies about the men of Folera: Foleran First Imperial Archives. Read Dakka's favorite narrative battle report series The Hand of the King. Also, check out my commission work, and my terrain.

Abstract Principles of 40k: Why game imbalance and list tailoring is good, and why tournaments are an absurd farce.

Read "The Geomides Affair", now on sale! No bolter porn. Not another inquisitor story. A book written by a dakkanought for dakkanoughts!
 
   
Made in us
Fixture of Dakka





Is 2 really a huge pile? Especially when one of them is S8 AP3?

You shouldn't let your bias confound facts.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2013/05/09 15:49:02


"'players must agree how they are going to select their armies, and if any restrictions apply to the number and type of models they can use."

This is an actual rule in the actual rulebook. Quit whining about how you can imagine someone's army touching you in a bad place and play by the actual rules.


Freelance Ontologist

When people ask, "What's the point in understanding everything?" they've just disqualified themselves from using questions and should disappear in a puff of paradox. But they don't understand and just continue existing, which are also their only two strategies for life. 
   
Made in us
Decrepit Dakkanaut





Vallejo, CA

I was referring to their whole army. I think you're missing the psykers. And nova charge on the riptides get themselves the ordnance rule.



Your one-stop website for batreps, articles, and assorted goodies about the men of Folera: Foleran First Imperial Archives. Read Dakka's favorite narrative battle report series The Hand of the King. Also, check out my commission work, and my terrain.

Abstract Principles of 40k: Why game imbalance and list tailoring is good, and why tournaments are an absurd farce.

Read "The Geomides Affair", now on sale! No bolter porn. Not another inquisitor story. A book written by a dakkanought for dakkanoughts!
 
   
Made in us
Been Around the Block






Ailaros why don't you take pictures of the battlefield in progress anymore? Your battle reports are my favorite, but lately the tactical part seems lacking as I have to kind of imagine where the units are.
   
Made in us
Mekboy Hammerin' Somethin'





 Unreg1stered wrote:
Ailaros why don't you take pictures of the battlefield in progress anymore? Your battle reports are my favorite, but lately the tactical part seems lacking as I have to kind of imagine where the units are.
He explained this awhile ago. The only meaningful movement in 40k is getting into range of your guns or getting in range of objectives. That's it. A report showing all the tiny minutia of movement is both time consuming, and in the end, rather less than useful for gaining any additional tactical insight. If you see the starting positions of the armies, you can generally tell where they'll go. They'll either move to an objective or move into range with their guns.

It's all rather self-explanatory, so in order to work more on the narrative part of his reports he chose to avoid doing a turn by turn movement analysis. I also imagine taking a picture at the end of every player turn would slow down the game immensely.
   
Made in us
Decrepit Dakkanaut





Vallejo, CA

I couldn't put it better myself.


Your one-stop website for batreps, articles, and assorted goodies about the men of Folera: Foleran First Imperial Archives. Read Dakka's favorite narrative battle report series The Hand of the King. Also, check out my commission work, and my terrain.

Abstract Principles of 40k: Why game imbalance and list tailoring is good, and why tournaments are an absurd farce.

Read "The Geomides Affair", now on sale! No bolter porn. Not another inquisitor story. A book written by a dakkanought for dakkanoughts!
 
   
Made in us
Terminator with Assault Cannon





 gpfunk wrote:
He explained this awhile ago. The only meaningful movement in 40k is getting into range of your guns or getting in range of objectives. That's it. A report showing all the tiny minutia of movement is both time consuming, and in the end, rather less than useful for gaining any additional tactical insight. If you see the starting positions of the armies, you can generally tell where they'll go. They'll either move to an objective or move into range with their guns.

It's all rather self-explanatory, so in order to work more on the narrative part of his reports he chose to avoid doing a turn by turn movement analysis. I also imagine taking a picture at the end of every player turn would slow down the game immensely.


Attitudes like this IMO cause people to hit a skill plateau early. There are huge amounts of subtlety to movement in 6th edition, and most experienced players will agree that "games are won or lost in the Movement phase." Because of this, noticing how people position their units and prepare their moves is probably one of the more important skills in the game.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2013/05/09 19:17:51


 
   
Made in us
Haemonculi Flesh Apprentice






 Kingsley wrote:
 gpfunk wrote:
He explained this awhile ago. The only meaningful movement in 40k is getting into range of your guns or getting in range of objectives. That's it. A report showing all the tiny minutia of movement is both time consuming, and in the end, rather less than useful for gaining any additional tactical insight. If you see the starting positions of the armies, you can generally tell where they'll go. They'll either move to an objective or move into range with their guns.

It's all rather self-explanatory, so in order to work more on the narrative part of his reports he chose to avoid doing a turn by turn movement analysis. I also imagine taking a picture at the end of every player turn would slow down the game immensely.


Attitudes like this IMO cause people to hit a skill plateau early. There are huge amounts of subtlety to movement in 6th edition, and most experienced players will agree that "games are won or lost in the Movement phase." Because of this, noticing how people position their units and prepare their moves is probably one of the more important skills in the game.


This is why some still use blob squads very effectively while others declare them dead.


   
Made in us
Decrepit Dakkanaut





Vallejo, CA

Other than moving units onto objectives, or moving guns into range/line of sight, or hiding them so that they can do one of those two things on a later turn is the entire utility of movement in this game. Claiming that 40k is secretly more complex, and those not in search of said indescribable ideals are bad players isn't terribly helpful. Creating a standard just so that you can judge other people by it seldom is.

Of course, if it's possible to win a game without moving onto an objective, or without having your guns in range (a fact which would be required for movement to be useful outside of these two things) then I'd be interested in hearing it, but I'd find it difficult to change my mind based on little more than hand waving, an appeal ad populum or an appeal to authority, or making references to games which aren't 40k.



Your one-stop website for batreps, articles, and assorted goodies about the men of Folera: Foleran First Imperial Archives. Read Dakka's favorite narrative battle report series The Hand of the King. Also, check out my commission work, and my terrain.

Abstract Principles of 40k: Why game imbalance and list tailoring is good, and why tournaments are an absurd farce.

Read "The Geomides Affair", now on sale! No bolter porn. Not another inquisitor story. A book written by a dakkanought for dakkanoughts!
 
   
Made in us
Haemonculi Flesh Apprentice






 Ailaros wrote:
Other than moving units onto objectives, or moving guns into range/line of sight, or hiding them so that they can do one of those two things on a later turn is the entire utility of movement in this game. Claiming that 40k is secretly more complex, and those not in search of said indescribable ideals are bad players isn't terribly helpful. Creating a standard just so that you can judge other people by it seldom is.

Of course, if it's possible to win a game without moving onto an objective, or without having your guns in range (a fact which would be required for movement to be useful outside of these two things) then I'd be interested in hearing it, but I'd find it difficult to change my mind based on little more than hand waving, an appeal ad populum or an appeal to authority, or making references to games which aren't 40k.




Moving squads members in preparation or in reaction to another players movements within your squad is why some units like grey hunters with a TDA WG pack leader are so terrifying when used by a skilled player. Obviously there becomes a point where even this reaches a "plateau" or skill ceiling and then its a matter of who slips up first or which die roll fails first but claiming that moving onto an objective or in range of weaponry is all that movement is useful for is, frankly, telling of your personal skill level in itself, no offense meant.

   
Made in us
Terminator with Assault Cannon





 Ailaros wrote:
Other than moving units onto objectives, or moving guns into range/line of sight, or hiding them so that they can do one of those two things on a later turn is the entire utility of movement in this game.


What about moving models out of line of sight so that you can snipe important enemy models (by only having line of sight to them) or protect your own? This is often combined with an attack-- if I deploy a Combat Squad of meltagunners from a Rhino, I typically hide one guy behind the Rhino to ensure that at least one model will live through normal enemy retaliation. However this too is contingent on situational factors-- if the enemy has lots of Blast weapons, this is not only not worth it to do but may increase the strength of their attacks.

What about moving models within a unit to ensure that you lose the right models first? Note that this is not always the normal guys, sometimes you want to lose Sarge first.

What about Tank Shocking the opponent into a formation where you score more blast or template hits? I notice that you actually did this in this game, so obviously you're aware of at least some of the subtleties here. Denying their existence only hurts people learning the game.

What about moving/Running in preparation for assault? The tradeoffs between Running and shooting are complex and not fully understood.

Further, "moving units onto objectives" is rather complex. What's the optimal position for an objective-claiming unit? Often it is not on top of the objective itself, but rather in a nearby position where it can easily move to claim if necessary while still exerting control on other elements of the board. This is of course dependent on both your army and their army, however, and assessing this is nontrivial.

There are obviously more examples than just these, but I think the point about the importance of movement has been pretty clearly made.
   
Made in us
Mekboy Hammerin' Somethin'





 Kingsley wrote:
Attitudes like this IMO cause people to hit a skill plateau early. There are huge amounts of subtlety to movement in 6th edition, and most experienced players will agree that "games are won or lost in the Movement phase." Because of this, noticing how people position their units and prepare their moves is probably one of the more important skills in the game.

We're back to this again? Games are indeed won and lost in the movement phase. The movement phase is either moving guns into range, moving onto an objective, or moving into cover away from enemy guns. There's no subtlety, there are variations on the same theme which could seem like subtlety, but it's not. Movement is very important, but now with 6th edition allowing you to premeasure at any point a lot of the skill was removed.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2013/05/09 19:49:34


 
   
Made in us
Decrepit Dakkanaut





Vallejo, CA

Red Corsair wrote:Moving squads members in preparation or in reaction to another players movements

What does this mean? How does a person react to another player's movement phase, and why does it matter?

As best I can tell, the only thing that moving in reaction to an opponent's units does for you is to get your guns into range (or deny the same from your opponent), or to move onto an objective. Concretely speaking, what else does it do?

Kingsley wrote:What about moving models within a unit to ensure that you lose the right models first? Note that this is not always the normal guys, sometimes you want to lose Sarge first.

What about Tank Shocking the opponent into a formation where you score more blast or template hits?

These are easy things, though, that don't need precise X and arrow diagrams to show.

Furthermore, losing a sarge or any other particular model in a certain order will never win you a game of 40k (unless there's a mission that requires it), and tank shocking into flamer piles is once again nothing more than a matter of making shooting more effective.

Kingsley wrote:What's the optimal position for an objective-claiming unit? Often it is not on top of the objective itself, but rather in a nearby position where it can easily move to claim if necessary while still exerting control on other elements of the board.

Which once again is a matter of killing stuff or going onto an objective. Furthermore, it's really not even that challenging. The optimal position to score on an objective is on the objective, with usually little benefit to arriving early, unless it's necessary to get your guns in range of dudes moving onto an objective.

And that's all just on the proper objective games. Movement is stupidly straightforward on Purge, Relic, and Will games. Half the time you barely need to bonk brain cells together with regards to movement in order to win a game of 40k, and the rest of the time it's not much more complicated. Certainly nothing that needs precise diagrams.

gpfunk wrote: now with 6th edition allowing you to premeasure at any point a lot of the skill was removed.

That too...

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2013/05/09 19:54:44


Your one-stop website for batreps, articles, and assorted goodies about the men of Folera: Foleran First Imperial Archives. Read Dakka's favorite narrative battle report series The Hand of the King. Also, check out my commission work, and my terrain.

Abstract Principles of 40k: Why game imbalance and list tailoring is good, and why tournaments are an absurd farce.

Read "The Geomides Affair", now on sale! No bolter porn. Not another inquisitor story. A book written by a dakkanought for dakkanoughts!
 
   
Made in us
Mekboy Hammerin' Somethin'





 Ailaros wrote:
I'd find it difficult to change my mind based on little more than hand waving, an appeal ad populum or an appeal to authority, or making references to games which aren't 40k.
You forgot using the word "Plateau" over and over and over again. And that's what it is. All the arguments are some variation on "Look I did this once, that means 40k is extremely deep in terms of skill involved." I don't want this to turn into another "Listbuilding vs Tactics" debate. Just talk about the battle report, kingsly. I was giving an answer to someone about why Ailairos doesn't do turn by turn pictures, it's his opinion and it's one I happen to agree with.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2013/05/09 19:55:45


 
   
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 Ailaros wrote:
Furthermore, losing a sarge or any other particular model in a certain order will never win you a game of 40k (unless there's a mission that requires it)


If I lose a meltagun instead of a bolter, that could lose me the game if I need to shoot a tank, lone character, etc. Similarly, if falling back is crucial (and I'm not playing Codex: Space Marines), losing my Sergeant/Exarch/Shas'ui first means that I have a better chance of doing what I want. If my opponent has the Warlord Trait that lets you get a VP for killing a character in a challenge, I might very well want to lose my Sergeants immediately so that there's no chance of getting shot down to one model and then being forced to accept a challenge.

 Ailaros wrote:
Kingsley wrote:What's the optimal position for an objective-claiming unit? Often it is not on top of the objective itself, but rather in a nearby position where it can easily move to claim if necessary while still exerting control on other elements of the board.

Which once again is a matter of killing stuff or going onto an objective. Furthermore, it's really not even that challenging. The optimal position to score on an objective is on the objective, with usually little benefit to arriving early, unless it's necessary to get your guns in range of dudes moving onto an objective.


That's again dependent on situational factors. You're dismissing a lot of important and relevant complexity. For instance against armies with Jetbikes, you want to make a ring around the objective to prevent them from moving+turbo-boosting to contest. Against armies that want to assault onto your objective, you often want to be 3" behind it to minimize the chance of them hitting that assault. However, note that many armies field more than one type of unit, and therefore the correct movement is contingent on you correctly reading the enemy battle plan and knowing what you need to be concerned about.

 Ailaros wrote:
And that's all just on the proper objective games. Movement is stupidly straightforward on Purge, Relic, and Will games. Half the time you barely need to bonk brain cells together with regards to movement in order to win a game of 40k, and the rest of the time it's not much more complicated. Certainly nothing that needs precise diagrams.


I'm not so sure. The Relic requires the most precise model positioning of any scenario. Purge the Alien greatly rewards tactics that hide one or two models to ensure a squad remains alive even if every model in line of sight is wiped out.

 Ailaros wrote:
gpfunk wrote: now with 6th edition allowing you to premeasure at any point a lot of the skill was removed.

That too...


IMO premeasuring actually increases skill because it removes a fake skill (mentally estimating distances on the table) and, in return, allows for a skilled player to perform complicated moves that were previously more or less impossible thanks to insufficient precision. Just as Guess weapons were silly, not being able to premeasure was basically a "new player tax" that also artificially brought down the skill cap by adding uncertainty to complex moves. Premeasuring also, in my experience, greatly decreases the number of arguments that are likely to occur.
   
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 Kingsley wrote:
Words and such.

Why don't you just play Warmachine? That game rewards skills in model movement far more than 40k. In fact, so much of the game is based on movement and positioning that it makes the 40k movement phase look like a ward for the mentally ill.
   
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As it was brought up I for one would also appreciate a few more shots for the tactical report. I think like two more shots, perhaps end of turn 3 and end of turn 5 would add a lot. At least for me it is hard to follow what Hellhound gets blown up, which one is still there etc. I often have to pull up the narrative side by side to puzzle things together.

That being said I respect the time you put into these reports as it is and I sure enjoy them in the current format!

   
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You can certainly do whatever you want to do Ailaros. They're your reports, and I enjoy them either way.

I don't personally agree with the negativity about movement. I take a lot of inspiration from your games, and your recent discovery of chimeras and hellhounds was about gaining more control and speed over the field. If the movement phase didn't matter, why did this extra speed matter?
   
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Kingsley wrote:If I lose a meltagun instead of a bolter, that could lose me the game if I need to shoot a tank, lone character, etc.

Which once again is a matter of killing stuff

Kingsley wrote:For instance against armies with Jetbikes, you want to make a ring around the objective to prevent them from moving+turbo-boosting to contest. Against armies that want to assault onto your objective, you often want to be 3" behind it to minimize the chance of them hitting that assault.

Sure, but these are easy tricks, and I don't see why I'd need complex diagrams to say that I did these things. After all, you just described them without a diagram.

Kingsley wrote:Premeasuring... allows for a skilled player to perform complicated moves...

To what end?

Killing stuff and getting onto objectives.

zoatl wrote:As it was brought up I for one would also appreciate a few more shots for the tactical report. I think like two more shots, perhaps end of turn 3 and end of turn 5 would add a lot. At least for me it is hard to follow what Hellhound gets blown up, which one is still there etc. I often have to pull up the narrative side by side to puzzle things together.

Well, part of the point of this style is to reduce confusion, not increase it.

Part of the problem with the old style is that it had a lot of detail - too much detail. Too much pointless detail. As such, the idea is to reduce the amount of pointless cluttering. Now, that doesn't necessarily mean that I've been successful of course. I'd ask what the point of knowing which hellhound died exactly when and where, given the overall direction of the game, but perhaps that's not my question to ask...

Unreg1stered wrote: If the movement phase didn't matter, why did this extra speed matter?

Because it puts different kinds of guns in different kinds of places.

Plus, I'm not arguing that the movement phase doesn't matter. Quite the contrary. What I'm arguing is that movement is straightforward and its effects obvious. There's no secret to it. There's no infinite depth of player skill.

Just because there's limits doesn't make everything up to that limit pointless.


This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2013/05/10 01:15:34


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Ha! I guess I'll just agree to disagree with this one since your arguments are yet again running in circles though their vagueness.

   
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Well, perhaps it was a poor example. This fight there was not that much movement going on, so it was pretty straight forward to follow.

To give a concrete example, in your last report (#45) the game had more fliers and was more confusing. The discussion on your options starting turn 5 was really interesting, but I must admit that at this point I was kind of lost. As I had no clear vision of the table and I could "only" accept your statements as truth. A shot showing the start of turn 5 would have been a great improvement for me as it would have allowed me to assess the situation easily and probably learn something in the process.

Don't get me wrong, I think you are doing a great job already! I'm just giving reader feed-back for you to use as you please!

   
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Redacted by me.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2013/05/10 18:25:33


 
   
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 gpfunk wrote:
 Unreg1stered wrote:
I also imagine taking a picture at the end of every player turn would slow down the game immensely.


Really, taking a quick shot of the whole table at the end of each turn would slow the game "IMMENSELY"? Seems to me that it would take but a few seconds ...

But as others said, they're Ailaros' reports so he can do whatever the heck he wants with them. I, for one, found them must more interesting and useful in the old format. I don't ask or suggest that you (Ailaros) go through all the trouble of drawing all the lines and showing which units were killed -- I understand that THAT must have taken a LOT of time. But in the tactical overview, just a quick snapshot showing the whole board at the end of each turn would be greatly appreciated by me -- and apparently others.

Do it or not, it's up to you, just know that several of us would get more out of the reports for whatever reason.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2013/05/10 19:56:38


   
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Question for you Ailaros: Seems to me that more and more debates are happening at your battle reports, does this make you feel more negative about your feedback or positive cause some real deep tactical people are debating with you about your gameplay/game views?

I sometimes enjoy reading these debates but can't help but wonder what it does to the moral of the report poster

Check out my little ork story I am working on here!

http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/632365.page

 
   
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NWansbutter wrote:Do it or not, it's up to you, just know that several of us would get more out of the reports for whatever reason.

Well, and you're right, of course. If I only wanted to write battle reports for purely my own gratification, I wouldn't bother posting them for other people to read, now would I? If enjoyment of others is the purpose of sharing creative content, then it does me only so much good to deride what others want to consume in the way they wish to consume it, regardless of personal sentiment.

In any case, I'll be wrapping up this particular series of battle reports soon for a variety of reasons. Perhaps I'll go back to the diagrams for the next series.

Ecstasy in Service wrote:does this make you feel more negative about your feedback or positive cause some real deep tactical people are debating with you about your gameplay/game views?

I sometimes enjoy reading these debates but can't help but wonder what it does to the moral of the report poster

Honestly, I'm just happy that it bumps my report back towards the top of the stack. For some strange reason, I get sucked in to seeing how many people read my battle reports, and I'd much rather there be something contentious if it means people actually notice and read it.

Otherwise, no, it doesn't bother me. I see the battle reports forum as providing, on the one hand pretty pictures and a decent narrative, but on the other hand some actual concrete examples of things. Not real data, of course, but it's nice to see things in action sometimes. Plus, it gets the creative juices flowing, in any case.

I like to think of them as somewhat of a laboratory, and anything I can do to help the process is... well... helpful.



Your one-stop website for batreps, articles, and assorted goodies about the men of Folera: Foleran First Imperial Archives. Read Dakka's favorite narrative battle report series The Hand of the King. Also, check out my commission work, and my terrain.

Abstract Principles of 40k: Why game imbalance and list tailoring is good, and why tournaments are an absurd farce.

Read "The Geomides Affair", now on sale! No bolter porn. Not another inquisitor story. A book written by a dakkanought for dakkanoughts!
 
   
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 NWansbutter wrote:
Really, taking a quick shot of the whole table at the end of each turn would slow the game "IMMENSELY"? Seems to me that it would take but a few seconds ...

You'll have to excuse me, I forgot that every internet conversation comes down to an argument over semantics.

Immensely may have been too strong a word. But the way I see it is that if you're free handing a camera and don't have access to a stable platform that gives you a decent shot of the field then you are more likely going to have one or two shots that come out too fuzzy to be useful. That may happen every turn depending on the kind of camera you have. Sometimes you have to get a game done speedily. If there are people waiting on the table, if the store is closing soon, if your opponent is on a specific time frame are all examples of this. In that situation taking pictures, even if it is only at the end of every round, would consume enough time to be noticeable. It might create an air of annoyance as your opponent that has to be somewhere at 4:30 waits for you to perfect your picture of the battlefield. If you try to do a shot "quickly" it will most likely not be "good" unless you have a very high end, auto-focusing camera.

There are many reasons why taking pictures would slow down a game to a point where it would become an issue. Even if the shots are "quick" and only at the end of turns.

You may say the process would be inconvenient to both parties involved in the game. You could also say the process may be bothersome in the net time it consumes. I might say that the process would become tiresome for Ailaros, considering his beliefs about movement, that I happen to share, in the game of 40k.

I guess using hyperbole for the sake of example has gone out of style.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
 Ailaros wrote:

Honestly, I'm just happy that it bumps my report back towards the top of the stack. For some strange reason, I get sucked in to seeing how many people read my battle reports, and I'd much rather there be something contentious if it means people actually notice and read it.

Otherwise, no, it doesn't bother me. I see the battle reports forum as providing, on the one hand pretty pictures and a decent narrative, but on the other hand some actual concrete examples of things. Not real data, of course, but it's nice to see things in action sometimes. Plus, it gets the creative juices flowing, in any case.

I like to think of them as somewhat of a laboratory, and anything I can do to help the process is... well... helpful.
That's comforting to hear! I actually substitue your battle reports for a morning paper on hard days at work. When i'm feeling real low or tired i'll read the most recent report you've done with my coffee and it always seems to put me in the right mood. Maybe it's because I am an Ork at heart and love seeing and reading about little plastic men blowing each other up.

This message was edited 3 times. Last update was at 2013/05/10 23:11:08


 
   
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Loving the storytelling, very skilfully written

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Blacksails wrote:Maybe you should read your own posts before calling someone else's juvenile.
 
   
 
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