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To parrot Sasori's IA12 thread regarding the Necrons, I made this one regarding the new DKoK Assault Brigade list.

I've just spent the last couple hours reading my copy which fortuitously was sitting on my table as I walked in the door There's some definitely awesome stuff and some duds.


Army Special Rules:

An interesting feature of the Assault Brigade list is the Forlorn Hope rule. It has two parts, and they kick in if playing a 1500pt or higher game. The first part, Unstoppable Advance, says that if an Infantry Platoon is wiped out, you bring the whole damn thing right back on from ongoing reserves. Kinda silly, but I don't think we'll be seeing a whole lot of Platoons with this list but certainly very powerful (though you do have to entirely wipe out the platoon for it to kick in). The second part is the Assault Objective. Basically it's an extra objective where if the DKoK player holds it at the end of the game, they get 2 bonus VP's, and if they don't hold it (note: the enemy needn't hold/contest it for this part, the DKoK player just needs to not be in control of it) you lose 1 VP.

Most importantly is the change from Die-Hards to Death Korps as an army wide special rule. Die Hards meant they never took negative modifiers to Ld for losing CC and got WS4, while the new Death Korps rule still gives them WS4 it also means they give 0 feths about 25% casualty tests against shooting, they ignore it. Way more useful, especially on artillery/heavy weapons units.

Iron Discipline is still in there and does largely the same thing, if within 6" of a DKoK officer, regardless of other conditions (e.g. below 25%) the unit can attempt to regroup.

Orders:

The orders are a bit different. The command HQ gets 3 orders, Duty unto Death, Bring it Down (no change except it lists Flying MC's distinctly), and Get Back in the Fight (no change). Duty unto Death means if they pass the order, the unit rerolls all failed Ld tests until the next shooting phase, double 1's resulting in the unit becoming Fearless.

The platoon command squad gets FRFSRF (no change) Dispersed Advance (instead of RunRunRun they get Move through Cover the next turn, interesting but not as useful I think) and the last order is Without Mercy which makes Lasguns and Laspistols Assault 2 12" and gives the unit the Crusader USR.

Wargear:

When it comes to wargear, there's not a huge mess of differences. Acid Gas grenades are a change from the old Gas grenades, they now are a poisoned 4+ small blast that ignores cover, and no longer boost the Engineers to I10 on their first charge of the game. Carcass shells are...interesting. For Shotguns they impart the Shred and Gets Hot special rule, not sure how useful that is but they cost almost nothing for an engineer unit. Now, on Heavy Mortar/Griffon batteries, these things get...silly, for two reasons. First, you can take Griffons as Elites and Heavy Mortars as HS, meaning up to EDIT: 21 light Ordnance guns in one FoC. The Carcass shells for these reduce the Strength by 1 and imparts Gets Hot! to the weapon, however, it also imparts Ignores Cover and Shred. May the Emperor have mercy on any army facing that.

There's some new Standards/Icons the command units can take, one gives an extra VP if that units is killed in an assault, one gives Hatred CSM's, Daemons, Psykers and Renegades/Heretics to all DKoK units within 12", and the last one gives +1T for the unit the bears it.

The Mole Launcher no longer takes an additional turn to reach its target and is the first weapon I can recall with the Strikedown special rule.

Warlord Traits:

The Warlord Traits table is interesting, not quite as good as the Dark Harvest list but much better than the Armored Battlegroup list of the last IA book
1: Warlord and nearby DKoK units add +1 to charge distance
2: Pick a single ordnance weapon within 6" of the Warlord, it's TL'd for that turn.
3: Fearless and FNP 6+ near objectives.
4: May use Nightfight turn 1
5: Warlord and close by units get Preferred Enemy Infantry if in enemy deployment zone
6: Reduce cover save of 1 terrain object by 1 (e.g. 4+ becomes a 5+, 6+ cover negated), cannot be used on purchased fortifications.

As to the list itself:

HQ:
This is the primary letdown spot of the book. For some reason FW saw fit to double the price of the basic HQ command squad and limit the number of special weapons in the unit to 2, for no good reason really, but does come with a Regimental Standard base. The SC Venner, while on paper looking cool (nearby units get to use his Ld10 and additional D3 hits in challenges) he costs more than a kitted SM captain and the lack of 25% morale tests for the army (on top of Iron Discipline, Get Back in the Fight and Death unto Duty) make it much less useful. The Quartermaster Revenant is less useful and nearly double the cost of its previous incarnation. Quartermaster squad has Medipack and gives nearby units FNP 6+

The Artillerist advisor is similar to the MoO in the basic HQ command squad except does D3 Griffon shots instead of a single Basilisk shot. The techpriest almost looks useful as an HQ command attachement, being cheaper than otherwise and able to restore HP's and allow a single chosen weapon nearby to add +1 to Armor Pen rolls. Quartermaster Advisor brings a Medipack to the squad.


Elites:

Engineers: These guys got way better. They still won't blow the pants of anyone but they're solidly costed now. They are basically shotgun toting vets with the above mentioned Acid Gas grenades. They don't have a whole lot of options, one special weapon, carcass shells are cheap, and a Heavy Flamer or Mole Launcher. The big thing here is that they're cheap and effective carapace guardsmen. They can take a Centaur if 5 strong, a Storm Chimera or a Hades Drill

Griffon: It's an elite unit in this list, which I fear will make it really open to abuse given that it's no longer competing for HS slots and you can take the same ordnance weapon in HS too.

Leman Russ Forward Command Tank: basically it's a Leman Russ tank (or variant) that pays almost as much as a Terminator over base price to increase its BS and can be used to draw LoS for any unit in the same primary detachment with a Barrage weapon.

Hydras: Yes, they're Elites also, I don't think they're too bad here though relative to the Griffon.

Rapier Laser Destroyers: Largely unchanged, slightly more expensive than they used to be but get the DK and ID rules


Troops:

Infantry Platoon:
Largely the same as a basic IG platoon except it only can take the platoon command squad, and 2-6 infantry squads, no heavy weapons, only two special weapons in PCS. Both PCS and IS are notably more expensive than codex equivalents, the PCS costs as much as a Codex CCS and the IS as much as a Vet squad. I assume it's to cover the DKoK, ID and Unstoppable Advance. I don't expect this formation will be used much.

Grenadiers: Ah-HA! Here's where it gets good. Stormtroopers as Troops with the DK and ID rules (though no Special Operations), and a 10man squad costs as much as a Devil Dog. I can imagine many armies being built very solidly around these guys as troops now that they're sanely costed, however the only transport is the Storm Chimera. They finally get Plasma Guns!

Transports:

Storm Chimera: Chimera with AC, EA, and Track Guards, costs as much as a Hydra. Not really a good buy in 6th, but basically gets the Track Guards for free.

Centaur: Pretty much the same as it ever was, largely worthless, especially at 2HP

Hades: Still largely worthless following its IA:1 Update revision, still a transport option for Engineers.


Fast Attack:

Hellhounds/Variants: As normal

Death Rider Platoon: This is an interesting formation, composed of up to 1 DR Command Squad (but not necessary to take, can include mounted Commissar) and 1-6 Death Rider squads. 1pt Cheaper than they used to be, now with Carapace Armor and an extra base attack on each model. *Very* cool now.

Salamanders: As normal



Heavy Support:


HW Platoon: 1-3 HWS's, get DK, ID Special Rules and Frag/Krak grenades for same base cost as HWS's in C:IG. no ML but have a TL Heavy Stubber option for same cost as Heavy Bolter, Lascannons cheaper than C:IG. Between the DK rule and the cheaper Lascannon costs, this may be a fearsome choice.

Thunderer Squad: As Normal

Leman Russ Squad: As Normal

Ordnance Battery: As Normal except Griffons are Elites

Field Artillery: This is where the Heavy Mortars/Quad Launcher Thudd Guns go. A tad more expensive than they were, but otherwise get the DK and ID rules and remain as they were in IA:1 Update

Imperial Navy Air Support Squadron:
Squadron of 1-3 Flyers consisting of any combination of Thunderbolt, Lightning, or Avenger.





Overall this is the list I've been jank-playing since 2006 anyway (bought a ton of DKoK Grenadiers to run as a Stormtrooper Company back then when the DKoK first came out, started out first using the old 3.5E IG book with the Grenadiers doctrine, then Carapace Vets with the current IG codex), and I'm thrilled it seems largely useable. There's some duds, the Centaur and pretty much the entirety of the HQ section along with the Hades, but overall the list seems *really* good and a very interesting option for an "elite" mechanized IG force, and many longstanding DKoK units with ace models but crap rules (Grenadiers/Death Riders) are now very solid for gaming as well.

Anyway, that's my summary and personal subjective take on the list. What do you all think?

I'm glad to see an experienced IG players take on it. I couldn't make too much out of it, as I don't play it.

The griffon battery sounds pretty deadly with the carcass shells. I'll have to keep that in mind for sure!

Thanks for the summary, that was excellent. I'll post again once I have digested all that.

I don't have my copy yet, so this is going to be based on second-hand information.

 Vaktathi wrote:
It has two parts, and they kick in if playing a 1500pt or higher game.

This is pretty disappointing. Sounds like you're paying for the abilities in the base cost of the unit, but you don't get the benefit unless you play at 1500 points or higher. I guess you won't be taking platoons in a small game with this list.

On the good side, it seems like there's a lot of potential to force no-win situations on your opponents. Say you have a PCS sitting on an objective, while the infantry squads have been destroyed (as meatshield squads tend to be). Now your opponent has a difficult choice between letting the PCS stay on the objective or killing it and trying to deal with an entire respawning platoon.

Most importantly is the change from Die-Hards to Death Korps as an army wide special rule. Die Hards meant they never took negative modifiers to Ld for losing CC and got WS4, while the new Death Korps rule still gives them WS4 it also means they give 0 feths about 25% casualty tests against shooting, they ignore it. Way more useful, especially on artillery/heavy weapons units.

This is really interesting. It's decent in this list, but it's going to be really good if it carries over to the siege army list where you have those earthshaker guns and their awkward combination of LD 7 and losing the whole unit if you fail a morale check. Now that's all fixed and you can spam heavy artillery without any morale issues.

For some reason FW saw fit to double the price of the basic HQ command squad and limit the number of special weapons in the unit to 2, for no good reason really, but does come with a Regimental Standard base.

This is why. Cost doubles because you get the standard and DKoK special rules included in the base price.

And two specials is expected, FW apparently doesn't think it's "fluffy" to have four specials and no "command" upgrades in a command squad. TBH I'm just glad you even get two of them instead of just one like the IA5 list.

Engineers: These guys got way better. They still won't blow the pants of anyone but they're solidly costed now. They are basically shotgun toting vets with the above mentioned Acid Gas grenades. They don't have a whole lot of options, one special weapon, carcass shells are cheap, and a Heavy Flamer or Mole Launcher. The big thing here is that they're cheap and effective carapace guardsmen. They can take a Centaur if 5 strong, a Storm Chimera or a Hades Drill

Too bad they're not scoring. Still, you can take them as 5-man squads (effectively giving you two special weapons in a full-size squad and negating that annoyance) and throw strikedown shots to restrict enemy movement.

Grenadiers: Ah-HA! Here's where it gets good. Stormtroopers as Troops with the DK and ID rules (though no Special Operations), and a 10man squad costs as much as a Devil Dog. I can imagine many armies being built very solidly around these guys as troops now that they're sanely costed, however the only transport is the Storm Chimera. They finally get Plasma Guns!

This is going to make or break the list. If you're making good use of your 'stormtrooper' troops (and we all know how popular a request that is) you're probably going to enjoy the list and all of its weird choices. If you're not you're going to be better off with a codex list (or even one of the other FW variants).

Centaur: Pretty much the same as it ever was, largely worthless, especially at 2HP

Actually I think the Centaur is a really powerful unit. Yes, it's fragile if it gets shot at, but it is a TINY model. You can hide it behind pretty much anything, cover is almost automatic and a Chimera/LRBT can keep it complete out of LOS. The fact that it's open-topped is just a nice bonus.

Unstoppable advance sounds like an incredibly fun rule. It's like Send in the Next Wave, except the next wave you send in are hardened DKoK rather than crap-tastic conscripts.

Sounds cool, and I like the idea of a stormtrooper list, or the mass charging Guard list, though it sounds like that option might be a little overpriced.

So, I suppose the question is now, what happens to the siege list?

 MajorStoffer wrote:
So, I suppose the question is now, what happens to the siege list?

It's getting a pdf update, eventually. FW have been promising one (along with Elysians and the other variant lists) since about a week after 6th edition, and the whole time it's been "coming soon, really, we promise". At this point it's probably best to just assume that "soon" is a lie, but someday they'll stop being lazy and get it done.

Peregrine! You need to stop being so reasonable because I have been agreeing with you a dangerous amount and will have to stop posting if I can't add anything.

After thinking back and forth a bit I think I really like this list.

1500+ pts games are going to need movement trays but they will be spectacular when I throw a platoon at the enemy and then lay down the griffon MoO shots all over the enemy full expecting to kill my own guys with the scatter. In fact all of the gets hot stuff will be great on them as you will effectively want to kill off one of your own platoons every game to claim home objectives. It is probably a good thing the abilities only kick in at 1500+ as if you played a 500 pt game with it would be dominating.

+50 pts for the standard and DKoK rules? Well the 25% casualty rule is really good for that unit admittedly and it sounds like they have some good advisers to take.

The engineer squads actually sound like a nice squad worth taking and I can finally use my mole launcher for something. With a few command tanks around the field it sounds like I can hide them and still do some real damage. Grenadiers scoring more than makes up for this I just hope they stay scoring in the siege list.

I agree I love the centaur both model and rules. It is the ultimate looks bad on paper until you realize you can completely shield them behind a thunderer tank or really any vehicle you happened to bring. Who needs HP when the enemy can never see you. I even like how they hull mount the heavy weapon the squad brings as mortars and lascannons turn into shoot as you move.

I wish they would have allowed an option to take grenadiers as a 5 man squad in a centaur. I would have much preferred the option.

Can I ask who all gets carcass shells? Just engineers and griffon/heavy mortar?

The HWS sound interesting actually. With the addition of the command tanks you can actually take a huge number of mortars and pink away with them with good accuracy. Without the 25% casualty rule they are much more survivable.

I am really digging the Death Rider Platoon as I can finally field my Death Rider commissar model. Now if I just had more than 6 Death Rider models...

I think there will be two takers for this list meat grinder 1500+ SitNW style platoons for semi-sadistic players (which I am one) and storm trooper mech vet lists (which I also like). Either way this is a really nice addition to the 40K with some unique options.

The Warlord Traits table looks like a great table and I cannot honestly see any reason to take the book table over it. I do not see a single ability on it that is not useful for this army. Looks like someone actually wrote that table after looking at the army list rather than picking random abilities.

As a side note can anyone think of a weapon with the strikedown special rule other than the mole launcher? I cannot.

Sasori wrote:
The griffon battery sounds pretty deadly with the carcass shells. I'll have to keep that in mind for sure!

Yeah...they seem breakable

Peregrine wrote:
This is pretty disappointing. Sounds like you're paying for the abilities in the base cost of the unit, but you don't get the benefit unless you play at 1500 points or higher. I guess you won't be taking platoons in a small game with this list.

Not if you plan on using Platoons. You can make pretty decent lists if you're going to run a Grenadier company however.

On the good side, it seems like there's a lot of potential to force no-win situations on your opponents. Say you have a PCS sitting on an objective, while the infantry squads have been destroyed (as meatshield squads tend to be). Now your opponent has a difficult choice between letting the PCS stay on the objective or killing it and trying to deal with an entire respawning platoon.

Yup, lots of potential for infuriating opponents with that one, though for their cost and limited weapons availability, I'd say it's probably ok

This is really interesting. It's decent in this list, but it's going to be really good if it carries over to the siege army list where you have those earthshaker guns and their awkward combination of LD 7 and losing the whole unit if you fail a morale check. Now that's all fixed and you can spam heavy artillery without any morale issues.

Indeed, this rule is a game changer for many units, artillery, 5man squads, HWS's, etc.

This is why. Cost doubles because you get the standard and DKoK special rules included in the base price.

That could be I guess, though it's odd that some units pay for the DKoK upgrades (5pts per artillery gun for example), some units pay out the butt for the DKoK upgrades (command and infantry squads), and some don't pay squat

And two specials is expected, FW apparently doesn't think it's "fluffy" to have four specials and no "command" upgrades in a command squad. TBH I'm just glad you even get two of them instead of just one like the IA5 list.

Yeah, very odd. They did the same thing with the Elysian list IIRC and limited the Vets with the Hades drill in the IA1 update to 2 specials.

Too bad they're not scoring. Still, you can take them as 5-man squads (effectively giving you two special weapons in a full-size squad and negating that annoyance) and throw strikedown shots to restrict enemy movement.

The mole launcher actually seems useful now, and for 200pts having 20 WS4 BS4 4+sv guardsmen with Shredding shotguns seems actually potentiall useful.

This is going to make or break the list. If you're making good use of your 'stormtrooper' troops (and we all know how popular a request that is) you're probably going to enjoy the list and all of its weird choices. If you're not you're going to be better off with a codex list (or even one of the other FW variants).

That's what I'm thinking, unless you're playing a high points-but-not-quite-apocalypse game where you take lots of minimum sized Platoons to feed into an opponents guns and replenish.

Actually I think the Centaur is a really powerful unit. Yes, it's fragile if it gets shot at, but it is a TINY model. You can hide it behind pretty much anything, cover is almost automatic and a Chimera/LRBT can keep it complete out of LOS. The fact that it's open-topped is just a nice bonus.

Never really thought of it that way, though I've never seen them used much, they always seemed to get at least some LoS to them and put enough S5/6 fire into it to make it stop doing useful things when I've seen them used

gpfunk wrote:Unstoppable advance sounds like an incredibly fun rule. It's like Send in the Next Wave, except the next wave you send in are hardened DKoK rather than crap-tastic conscripts.

Yeah, the only downside is your opponent has to actually destroy them, the Conscripts you can choose to just remove and bring back on.

ansacs wrote:
I wish they would have allowed an option to take grenadiers as a 5 man squad in a centaur. I would have much preferred the option.

It is weird that it's not even an option. I was puzzled about that too, but given that the Grenadiers are actually solid units now otherwise I'm willing to overlook it

Can I ask who all gets carcass shells? Just engineers and griffon/heavy mortar?

Just those.

The HWS sound interesting actually. With the addition of the command tanks you can actually take a huge number of mortars and pink away with them with good accuracy. Without the 25% casualty rule they are much more survivable.

Yeah, the ability to ignore the 25% morale tests is *huge* for them, I'm also liking that their lascannons are sanely priced.

As a side note can anyone think of a weapon with the strikedown special rule other than the mole launcher? I cannot.

I haven't been able to find one yet



Also, I forgot to note, in games using the Zone Mortalis special rules, Engineers can be taken as troops, and the crewmen for Rapier Laser Destroyers are Engineers too for some reason.

Strikedown is on the C:SM Stormraven missiles

Thanks for all the info on the book there guys, I'm waiting to complete my FW "to order list" to reach the 250L mark
Seems I'll be needing a lot more DKoK than what I already have ...

Wait...multiple squadrons of multiple avengers each? Aww

hrm.. didn't know that IA 15 had DKoK! I shall have to go buy that book now. Been a big fan of them for a while now since Varks and I'm glad they are back. (now just need to get an update for my steel legion and I'd be one happy gas mask toting trooper)

Can you still take saber defense platforms with the new DKoK lists? And if so, would they also have to be wiped out to get a new set to come in? (also how would that even be played as the guns are supposed to be immobile, do you come in on your board edge and just sit there?)

 sudojoe wrote:
Can you still take saber defense platforms with the new DKoK lists? And if so, would they also have to be wiped out to get a new set to come in? (also how would that even be played as the guns are supposed to be immobile, do you come in on your board edge and just sit there?)

I assume you can't. Sabres can only be bought for codex IG, as far as I know. As for them coming on from reserve, immobile units have to deepstrike when they come on.

 sudojoe wrote:
hrm.. didn't know that IA 15 had DKoK! I shall have to go buy that book now. Been a big fan of them for a while now since Varks and I'm glad they are back. (now just need to get an update for my steel legion and I'd be one happy gas mask toting trooper)

IA 5 is Vraks tho, and googling Krieg PDF will give you all the rules for the Siege Regiment.

So I just had a realization. The combination of the 25% casualties /= moral check and the loss of pseudo stubborn mean that I am almost assured to close a platoon within firing range, I have a good change to assault turn 3-4, and then I am almost assured to loose said assault due to morale turn 4-5 leaving me most like swept. If I can manage to get the entire platoon to do this I will then have a new platoon almost every turn 5 I play.

Now here is the really ridiculous question do the platoons get access to any transport options?(this could get broken)

They do not have transports. Technically they don't have the Combined Squads rule either, not sure if that's an oversight or not.

How are avenger in your experience? On my end every time I see one I cringe because it's going to be killing a monstrous creature at least once every turn, but I want to hear it from a user of the bloody things.

 Kain wrote:
How are avenger in your experience? On my end every time I see one I cringe because it's going to be killing a monstrous creature at least once every turn, but I want to hear it from a user of the bloody things.

Obviously haven't used it in this list yet, but in my codex list it's been pretty effective. It's kind of a middle ground between the Vulture and Vendetta: more volume of fire than the Vendetta for dealing with infantry targets, and not limited to rear armor against vehicles and utterly useless against MCs/artillery like the (punisher cannon) Vulture. I don't think I'd take one as a first or second flyer in a list, but I'm very happy to add one to a list once I've got 1-2 of the gunships.

And of course in this list where you're limited to a single allied Vulture or Vendetta it's definitely worth considering.

 Peregrine wrote:

 Kain wrote:
How are avenger in your experience? On my end every time I see one I cringe because it's going to be killing a monstrous creature at least once every turn, but I want to hear it from a user of the bloody things.

Obviously haven't used it in this list yet, but in my codex list it's been pretty effective. It's kind of a middle ground between the Vulture and Vendetta: more volume of fire than the Vendetta for dealing with infantry targets, and not limited to rear armor against vehicles and utterly useless against MCs/artillery like the (punisher cannon) Vulture. I don't think I'd take one as a first or second flyer in a list, but I'm very happy to add one to a list once I've got 1-2 of the gunships.

And of course in this list where you're limited to a single allied Vulture or Vendetta it's definitely worth considering.

I also find it to be an annoyingly hardy flier. Thank goodness it doesn't have rending or else it's cannon would be as slaughtertastic against tanks and heavy targets as the real world GAU-8 avenger. It already butchers any high end model I can field short of an armored shell tyrant or tyrannofex with ridiculous ease. It's pretty much a huge middle finger to T6 3+ MCs with that gatling cannon it has, the lascannons it can take are just icing on the cake.

The Avenger only has 2HP though and side AV10 though. The gun is sweet, but man does that thing go down quick.

I know I really, really want an avenger. I always thought it'd be hard to find a suitable role for it, but now you mention it, killing MC's is right on the money. it seems the cannon just doesn't seem powerful enough to take on armoured targets.

Note, the CC squad has all 6 orders.

and another note, Verner is an IC! Yes, he can detach and go play around with other groups. Very useful considering that LD10 bubble and stubborn can make most of your army able to ignore ld entirely. Sticking him with heavy arty from the siege reg is just funny since he is T7 and can keep the arty crew in the fight for a long time if they decide to assault. Also, LD10 orders ftw.

Honestly, i had hoped this codex would re-write the older book entirely. As it is, im going to run it with allied Siege reg. A few things like the CC cost and the Quartermaster nerf are a bit wtf, but the 1/3 reduction in grenadeer cost and now troops makes that forgivable. Inf platoons should still be 60 points. It was already tough paying 10 points more than IG, 20 points is WAY too much, even with Fornlorn Hope. Also with the restriction on being the "attacker" makes it so that rule will never be used in tourney play.

Loss of Combined Squad on the HWT teams hurt. I LOVED using those in the siege regiment for voxes and ablative wounds in HWT.

1850
--Assault Regement--

Verner

Command Executioner Russ
Gryphon Mortar

10 Grenadeers 2x plasma
10 Grenadeers 2x plasma
10 Grenadeers 2x plasma


Thudd Gun +crew
Thudd Gun +crew

Aegis Defense Line quad gun

--Siege Regement--

Quartermaster

thudd gun

PC 2x flamers
PIS
PIS
3x Lascannons
3x Lascannons

2x Medusa artillery +3 crew

while I really like arty, what do you guys usually do about all the fliers out there? I've tried a mock battle with a standard necron list with wraiths + night scythes + doom scythe and annhiliation barges and got pretty beat up (also didn't help that I kept scattering off the wraithstar...)

(the necron list only has 3 fliers but was really devestating to my backfield.)

Some thoughts now that I have the book:

The special character is not bad. Unlike most IG HQ options he's an independent character and not tied to his useless command squad, so you can put him in a nice squad of meatshield infantry if you want. Also, his point cost seems high, but it includes the cost of the command squad so he's actually cheaper than the codex characters (if arguably less useful).

The extra objective is optional. You MAY use it in games of 1500 points or more, it's not mandatory. If you aren't making good use of the respawning platoons in your list you can just ignore it, and you can even wait until you're about to set up before committing to your choice (for example, in a tournament you can use it against some army types but not others).

Storm Chimeras only have two fire points. Not exactly surprising (and a hint for the next codex?), but something to keep in mind. It's possibly an argument for foot grenadiers instead of mech.

Death riders are awesome. The extra attack is offset by the lance being a specialist weapon (until FW and GW agree on how it should work, I wouldn't be surprised if codex lances become specialist weapons since they used to not gain the bonus attack for double CCW) and they cost 50% more than codex rough riders, but WS 4, 4+ save, 6+ FNP, and two wounds. Rough riders are MUCH more durable now, and you actually have a decent chance of getting them to a target without the whole unit getting massacred by bolter fire.

Flyers are better. The Thunderbolt is now 20 points cheaper, which is still overpriced compared to the Vendetta but at least somewhat more reasonable than they used to be. Hopefully this carries over to future versions of the unit, not just the DKoK list. Also, not that it matters since it's still terrible, but the Lightning now gets four extra bombs instead of two if it gives up the autocannon, for a total of ten if you take the wing bombs as well. Combined with (finally) the explicit rule that you can drop them all at once that's a lot of hits if you can set up a good bombing run before your AV 10 2 HP paper airplane is shot down.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 sudojoe wrote:
while I really like arty, what do you guys usually do about all the fliers out there? I've tried a mock battle with a standard necron list with wraiths + night scythes + doom scythe and annhiliation barges and got pretty beat up (also didn't help that I kept scattering off the wraithstar...)

Allies, probably. Hydras aren't great, but ally in a Sabre platoon and Vendetta/Vulture and consider taking an Avenger or Thunderbolt in your heavy support slots and you should be able to handle AA.

I totally didn't notice that Death Riders had 2 wounds. I'm not sure if that's intended, that seems odd, but as of right now that's what's printed. Don't know if that'll survive an FAQ, but otherwise...hilarity.

As to the Storm Chimera and foot Grenadiers, I think the price of the Storm Chimera and the 6E vehicle/transport rules kill off any of the attractiveness of the transport more than the fire points, I'd very much expect foot Grenadiers to be the standard.


Good catch on the extra objective, just noticed that myself last night.

 Vaktathi wrote:
I totally didn't notice that Death Riders had 2 wounds. I'm not sure if that's intended, that seems odd, but as of right now that's what's printed. Don't know if that'll survive an FAQ, but otherwise...hilarity.

I think it's reasonable. As-printed they're a balanced and appealing unit, and it fits the theme that DKoK rough riders are more durable than codex ones (at a 50% higher point cost, of course). I guess it could be a typo, but I don't see any reason to believe that it must be one.

My main reasoning is that I can't think of a unit with that much speed, potential hitting power, morale fortification, and resiliency at anything near that price

I mean, I can hope that's intended, it just looks...off to me.

 Vaktathi wrote:
My main reasoning is that I can't think of a unit with that much speed, potential hitting power, morale fortification, and resiliency at anything near that price

Well, one thing to keep in mind is that they're still just T3/4+. They're way more durable against bolters than codex rough riders (the biggest problem with the codex version), but they lose all of their durability upgrades against STR 6+ weapons. Autocannons will hurt them badly, and Griffons/Hellhounds/etc will remove entire squads from the table. Meanwhile their hitting power is a one-shot weapon and they must use it on the first charge, so they're very vulnerable to meatshield units blocking their path to a primary target. They're certainly better than codex rough riders, but that has way more to do with codex rough riders being terrible than the DKoK version being too powerful.

Probably true, my inner pessimist however keeps reminding me that RR's can never, ever be useful, and I was thinking they weren't looking bad at all at W1. I'm just hoping that W2 is for real-real in the long run, and hopefully a portent of things to come with whatever upcoming IG codex comes out for 6th.

we did get a similiar foreshadowing with the last IG codex and the Chimera, back when FW partially updated their stuff for 5E and the chimera came out at 55pts sporting something called the Command Vehicle rule and came with a bunch of stuff for free instead of being ~85pts

Though what it says for Command Squads is less enthusing.

 Vaktathi wrote:
Though what it says for Command Squads is less enthusing.

I don't think so. FW army lists have always had weak command squads (probably because all guns and no 'command' upgrades is "not fluffy enough"). The only FW list that has ever had proper command squads is the 6th edition armored company one, which has four special weapons (though only at BS 3). In fact, the IA12 CCS is actually better than the old IA5 one, since it gets two special weapons instead of just one.

So, the next IG codex still might change it and cripple command squads, but FW lists aren't really hinting at anything IMO.