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So to explain the title, I'm doing a daemon army with CSM allies. I say I don't know what I'm doing because compared to my pure CSM army and my IG army, list building seems pretty straightforward. Now that I include allies, it seems rather difficult to find a good balance between both armies and daemons in general are a very unique army and very different from CSM or IG so I find myself second guessing my choices a lot. Please help, any knowledge of daemons performance or any good synergies they have with CSM would be greatly appreciated.

Chaos Daemons

HQ
Lord of Change: lvl 2, 1 lesser reward, 2 greater rewards: 280

Heralds:
Herald of Tzeentch: Exalted Locus, lvl 2: 95
Karanak: 120

Elite
4 Bloodcrushers of Khorne: Champ w/ Axe of Khorne, Icon: 205

Troops
10 Bloodletters: Champ w/ Axe of Khorne: 115
13 Pink Horrors: 117
10 Plaguebearers: 90

Fast Attack
3 Plague Drones: Champ, Rot Proboscis, Icon: 156

Heavy Support
Burning Chariot of Tzeentch: 100

CSM allies

HQ
Sorcerer: MoT, Aura of Dark Glory, lvl 2, Meltabombs: 95

Elite
Helbrute: Reaper Autocannon: 105

Troops
8 Chaos Space Marines: Champ w/ PA, Meltabomb, 2 Meltaguns: 154
7 Chaos Space Marines: Champ w/ PM, Meltabombs, flamer: 116

TOTAL: 1750

Just for explanation, I play in friendly, local venues and the people there already agree that the burning chariot should be able to move and fire since that seems to be its purpose and it makes little sense for an armor 10 skimmer to have to wait a turn to fire its weapon at full BS. I know at tournaments that wouldn't fly since it hasn't been FAQ'ed yet (seriously GW, it isn't that hard to fix this) but I don't play tournaments so it doesn't really matter.

As for tactics I plan to put my sorcerer in with the 8 man CSM unit and they just walk up the board while the opponent focuses on the daemons. The Lord of Change uses the lesser gift for the staff to make him S8 (eat that, flyers!) and the greater gifts are just for durability. Karanak goes with the bloodcrushers to give them scout and rage and make them a lot more effective and stronger. As you can guess, I would try to drop the bloodletters in from the bloodcrushers and the plaguebearers from the drones. The HoT and horrors just sit on an objective on my edge along with the 7 man CSM squad and simply stay there and shoot anything that gets too close. The helbrute really is just in there because he is cheap and a good distraction unit, plus the model is cool. My main goal is not so much to destroy my opponent, but to just win by objectives. If I can hold onto the objectives on my side and contest objectives on his side (or even capture one with the daemons troops) then I'll be pretty confident in my success.

I'm still not overly confident with this list as I haven't played daemons yet, so any suggestions you have would be helpful.

Take out the Chariot. The way it is currently worded it can't move and shoot.. Besides it has little shooting for the points anyhow.

Take out the Brute, too little firepower, dies in combat to krak grenades, and sticks out as the only vehicle.

With those points and a few more, you can add 3MoN Oblits w VotLW. They combo really well with Divination, giving you meaningful, and much needed, anti-air/everything.

I would also take out the Plaguebearers, they never do anything but hide. Holding objectives is important though, so I would use the points to add in 2 Exalted Rewards. The portalglyph provides amazing "free" backfield scoring (always spawn Horrors to go for the beam power..). Use the other reward for Grimoire. In combination with Forewarning (if you roll it on Divi), it can make your LoC or Bloodcrushers nigh unkillable.

The last thing I would do is consolidate your two CSM squads into one 10 man squad with plasma/AC/combi-plasma to hide your Sorcerer in and chill around back/midfield.

Any leftover points should go first towards upping your mastery levels, and secondly towards upping the size of your Horror and Bloodletter levels.

These changes allow you to keep the core ideas you were going for, but will give you a much more efficient list with little wasted points and a few powerful tricks up your sleeve for when you need to crank up the heat. Good lucking crushing your friends dreams of glory!

Thanks, for the help! Yeah as much as I like the Burning chariot model (painting flames is fun) but its kinda like the DA land speeder vengeance, a big glass cannon with a "kick me" sign stuck to its back. If I drop that and the helbrute though would I be losing something by not having any vehicles?

Obliterators are usually good, but if I want more anti-air maybe just a heldrake instead since I could afford that with the points saved? Plus the Lord of Change at S8 can vector strike very well too. Although yes, using the Lord of Change to give re-rolls to hit on Oblits would be full of win.

Unfortunately I can only have 50 points of rewards on a GD and since the Lord of Change already has 1 lesser and 2 greater its already maxed. I could give the grimoire/portaglyph on my herald of tzeentch, but is that a good idea? they still die pretty easy.

All of those would be sound ideas. Heldrakes are good, though be aware your friends might whine.

Yes, the Herald is the best place for the Exalted. Horrors are actually really survivable, going to ground in area terrain for a 3+ reroll ones save. Plus, they tend to get ignored for more pressing threats.


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Oh, and having no AV is better than one measly Helbrute. It means all your opponents anti-tank will be wasted. Or inefficient.


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And that Chariot does look boss. Here's hoping it gets a faq!

To start off the points on your Herald of Tzeentch is wrong on your list, It's 100 points not 95 (not that big of a deal but thought I'd let you know.) The LoC I believe still does not vector strike at S8, the reason is because vector strikes happen at unmodified Strength.

Taking out the Helbrute and The Flaming Chariot to add the Heldrake will be a great Idea and leaves you with 30 points to spend (It would be 35 but you need to add the other 5 points to the Herald I mentioned before.)

I don't agree with taking out the Plague Bearers, I usually have them deepstrike in and assault backfield objectives. Being T4, Shrouded and, Poisoned CCW they are pretty nasty for only 90 points. But YMMV .