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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2013/06/17 08:20:03
Subject: Anti-Wave Serpent tactics
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Devestating Grey Knight Dreadknight
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With the changes to the shield as well as 4+ cover saves in the open along with being fast and AV12... not to mention twin linked goodness all around or ridiculously cheap lances (come on the upgrade guns are crazy cheap, I'd have to pay so much more for a razorback las cannon)
This thing has been the bane of my lists for the past few weeks. (pretty much every and any list)
I'm tempted to just throw down an allied detatchment of hydras from some sort of guard build (though I love the other heavy slots more but w/e)
It's more survivable and much much faster than a Land Raider to get things where they need to be and nearly immune to getting alpha striked themselves (unless you denied them going first and there was no cover or night fighting)
It's a transport that's putting out a ton of bs4 shooting at good toughness and even has rending for regular guns so it's got number of shots for hordes and effective fire for anti-elites. It can even buff itself to help shoot at fliers with decent strength guns all around. Crazy good transport so much so I need to figure out how to counter this thing as I think it will be part of the new Meta as much as flier spam.
Any ideas?
BTW, assaulting this thing has not done well for me as it's stupidly fast and can out distance any assault troops. Also even if you blow it up in assault, the troops inside can do rather well shooting you to death with rapid fire rending or AP2 flamers or tons of melta based on what's inside.
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+ Thought of the day + Not even in death does duty end.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2013/06/17 08:25:55
Subject: Anti-Wave Serpent tactics
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Swift Swooping Hawk
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I've never seen Serpents described as crazy cheap. The guns are cheap because the points seem to be in the tank by default instead.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2013/06/17 08:31:34
Subject: Anti-Wave Serpent tactics
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Ladies Love the Vibro-Cannon Operator
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What are the armies you are talking about?
BTW, assaulting this thing has not done well for me as it's stupidly fast and can out distance any assault troops. Also even if you blow it up in assault, the troops inside can do rather well shooting you to death with rapid fire rending or AP2 flamers or tons of melta based on what's inside.
Skimmers in cc got a hit. If you blow up a tank via shooting, your unit can charge the remnants.
But you're right, its not a good idea to charge a unit with AP2 flamers.
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Former moderator 40kOnline
Lanchester's square law - please obey in list building!
Illumini: "And thank you for not finishing your post with a " " I'm sorry, but after 7200 's that has to be the most annoying sign-off ever."
Armies: Eldar, Necrons, Blood Angels, Grey Knights; World Eaters (30k); Bloodbound; Cryx, Circle, Cyriss |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2013/06/17 08:45:21
Subject: Re:Anti-Wave Serpent tactics
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War Walker Pilot with Withering Fire
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The best counters to Serpents will be anything with high strength that ignores cover. Anything to get rid of that 4+ basically.
Highlights include; Dark Reapers with the Str8 missiles (glance them down), or anything Tau.
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8,000 pts and counting
1,000 points, now painting. |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2013/06/17 08:53:30
Subject: Anti-Wave Serpent tactics
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Daring Dark Eldar Raider Rider
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i'm sort of assuming you're playing marines based on your examples and allies suggestions.
Because of the shield, i think you have to just plan to glance them to death, so, as usual, the answer (for marines) is the rifleman dread. a squadron of typhoon speeders wouldn't be a bad idea either (that's 6 missiles/turn)
I think high strength is far less important (the shield will just make a glance 5/6 of the time) than getting a high number of shots into it.
also, despite what the internet would have you believe, it's not exactly a fabulous anti-flyer platform. you could use Storm Talons (again with a high rate of fire weapon)
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2013/06/17 09:11:37
Subject: Anti-Wave Serpent tactics
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Ladies Love the Vibro-Cannon Operator
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Well, the Lanchester square law particularly applies to Serpents and an Eldar player can make good use of it: doubling (2) the tanks needs four fold (2^2) fire power to deal with them. This is particularly hard vs Serpents due to their AV12.
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Former moderator 40kOnline
Lanchester's square law - please obey in list building!
Illumini: "And thank you for not finishing your post with a " " I'm sorry, but after 7200 's that has to be the most annoying sign-off ever."
Armies: Eldar, Necrons, Blood Angels, Grey Knights; World Eaters (30k); Bloodbound; Cryx, Circle, Cyriss |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2013/06/17 09:15:14
Subject: Re:Anti-Wave Serpent tactics
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Giggling Nurgling
Scotland
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I've played against new Eldar a couple of times now and I agree Wave Serpents are hiliarously powerful if you use the set up you described.
Against my Tau army I didn't have any issue with them though, with so much cover ignoring hits being able to get spread around they weren't a problem long term.
It was when I came to face a Wave Serpent heavy list with my vanilla marines that it became just plain painful. Despite having numerous missiles and lascannons (including a talon as someone suggested), the uber cover and pen-to-glance wargear made a mockery of what would have previously been a list apt to deal with reasonable amounts of moderate to high AV vehicles. I agree that lots of weaker fire is now the only way to go if you can't get ignore cover high strength, but marines in particular aren't swimming in mass STR6+ shots required to glance one to death (and keeping in mind given how strong they are now you'll rarely see single serpent lists).
I wasted away a game I knew I'd lost early on with vanilla marines just testing how long a conventional TAC list would take to kill a couple and they didn't manage it. In the end the thing that did take one out was rear armour in a lucky assault so I agree with someone saying above getting rid of them that way works if you can catch them and then survive the storm afterwards when you're all clumped together. If the only army you have is vanilla marines I'd say just wait it out and hope we get some shiny upgrades in the new codex in a couple of months. If you want a short term answer bring in Tau allies and have them do all the work.
I haven't tested my Chaos against them yet, I suspect since I go Nurgle themed they'd stand a better chance than my vanilla, but may still struggle without auto cannon spam Havoks.
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This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2013/06/17 09:17:41
Deathguard Player
Ultramarine Player
Tau Player |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2013/06/17 09:56:57
Subject: Re:Anti-Wave Serpent tactics
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Regular Dakkanaut
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Flik wrote:I've played against new Eldar a couple of times now and I agree Wave Serpents are hiliarously powerful if you use the set up you described.
If the only army you have is vanilla marines I'd say just wait it out and hope we get some shiny upgrades in the new codex in a couple of months. If you want a short term answer bring in Tau allies and have them do all the work.
You should be able to get a couple of Storm Talons behind the Serpents to fire on the rear armour. Remember, the shield doesn't work on hits to rear armour, and Talons have a 360 arc of fire turret.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2013/06/17 10:12:21
Subject: Re:Anti-Wave Serpent tactics
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Giggling Nurgling
Scotland
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Polecat wrote: Flik wrote:I've played against new Eldar a couple of times now and I agree Wave Serpents are hiliarously powerful if you use the set up you described.
If the only army you have is vanilla marines I'd say just wait it out and hope we get some shiny upgrades in the new codex in a couple of months. If you want a short term answer bring in Tau allies and have them do all the work.
You should be able to get a couple of Storm Talons behind the Serpents to fire on the rear armour. Remember, the shield doesn't work on hits to rear armour, and Talons have a 360 arc of fire turret.
Wait is it 360 arc for the front mounted and side mounted? I've been playing that the assault cannon is 360 since you can pivot it like that on the model but not the missiles/lascannons.
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Deathguard Player
Ultramarine Player
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2013/06/17 10:14:32
Subject: Re:Anti-Wave Serpent tactics
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Devestating Grey Knight Dreadknight
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ya, my drop pod marines got pretty much rolled over without much of a chance. (I mostly got side armor cause I didn't know it didn't work in the back, heck the Eldar player probably forgot that side of things too so that's a good lesson learned by me anyway -next time I'll get him to read the full rules out of his book. It basically negated a full squad of combi-melta sternguard. 10 shots, 5 hit, 1 fail to pen, all converted to glances and he passed 3 cover 4+ cover saves so just took 1 HP) Incidentially, the WS is also fairly good vs necrons as the crons really don't have any ignore cover and lance cryptecs need those pens. Wraiths got melted by all the return fire and they are hard to catch. The WS pretty much took the GK apart as well and was actually somewhat worse as I had even fewer bodies for the most part. IG sort of held its own but my AV 12 isn't as nearly as good as their AV12. Nm also that fire dragons make a mess out of any tank squadrons. I can't stop him from reaching my lines with the fire dragons in one of those things so it just melts my face off.
It's really problematic when there's about 4-5 of the damn things.
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+ Thought of the day + Not even in death does duty end.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2013/06/17 10:29:36
Subject: Re:Anti-Wave Serpent tactics
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Regular Dakkanaut
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Flik wrote:Polecat wrote: Flik wrote:I've played against new Eldar a couple of times now and I agree Wave Serpents are hiliarously powerful if you use the set up you described.
If the only army you have is vanilla marines I'd say just wait it out and hope we get some shiny upgrades in the new codex in a couple of months. If you want a short term answer bring in Tau allies and have them do all the work.
You should be able to get a couple of Storm Talons behind the Serpents to fire on the rear armour. Remember, the shield doesn't work on hits to rear armour, and Talons have a 360 arc of fire turret.
Wait is it 360 arc for the front mounted and side mounted? I've been playing that the assault cannon is 360 since you can pivot it like that on the model but not the missiles/lascannons.
Yea just the one you can pivot.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2013/06/17 11:02:02
Subject: Anti-Wave Serpent tactics
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Agile Revenant Titan
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A trick I've found to use against Drop Pod marines and Storm Talons is to move first and then keep both Serpents facing sideways "ass-to-ass" in order to make it impossible to get rear-armour. Wave Serpents got so much better in this edition, but are still really expensive and can see the points rack up fairly quickly. Iranna.
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This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2013/06/17 11:02:42
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2013/06/17 11:19:33
Subject: Re:Anti-Wave Serpent tactics
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Daemonic Dreadnought
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sudojoe wrote:ya, my drop pod marines got pretty much rolled over without much of a chance. (I mostly got side armor cause I didn't know it didn't work in the back, heck the Eldar player probably forgot that side of things too so that's a good lesson learned by me anyway -next time I'll get him to read the full rules out of his book. It basically negated a full squad of combi-melta sternguard. 10 shots, 5 hit, 1 fail to pen, all converted to glances and he passed 3 cover 4+ cover saves so just took 1 HP) Incidentially, the WS is also fairly good vs necrons as the crons really don't have any ignore cover and lance cryptecs need those pens. Wraiths got melted by all the return fire and they are hard to catch. The WS pretty much took the GK apart as well and was actually somewhat worse as I had even fewer bodies for the most part. IG sort of held its own but my AV 12 isn't as nearly as good as their AV12. Nm also that fire dragons make a mess out of any tank squadrons. I can't stop him from reaching my lines with the fire dragons in one of those things so it just melts my face off.
It's really problematic when there's about 4-5 of the damn things.
Wraiths and scarabs can shred wave serpents in cc.
Double court double stormtek. 5 warriors and 2 stormteks with assault 4 haywire aveage 6.6 hp/turn without jink, 3.33 with a 4+ jink
IG can deploy double melta stormies with 1d6 scatter. deep strike and melta in the butt, serp shield is front side only. double plas can also work. Not as good as crons, but nice.
The combi melta sternguard was operator error. If they podded into the rear of the serp those 5 hits would have been 5 pens, still would have lost 3 to the 4+, maybe 4, but the ap1 pen would stay a pen because it's rear armor.
gk interceptors recieve presciene before shunting to the rear. Not as good as necrons or IG
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Chaos isn’t a pit. Chaos is a ladder. Many who try to climb it fail, and never get to try again. The fall breaks them. And some are given a chance to climb, but refuse. They cling to the realm, or love, or the gods…illusions. Only the ladder is real. The climb is all there is, but they’ll never know this. Not until it’s too late.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2013/06/17 11:41:24
Subject: Re:Anti-Wave Serpent tactics
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Fresh-Faced New User
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I have only played eldar and after a few games (4) using the new codex things have certainly got easier. I would suggest opponents use those high str weapons like meltas and lascannons if only to stop eldar players from using the shield in their shooting phase as this is what has made them very nasty.
The other thing to note is what is in them, 5 direavengers are not much threat and they probably won't drop out until an objective is clear, fire dragons are going after your heavy vehicles...my point is, you should know what/where the serpent will end up, make sure you are behind it as suggested already.
The other thing you can try is no reserves, you want as many shots on the field 1st turn as possible no use having your best troops not come on because serpents and their contents have cleared the board before you have your 3rd turn (this happened on the weekend to my opponent in a 1650 point battle against imp gaurd, I did not remove a single model)
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2013/06/17 12:01:24
Subject: Anti-Wave Serpent tactics
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Fresh-Faced New User
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After half a summer break of games of my marines vs Eldar I've become aware of two things.
1.) The Eldar player is the antithesis to my playing style. I play lists that have units that I think are cool and he plays lists with units that he thinks are good.
2.) As a condition of the above, Eldar vs Codex Marines are also an antithesis. Marines have generally elite shooting, and Eldar have innumerable cover and invuln saves that Codex Marines have a really hard time getting through. Couple this with a competitive player and there is very little chance for the vanilla marine player. Anything a marine can do well is done better and cheaper by Eldar.
The easiest way to beat them is have lots and lots of medium strength shooting, but marines don't have access to that without list tailoring, which is something I refuse to do.
That said, my experience has been generally soft lists of space marines against generally hard lists of Eldar, but it is not fun when 2 land speeders with multimeltas deep strike next to a squad of war walkers, hit and pen all four shots, and have two of them blocked by the Piss In Your Cheerios save, and end up killing 1 walker with the results. An extreme example, but things like this occur frequently with the new Eldar jink saves. Generally don't have fun playing against the combination of Comp player and nasty book.
Also in response to the discussion about the Wave Serpent being a cheap vehicle. Consider this. The Wave Serpent has a 1/72 chance per hit of being destroyed by a lascannon. A Land Raider has a 1/9 chance per hit of being destroyed by a bright lance.
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This message was edited 3 times. Last update was at 2013/06/20 18:10:54
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2013/06/17 12:09:27
Subject: Anti-Wave Serpent tactics
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Giggling Nurgling
Scotland
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eje005 wrote:After half a summer break of 2500 point games of my vanilla marines vs Eldar I've become aware of two things.
1.) The Eldar player is the antithesis to my playing style. I play lists that have units that I think are cool and he plays lists with units that he thinks are good.
2.) As a condition of the above, Eldar vs Codex Marines are also an antithesis. Marines have generally elite shooting, and Eldar have innumerable cover and invuln saves that Codex Marines have a really hard time getting through. Couple this with a competitive player and there is very little chance for the vanilla marine player. Anything a marine can do well is done better and cheaper by Eldar.
The easiest way to beat them is have lots and lots of medium strength shooting, but marines don't have access to that without list tailoring, which is something I refuse to do.
That said, my experience has been generally soft lists of space marines against generally hard lists of Eldar, but it is not fun when 2 land speeders with multimeltas deep strike next to a squad of war walkers, hit and pen all four shots, and have two of them blocked by the Piss In Your Cheerios save, and end up killing 1 walker with the results. An extreme example, but things like this occur frequently with the new Eldar jink saves. Generally don't have fun playing against the combination of Comp player and nasty book.
Also in response to the discussion about the Wave Serpent being a cheap vehicle. Consider this. The Wave Serpent has a 1/72 chance per hit of being destroyed by a lascannon. A Land Raider has a 1/9 chance per hit of being destroyed by a bright lance.
Pretty much exactly the scenario I am also in, but when my marines lose without a challenge I just remind myself that my Tau destroys new Eldar equally as easily
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This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2013/06/17 12:09:52
Deathguard Player
Ultramarine Player
Tau Player |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2013/06/17 12:11:06
Subject: Anti-Wave Serpent tactics
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Ferocious Black Templar Castellan
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eje005 wrote:
Also in response to the discussion about the Wave Serpent being a cheap vehicle. Consider this. The Wave Serpent has a 1/72 chance per hit of being destroyed by a lascannon. A Land Raider has a 1/9 chance per hit of being destroyed by a bright lance.
Unless you play Black Templars, in which case said Land Raider will have a 0% chance of being destroyed by the lance.
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For thirteen years I had a dog with fur the darkest black. For thirteen years he was my friend, oh how I want him back. |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2013/06/17 12:27:51
Subject: Anti-Wave Serpent tactics
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World-Weary Pathfinder
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AlmightyWalrus wrote:eje005 wrote:
Also in response to the discussion about the Wave Serpent being a cheap vehicle. Consider this. The Wave Serpent has a 1/72 chance per hit of being destroyed by a lascannon. A Land Raider has a 1/9 chance per hit of being destroyed by a bright lance.
Unless you play Black Templars, in which case said Land Raider will have a 0% chance of being destroyed by the lance.
Which is why we bring the Fire Prisms
Flik wrote:
2.) As a condition of the above, Eldar vs Codex Marines are also an antithesis. Marines have generally elite shooting, and Eldar have innumerable cover and invuln saves that Codex Marines have a really hard time getting through. Couple this with a competitive player and there is very little chance for the vanilla marine player. Anything a marine can do well is done better and cheaper by Eldar.
wuestenfux wrote:Well, the Lanchester square law particularly applies to Serpents and an Eldar player can make good use of it: doubling (2) the tanks needs four fold (2^2) fire power to deal with them. This is particularly hard vs Serpents due to their AV12.
Both of these really; with the durability that Wave Serpents have now, you're unlikely to be winning a long-ranged shooting war against a Mechdar list as their shooting and durability is, per point, superior to pretty much everyone else. This means getting in close, be it Assault (which screws up Wave Serpents very very quickly), or DS or Podding in (though in this case you'll still have to bypass a 4+ coversave).
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Ulthwé Eldar 2.5k points and growing! |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2013/06/17 12:29:49
Subject: Re:Anti-Wave Serpent tactics
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Devestating Grey Knight Dreadknight
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chorde wrote:I have only played eldar and after a few games (4) using the new codex things have certainly got easier. I would suggest opponents use those high str weapons like meltas and lascannons if only to stop eldar players from using the shield in their shooting phase as this is what has made them very nasty.
The other thing to note is what is in them, 5 direavengers are not much threat and they probably won't drop out until an objective is clear, fire dragons are going after your heavy vehicles...my point is, you should know what/where the serpent will end up, make sure you are behind it as suggested already.
The other thing you can try is no reserves, you want as many shots on the field 1st turn as possible no use having your best troops not come on because serpents and their contents have cleared the board before you have your 3rd turn (this happened on the weekend to my opponent in a 1650 point battle against imp gaurd, I did not remove a single model)
In my IG game I perfectly knew where those fire dragons were and they just went straight for me coming in from one side to make me block LOS of some of my own units ( LR's are nice big LOS blockers for both sides lol). The fast skimmer rule makes the damn thing go 12+18 and then 6+6 for the fire dragons to plop them in my face by turn 2. That's a 42 inch move and shoot by turn 2. Pretty damn impressive. I'm not sure the fire dragons can battle focus but if they could, that'd be an extra 4 inches avg for them for a 46' move and then you add their weapons. 3+ cover for that turn also is quite annoying.
I made the typical mistake of getting just high str of attacks (thinking he'd probably try his wraith knight again) but nothing that ignored cover and spread out a bit too much in my deployment zone.(though it's kind of hard not to when you have too many tanks) The LR squadron was also anchoring one flank too which I usually do to block the AV10 chimera sides with at least some AV13. Also I went first with night fighting lol Was kind of lousy for the first turn shooting as he still had a 4+ cover since he was hiding it behind ruins. I did search light it but wasn't really that useful as typically ws's do refused flanks deployment extremely well.
Wraiths and scarabs can shred wave serpents in cc.
Oh I know they do, I've taken down 1-2 before with them except you can't really catch them that well. They move 12 and can still fire at you and unless you pincer them, they can be very hard to impossible to catch in assault. Last time I finally got into assault with the damn thing, the guys inside just came out and shot up the already depleted wraith squad (since they have quite a few tanks and rarely will I be able to multi-assault such fast things.) Also, since as above, they can go 12+18' and I can do a 12+6' run or a 12 + avg 9 in charge, it'd be hard to actually catch them in assault as they are really fast and can see your assault coming most times so will need 2 units in general to pin them in place.
Double court double stormtek. 5 warriors and 2 stormteks with assault 4 haywire aveage 6.6 hp/turn without jink, 3.33 with a 4+ jink
(I kind of like this but dismounted cryptec is not very survivable and you need to be at 12' range. The ws weapons outrange you pretty heavily. You can get those guys with night scythes drop to the rear though so I still do find good merit in this strat. Good work! - however don't expect the cryptec to survive all that well afterwards though lol)
IG can deploy double melta stormies with 1d6 scatter. deep strike and melta in the butt, serp shield is front side only. double plas can also work. Not as good as crons, but nice.
I might need to start taking some melta stormies again. Haven't messed with them in about a year. I shall experiement with them again =)
The combi melta sternguard was operator error. If they podded into the rear of the serp those 5 hits would have been 5 pens, still would have lost 3 to the 4+, maybe 4, but the ap1 pen would stay a pen because it's rear armor.
Since the heldrake, my SM's have been getting shafted one codex after another. Daemons were kind of ok but with helturkey and tau it was huge losses but still sorta hung in there sometimes with some more terminators but the new eldar are so anti- MEQ or elites in general, it's given me a nasty taste for power armored troops completely. I'm hoping that at least points adjustments will let me field more bodies. Not enough models to survive all the firepower now a days and bolters can't even hurt the wraith knight or wraith lord makes me think GW just hates SM now.
gk interceptors recieve presciene before shunting to the rear. Not as good as necrons or IG
I've been leaning more towards more interceptors but it's usually a points problem. The squad of 10 interceptors + 2 psycannons is 280 points. They can kill a what? 135-150 points ws? then they usually get wiped out both by the disembarking troops and other support fire. I'd imagine I'd have to make a pure interceptors list to overwhelm the enemy to allow some to live to be able to do something afterwards. It's probably where GK will have to go as we get later into 6th but it definitely doesn't look that good.
4 psycannon shots (moved so it's assault 2) even with divination is going to average 3.5 hits and still needs a 3+ to glance so will only do about 2 Pens on average which can still be jinked at 4+. The rest of the storm bolters can probably add up another 2 glances will probably total a 1/6 chance to explode and 5/6 not to destroy and just down to 1 hull point on average. Then you still proceed to lose the squad)
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+ Thought of the day + Not even in death does duty end.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2013/06/17 12:40:48
Subject: Anti-Wave Serpent tactics
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Crazed Spirit of the Defiler
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AlmightyWalrus wrote:eje005 wrote:
Also in response to the discussion about the Wave Serpent being a cheap vehicle. Consider this. The Wave Serpent has a 1/72 chance per hit of being destroyed by a lascannon. A Land Raider has a 1/9 chance per hit of being destroyed by a bright lance.
Unless you play Black Templars, in which case said Land Raider will have a 0% chance of being destroyed by the lance.
But then you still lose because your're playing Black Templars :p
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Games Workshop: Ruining Chaos Space Marines since 2007
First they raised prices on the Eldar, and I did not speak out because I did not play Eldar.
Then, they raised prices on the Orks, and I did not speak out because I did not play Orks.
Then, they raised prices on the Nids, and I did not speak out because I did not play Nids.
Then, they raised prices on the Marines, and there was nobody to speak out for me. |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2013/06/17 12:42:30
Subject: Anti-Wave Serpent tactics
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Fresh-Faced New User
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Both of these really; with the durability that Wave Serpents have now, you're unlikely to be winning a long-ranged shooting war against a Mechdar list as their shooting and durability is, per point, superior to pretty much everyone else. This means getting in close, be it Assault (which screws up Wave Serpents very very quickly), or DS or Podding in (though in this case you'll still have to bypass a 4+ coversave).
But that's the issue I have. With a vanilla marines all comers fun list there's no chance against any specialty themed Eldar list since the marines are going to have high strength to try and cover their anti armor bases, and as we've discussed high strength doesn't work. So I would HAVE to know I'm playing Eldar, and I would HAVE to know if he's going mech. I don't like doing that. I don't mind losing, when I play against this player and he brings other armies I still commonly lose, but when it's against Eldar I get wiped off the table by turn 4 commonly. That's not really fun for anyone but a sadist or a masochist.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2013/06/17 12:50:36
Subject: Anti-Wave Serpent tactics
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Ferocious Black Templar Castellan
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Spartan089 wrote: AlmightyWalrus wrote:eje005 wrote:
Also in response to the discussion about the Wave Serpent being a cheap vehicle. Consider this. The Wave Serpent has a 1/72 chance per hit of being destroyed by a lascannon. A Land Raider has a 1/9 chance per hit of being destroyed by a bright lance.
Unless you play Black Templars, in which case said Land Raider will have a 0% chance of being destroyed by the lance.
But then you still lose because your're playing Black Templars :p
What? Preposterous! The Black Knight always triumphs!
More on-topic, could Thunderfire Cannons do anything useful? They're pretty good now with the 6th ed artillery rules, so they wouldn't be worthless against other Codices, and they cause him to move as difficult terrain. Is the Subterranean Blast S6 though? I'm assuming the Ignores Cover one isn't.
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For thirteen years I had a dog with fur the darkest black. For thirteen years he was my friend, oh how I want him back. |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2013/06/17 13:00:37
Subject: Anti-Wave Serpent tactics
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Giggling Nurgling
Scotland
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AlmightyWalrus wrote: Spartan089 wrote: AlmightyWalrus wrote:eje005 wrote:
Also in response to the discussion about the Wave Serpent being a cheap vehicle. Consider this. The Wave Serpent has a 1/72 chance per hit of being destroyed by a lascannon. A Land Raider has a 1/9 chance per hit of being destroyed by a bright lance.
Unless you play Black Templars, in which case said Land Raider will have a 0% chance of being destroyed by the lance.
But then you still lose because your're playing Black Templars :p
What? Preposterous! The Black Knight always triumphs!
More on-topic, could Thunderfire Cannons do anything useful? They're pretty good now with the 6th ed artillery rules, so they wouldn't be worthless against other Codices, and they cause him to move as difficult terrain. Is the Subterranean Blast S6 though? I'm assuming the Ignores Cover one isn't.
The ignore cover one is STR5. I can also testify that in general thunderfires are great, but against a serpent spam list there's nothing but the tanks to shoot at and even if (like I commonly do) you get very lucky with hits using it, you're still glancing on a 6. Now obviously they'd be great on the content of the serpent when/if it gets destroyed but with it moving up table so fast it just doesn't work as well as you'd think. They will turbo boost into your deployment first turn and, if particularly in a cheesy mood, bring the wargear that lets them fire one weapon after doing so.
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This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2013/06/17 13:01:38
Deathguard Player
Ultramarine Player
Tau Player |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2013/06/17 13:03:10
Subject: Anti-Wave Serpent tactics
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Devastating Dark Reaper
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Wave Serpents can be annoying, yes. 4+ cover just for having moved means that in addition to the fact that you'll probably never get penetrating hits against it, it will also ignore half of your hits outright.
In my experience, it's best to treat them like a monstrous creature when assigning target priority: unless you are willing and able to devote all of the firepower necessary to bring one down, consider what other targets there are on the board that might be a better place to put your firepower., and when you choose to bring one down, do not stop until it is brought down. In most cases, the difference in potential lethality to your army between a wave serpent with full health and a wave serpent with one hull point remaining is precisely nothing.
Also, pay attention to what guns it fires. If the wave serpent fires its d6+1 serpent shield discharge, it loses its ability to ignore penetrating hits until the Eldar player's next turn, and you've got an opening in which you may be able to kill it more easily, and it is now possible to cripple it even if you don't kill it.
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Hige sceal þē heardra || heorte þē cēnre,
mōd sceal þē māre || þē ūre mægen lytlað. |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2013/06/17 13:32:06
Subject: Anti-Wave Serpent tactics
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Crazed Spirit of the Defiler
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Except what happens when your opponent brings 6 serpents and 3 fireprisims, if it takes your entire army's volume of fire to bring one down then the rest will be left unimpeded. Massed Serpents arnt balanced right now considering not enough armies have access to high Str cover ignoring weapons.
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This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2013/06/17 13:33:22
Games Workshop: Ruining Chaos Space Marines since 2007
First they raised prices on the Eldar, and I did not speak out because I did not play Eldar.
Then, they raised prices on the Orks, and I did not speak out because I did not play Orks.
Then, they raised prices on the Nids, and I did not speak out because I did not play Nids.
Then, they raised prices on the Marines, and there was nobody to speak out for me. |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2013/06/17 13:50:59
Subject: Re:Anti-Wave Serpent tactics
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Guarding Guardian
Columbus Ohio. USA
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I play Eldar and I see the frustration that Serpents with holofields can cause. My Eldar soul sings with joy at the destruction of Khaine's enemies while my Human heart weeps as I want my opponent to have a good game. In my King-Fu practice we are taught that you attack an opponents weakness not their strength. I recently played a game where turn 1 and 2 my opponent tried taking down my two Serpents to no success and I saw the frustration within him. Turn three he switched targets to non holofield vehicles and other units and had a much greater effect, so much so that I was compelled to use the Serpent Shield as a weapon. Once I did this he easily killed one of the serpents. So my point is that there are times to ignore the Sepents and focus all on the other units to kill what you can and just maybe this might have enough effect where the Eldar player will feel the need to fire the Serpent Shield to make up for the firepower they lost to your shooting. A holofield equiped Serpent is very durable, shoot around it and force the Eldar to think about shooting the shield. As a side note for Codex Marines, bikes and attack bikes are great.
I wish you well.
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Less crying, more playing. Trust me, you'll feel better in the end. |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2013/06/17 14:16:29
Subject: Anti-Wave Serpent tactics
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Devastating Dark Reaper
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Spartan089 wrote:Except what happens when your opponent brings 6 serpents and 3 fireprisims, if it takes your entire army's volume of fire to bring one down then the rest will be left unimpeded. Massed Serpents arnt balanced right now considering not enough armies have access to high Str cover ignoring weapons.
I dunno, I kind of suspect that the biggest reason this army is difficult to face is because the current meta is built towards dealing with monstrous creatures instead of anti-vehicle. People are used to having, say, one or two meltaguns in their list and finding that sufficient. Do you suppose that 6 serpents and 3 fire prisms are significantly harder to bring down than, say, that IG Forge World armored company that lets you take all Leman Russes all the time (9 or so at 1500, more at higher point values)? Or, again at 1500 points, a list that consists of 1 forge world land raider with that annoying attachment that makes it immune to the lance and melta special rules, three other land raiders (one of which has that multi-shot template that ignores cover), two minimum sized units of scouts, one of those bumblebee flier things, and whatever cheap HQ it is that can repair vehicles while inside them?
Not to say that 4+ cover isn't annoying, just that 4+ cover plus most people not gearing their lists to deal with mass vehicles makes Jack a dull boy.
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This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2013/06/17 14:17:30
Hige sceal þē heardra || heorte þē cēnre,
mōd sceal þē māre || þē ūre mægen lytlað. |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2013/06/17 14:26:15
Subject: Anti-Wave Serpent tactics
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Fresh-Faced New User
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I dunno, I kind of suspect that the biggest reason this army is difficult to face is because the current meta is built towards dealing with monstrous creatures instead of anti-vehicle. People are used to having, say, one or two meltaguns in their list and finding that sufficient. Do you suppose that 6 serpents and 3 fire prisms are significantly harder to bring down than, say, that IG Forge World armored company that lets you take all Leman Russes all the time (9 or so at 1500, more at higher point values)? Or, again at 1500 points, a list that consists of 1 forge world land raider with that annoying attachment that makes it immune to the lance and melta special rules, three other land raiders (one of which has that multi-shot template that ignores cover), two minimum sized units of scouts, one of those bumblebee flier things, and whatever cheap HQ it is that can repair vehicles while inside them?
Not to say that 4+ cover isn't annoying, just that 4+ cover plus most people not gearing their lists to deal with mass vehicles makes Jack a dull boy
I disagree strongly. I once fired a devastator team of 4 rockets and a devastator team of 4 lascannons at a falcon and with statistical hits and pens, did 1 hull point. My lists are built to handle armor plenty and they flop against Eldar armor. I commonly run two landspeeders with 2 multimeltas each that deep strike and nuke Russes or anything they want. Except Eldar vehicles just don't care. If Anti-Tank is str 8 and 9 weapons then I have it, and it does not work against Eldar. What DOES work against eldar is spamming strength 7, but you would be crazy to do that if you want to make an all comers list. Anti-Tank against Eldar is not the same as Anti Tank against anything else, and that's why it's frustrating to deal with; it breaks any all comers list with out trying.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2013/06/17 14:36:08
Subject: Anti-Wave Serpent tactics
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Battleship Captain
Oregon
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What's the likelihood of catching them with fast moving assaulter like Spawn or Maulerfiends?
Equal points of either should bust one open.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2013/06/17 14:39:06
Subject: Anti-Wave Serpent tactics
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Devastating Dark Reaper
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re: devastator team - the fact that your opponent was apparently the Chosen of the Dice Gods is not representative of Eldar as a whole.
Two landspeeders with two multimeltas each is what, four shots per round? If that's all you're taking in most lists, it sounds like you just proved my point. Absolute best case scenario, that can kill two tanks in a turn (and then will get hosed by the rest of the list). That's not going to do much against an armored company. Against Eldar and Tau, each of whose skimmers are going to be benefiting from a 4+ cover save, meaning half of your hits are going away. Needs moar dakka.
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Hige sceal þē heardra || heorte þē cēnre,
mōd sceal þē māre || þē ūre mægen lytlað. |
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