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Ran into a situation the other day where my opponent and I couldn't decide on how LOS is drawn when shooting a Quad/Icarus (Aegis Line). Do you follow LOS from the gun's barrel or the model shooting it? It may seem like it doesn't make a difference but some people man it with some very small models and I've seen some 'taller' custom Quad/Icarus cannons made. It was a case where the model had no chance of LOS to my model but the Icarus was tall enough to see my model.

Your thoughts? Or better, a page from the Rule Book?

Since the model is firing it you trace LoS from the model.

That was my argument, however, they countered me by stating that the Quad/Icarus has a profile and is a model. I thought the Quad is unable to shoot on it's own so I explained that you should be using the model firing it (The gunner) for LOS. We found no rules to explain who was right so I settled for LOS from the gun barrel.

LoS is always determined from the models eyes. The quadgun has to be fired by a model in base contact, therefore LoS is drawn from the models eyes that is firing the weapon.

Steelpain wrote:
That was my argument, however, they countered me by stating that the Quad/Icarus has a profile and is a model.

The underlined is incorrect, the Gun Emplacement is not a model, it is terrain classified as Battlefield Debris.

I thought the Quad is unable to shoot on it's own so I explained that you should be using the model firing it (The gunner) for LOS. We found no rules to explain who was right so I settled for LOS from the gun barrel.

You are correct that the Quad is unable to shoot on it's own.

I suppose if LOS is from the firing model, this could be abused by a Wraith Knight or another fairly tall model. Then you could be in a situation where the gun has no chance of seeing the enemy model but your 8 inch tall firing model can. You could keep your gun really safe and out of LOS by never having it exposed with the way some terrain is.

Perfectly within the rules.

So...does the Gun itself block LOS from the model firing it?

That seems really counter-intuitive.

Strangly enough yes, use TLOS at all times.
The model is firing, not the gun emplacement.

Welcome to Games Workshop, where the rules don't always make sense.

The first sentence in the gun emplacement rules holds the answer you are seek. This sentence states the model in base contact with the emplacement is the 'firing model' and follows all the standard rules for a model firing at a target. This would include the fact you draw line of sight from the firing model, not from the weapon he is 'holding.' All the gun emplacement effectively does is grant an additional weapon profile to that model during the shooting phase, it does not change the order of events when it comes to models firing.

So while it makes sense to treat it as a vehicle weapon the rules are telling you to treat it like any other personal weapon.

A good comparison here would be the old eldar weapon support platforms in guardian squads. They have their own models, yet line of sight and range were always drawn from the models firing them. This is old codex though so is by no means concrete evidence, but it is a good comparison.

rigeld2 wrote:
Since the model is firing it you trace LoS from the model.

no, for one the quad/carus las have their own profile including bs allowing it to fire independantly as long as your opponent has not taken the position and manned it themselves thus giving the emplacement its own LoS, and actually states in the uk rule book that it can be fired either with a models bs or the emplacements

for 2 any model within 3" may use its bs to fire the emplacement, not take over firing it, not take control of it, thus allowing a model who doesnt actually have LoS to anything to hide and fire the cannon at their bs with the cannon's LoS. ( we can assume that is a radar gun cam etc etc etc on the gun as their is a control panel with a screen or some other far future tech.

having had arguments at GWUK run tournaments even their ref's yet alone refs of 4 other independant places having ruled in this way, and also the #Welsh Internation Team who have attended 1 and now this weekend their second tournament at my locall club, having agued on behalf of players within the tournament against people trying to claim anything but this (the welsh guys having played in around 100 tournaments around the world)

Chris Lysander wrote:

rigeld2 wrote:
Since the model is firing it you trace LoS from the model.

no, for one the quad/carus las have their own profile including bs allowing it to fire independantly as long as your opponent has not taken the position and manned it themselves thus giving the emplacement its own LoS, and actually states in the uk rule book that it can be fired either with a models bs or the emplacements

for 2 any model within 3" may use its bs to fire the emplacement, not take over firing it, not take control of it, thus allowing a model who doesnt actually have LoS to anything to hide and fire the cannon at their bs with the cannon's LoS. ( we can assume that is a radar gun cam etc etc etc on the gun as their is a control panel with a screen or some other far future tech.

Well, if you have to use the Gun Emplacement's profile then it can never fire as it has BS -.

As it is I think you might be getting Weapon Emplacements and Emplaced Weapons mixed up. Emplaced Weapons can be fired automatically. Weapon Emplacements need a model in base contact to fire.

Chris Lysander wrote:

rigeld2 wrote:
Since the model is firing it you trace LoS from the model.

no, for one the quad/carus las have their own profile including bs allowing it to fire independantly as long as your opponent has not taken the position and manned it themselves thus giving the emplacement its own LoS, and actually states in the uk rule book that it can be fired either with a models bs or the emplacements

You do realize that gun emplacements are not the same thing as emplaced weapons in the rules, right? It seems like you're confusing the two - an ADLs quad gun does not auto fire.

for 2 any model within 3" may use its bs to fire the emplacement, not take over firing it, not take control of it, thus allowing a model who doesnt actually have LoS to anything to hide and fire the cannon at their bs with the cannon's LoS. ( we can assume that is a radar gun cam etc etc etc on the gun as their is a control panel with a screen or some other far future tech.

Citation required - there's no such rule.

having had arguments at GWUK run tournaments even their ref's yet alone refs of 4 other independant places having ruled in this way, and also the #Welsh Internation Team who have attended 1 and now this weekend their second tournament at my locall club, having agued on behalf of players within the tournament against people trying to claim anything but this (the welsh guys having played in around 100 tournaments around the world)

And I care why? Cite your claims, because I'd bet you'll be unable to. The 3" rule is entirely made up.

Chris Lysander wrote:
for 2 any model within 3" may use its bs to fire the emplacement, not take over firing it, not take control of it, ...

This is not actually what the rules say. They say that the model can fire the gun instead of their own weapon.

having had arguments at GWUK run tournaments even their ref's yet alone refs of 4 other independant places having ruled in this way, and also the #Welsh Internation Team who have attended 1 and now this weekend their second tournament at my locall club, having agued on behalf of players within the tournament against people trying to claim anything but this (the welsh guys having played in around 100 tournaments around the world)

Then these people have all got it wrong. It happens... Experience is no immunity to getting rules wrong, particularly in the early days of a new edition.