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Made in ca
Sinewy Scourge






With the new Tau and Eldar release, it's hard to notice that DE seems to be outgunned, out manoeuvred, out numbered, out strengthed etc...
I'm just trying to analyze what exactly can DE even do nowadays...and what tier they are in.

In terms of fire power, we lack amount of shots, the range capability and versatility.
Splinter weapons are still boss against majority of the stuff, but honestly shooting at a WraithKnight/Riptide still takes half the army to shoot at it before dropping it.
Lances on the other hand are sort of expensive depending on the model.
On Ravagers with the mobility I think it's worth it, on trueborn? no so much.

People keep saying use haywire grenades, first of all the delivery system is weak as heck.
Very unlikely you will even be able to get them close enough to dish out the damage need.
MSU, ok so you can now reliably take out 1 tank with a lot of points.
AND what if your opponent is mechless? there goes however many points you spend.

Mobility was and used to be something that we were good at, but it seems that with the vehicle rule change we aren't as fast as we used to be anymore.
The thing is getting close to gunline heavy armies nowadays might not be the best idea, as we lack the range that most people have too.

Which brings us to range, I know we have a 48" range for our ravagers, and 30 - 42" ish for Raiders and stuff, but do we actually want to get in range? 36" is a huge downside to our guns.
With the abundance of 36"+ guns and moving + shooting I think we are in a huge disadvantage.

Cover was our big friend and so were flicker fields, but with jink and 5+ saves everywhere it seems that our advantage for cover has sort of disappeared as well.

And last but not least fliers, at almost the cost of a storm raven assuming you buy some missles flickerfield etc, we don't seem to bring equal firepower to the table.
Our air is pretty versatile though, Lances for Anti Tank and Missles for Anti Infantry, the problem is Lances are pretty bad against AV12 in general...
So anti-air is kinda lack luster.

Overall, I just don't see anything that DE can bring to the table that others cannot beat easily.
On top of that I just don't see a TAC list that DE can bring. Hence a bottom tier army.
What do you guys think?

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2013/06/24 05:08:19


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Made in us
Crazed Spirit of the Defiler






Don't speak of bottom tier when Black Templars still exist, be glad your codex got an update and has a few answers to things in 6th.

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Made in us
[DCM]
Resident Ethicist




Champaign, IL

Well, to be fair, DE was always a tricky army to use. They never had durable vehicles (HP or no - the fact that they're open-topped AV10-11 means that I've had a tendency to wreck them, rather than strip HP), and they've never had all that great of range on their guns. If anything has caused DE to be worse off, though, it's that a huge chunk of their codex is built around CC, and then 6th came by with its no-moving-quickly-and-assault-from-transports thing, and the no-assault-from-reserves single-handedly killed WWP armies.

I'd hesitate to call them bottom tier, though. A few splinterborne in a venom is still absurdly cheap, and allows you to basically wipe out whole squads of stuff that comes on round bases, whether it's weight of fire against gribblies, or poison against the bigger stuff. Vehicles can still be handled with blasters and lances. They have the firepower still.

If anything, what you're seeing is the general shift in 6th ed away from big pile of flimsy units and towards tough, expensive, elite units. Since DE sort of don't HAVE those kinds of units, it's naturally going to be tough.

With a cavalier attitude towards casualties and making the most of force concentration boosts caused by mobility, I hardly think it's a hopeless case, though.



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Made in se
Black Templar Chaplain with Hate to Spare






Sweden

 Makutsu wrote:

In terms of fire power, we lack amount of shots, the range capability and versatility.


Wait, Dark Eldar lack amount of shots?

BoLS on the cognitive dissonance of allowing allies but not 2x FOC or Lords of War
JPong wrote:
I don't get this. There has been some sort of revisionist history going on here (and other places) every time this topic comes up. They all just keep swearing that Fifth was assault oriented. Even assault armies were taking troops so they could get more razorbacks or rhinos or psyweapons. There is a reason Tyranids did poorly in this "assault" edition, and it has nothing to do with their assault units being bad in the context of Fifth.
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Made in de
A Crystal Tree in the Dome of the Seers






Hamburg

Well, I also think its not hopeless. In our RTTs we are playing objective based missions, no pure killpoint mission. In such missions, DE should be able to shine.

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Made in gb
Swamp Troll



Northampton

They are not bottom tier in the slightest.

I'm a total novice DE player and I came second in a tournament using a borrowed DE army.

They have solid answers to everything, but have great difficulty vs Tau, some IG lists and Necrons.

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Made in us
Pulsating Possessed Chaos Marine





land of 10k taxes

I think they were, now they are better. Why = because of all the MC armies out there (Tau Riptide x 3, 5 x MC CSM/Daemon, Nids and Wraith Knight x 3 eldar), 6-9 Venoms w/ duel Splinter Cannons can cause alot of hurt. Yes you still get Rocked by Scissors armies, but you crunch rock armies.
Poison does not care about toughness.
   
Made in gb
Longtime Dakkanaut





ITs not just the MC's which they are a perfect counter to, its the shift from AV to infantry 6th ed has seen they can now spend more pts on splinter cannons. A friend runs a 1850 list with 9 lances and over 140 posion shots at 36" range, everything is meched up in venoms etc, so nightshields help with the - 6 inch range. Up close they kick out over 200 posined shots iirc.

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Made in us
Daring Dark Eldar Raider Rider




Charleston, SC

I would not say that Dark Eldar are bad now by any stretch of the imagination. I am still doing fine in standard games of 40k.

However, 6th Edition has done a lot to gut our number of viable builds by hurting our close combat units immensely. For example wych and webway based lists are laughable. Heck, when people do take wyches now it is for anti-tank duty as a suicide unit of all things.

 
   
Made in za
Dominating Dominatrix




Land of Wind and Shade

6e requires you to slaughter piles upon piles of infantry and monstrous creatures, and the Dark Eldar's shooting can do that very, very well.

   
Made in gb
Swamp Troll



Northampton

The key thing with DE is while they have a lot of CC units, their anti toughness shooting is second to none.

With a DE army, you can ignore the CC units and just go all out shooty and still hold out against a huge amount of top tier lists. Especially so when you play low level games.

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Made in nz
Longtime Dakkanaut



New Zealand

Well lets see; BA are better, Daemons are better, CSM are better, Dark Angels are better, Eldar are better, GK are better, IG are better, Necrons are better, SW are better, Tau are better and Nids are better. That just leaves them above/around the same level as Templars, Nilla Marines and pure Sisters and pure Orks (those two armies have some milage when used with Allies, but DE can only ally with Eldar who would far rather ally with someone better), but that's about it, so yes they are most definitely bottom tier.

That isn't to say that they have nothing going for them, the massed poisoned shooting is still nice. However the fact the entire army is made of paper lets it down big time. If you are playing Dark Eldar you HAVE to go first, otherwise you lose a big chunk of your skimmer fleet turn 1 and will be well on the way to losing if you are playing a half decent player. Obviously you can take the Baron to help get around this, but you are still going to be in a terrible position in slightly less than half your games. To me what ends the argument about whether they are bad or not is the fact that you can give them a really good matchup (Nids for example), and can still very very easily lose those games if you don't go first (i.e Flyrants take out 2 vehicles turn 1, you struggle to ground them while huge numbers of Gaunts are running at you and giving the Nid player complete board control, turn 2 Ymagals show up and combi charge a couple more vehicles and things do downhill even with all that Poison shooting). No army can rely on going first just to break even, its a recipe for disaster.
   
Made in de
Ultraviolent Morlock







Sad to say, I just stopped my Dark Eldar project because of the poor performance. Even the most boring Venom heavy build can't compete with today's common foes.
   
Made in gb
Lethal Lhamean





Leeds, UK

I'm truly eager to break out the old mandrakes against my brother in laws tau, and get them tied in with his Riptide. I'd love to see that thing fall from the "safety" of the back field like that


   
Made in gb
Water-Caste Negotiator





I think they can compete, I really regret selling my venom spam army at the end of 5th now as I'd love to give it a run out. As ever in 6th DE are terrain dependent, if they use blos terrain to reduce/nullify a first turn alpha strike and use manoeuvrability to get the angles on opponents they can be absolutely devastating. They have a good range too especially when night shields can reduce the return fire, plus high strength low AP weapons are anathema to most Tau builds and lance weapons are effective vs Necrons AV13.
   
Made in us
Maddening Mutant Boss of Chaos




Powerguy wrote:
Well lets see; BA are better, Daemons are better, CSM are better, Dark Angels are better, Eldar are better, GK are better, IG are better, Necrons are better, SW are better, Tau are better and Nids are better. That just leaves them above/around the same level as Templars, Nilla Marines and pure Sisters and pure Orks (those two armies have some milage when used with Allies, but DE can only ally with Eldar who would far rather ally with someone better), but that's about it, so yes they are most definitely bottom tier.


So much of this must come down to local area opinion. IMO DE are better than BA, Wolves, Dark Angels unless you are including using IG allies. Probably on par with CSM in many cases (they meta great against Nurgle heavy builds as they negate the T bonus) They also Meta Well against most common GK builds these days (they were terrible in 5th when it was all Psybacks and Dreads, but Strike squads on foot get hosed, as can paladins). They meta great against Nids and Daemons (not that hard to ground units when you have 100+ poisoned shots, Tervigons die hard core.)

They certainly are not an easy win army or an easy army to play but especially with Eldar Allies (Re-rolling hits on poisoned shots etc.) they are a strong army. IF we are doing Tiers at all currently IMO they would be something like (in No particular order)

Top Tier
Necrons
IG
Tau

Most others
DE
All Marine and CSM dexes
Orks
Nids
Daemons
Sisters

Bottom
Templars - as there is little they do at this point that other Marine Books don't do better. THough they are still not bad.

When you start to include allies things get shaken up quite a bit more as there is really no differentiation at that point between dexes.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2013/06/24 12:18:37


 
   
Made in us
Prophetic Blood Angel Librarian




BA are not better than DE. BA are arguably even worse than BT at this point because of atrocious HQs and overcosted theme units that litter the codex.

Mass jumpers doesn't cut it, not does mech BA. Whenever people try to defend the BA, they always cherrypick units from the codex they fear, not explain how they intend to make a coherent TAC list that doesn't doesn't loose big to Necron air, Vendettas, or Helldrakes.

If you want to drag allies into, the DE are battle brothers with everything in the new Eldar codex.

Yeah, DE are tricky, but their scheme of heavy doses of poison weapons keeps getting better as GW puts out more units like the riptide and wraithknight.
   
Made in us
Longtime Dakkanaut





I think DE only function with Eldar and if they are built around Deathstars.

Foot DE isn't too good because the troops are pricey and fragile, they are also susceptible to Drakes, Tau and any other ignore cover template weapons.

Mech DE is even worse off. They can put out a lot of hurt and will often times get good alpha strikes, however they cannot take return fire at all. This is quite bad.

In 6th, even my Nid army has had success vs DE. I think that is quite telling.

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Made in ca
Sinewy Scourge






The lack of shots is really referring to Anti-Tank shots, I know we have way more than enough poison but to be quite frank Splinterlight weapons are kinda lacking in the DE army, if we had 1.5 more of them then maybe we'd do better.

Blasterborn is the most odd one out there, can move only 6" with the venom if you want the full shooting capacity of them. And has to be within 18"...not sure if that's the best range that you want to be in....


I know we're amazing against MCs, but with 5W-6W at 2+ armor it actually takes a lot of shots to get it down.
5W = 30 wounds, 60 hits, 90 shots
6W = 36 wounds, 76 hits, 114 shots
As it seems taking down a riptide or Wraithknight basically requires an entire army to shoot at it to take it down.
Now running Riptides stock and Wraithknight stock seems to be a trend, so you're pumping a lot of stuff into them to take them down, and leaving them alone will cause a lot of trouble too.

On the other hand, since most of their infantry are T3, poison isn't the most point effective gun against them.

For me currently, I think the bottom tier lists are.
BA
BT
DE
SoB<-maybe

Nids are still winning tournaments with the flyrant list, and Orks seems to be getting an update soon enough, and still is middle tier for sure.
Considering how long it took for DE to get an update and to be bottom tier so soon it's just really sad.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
funny thing is, Dark Lances cost about the same as a Lascannon, but only function better against AV14 which doesn't exist in the current meta.
But lose in range as well.

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2013/06/24 15:48:18


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Made in us
Maddening Mutant Boss of Chaos




What MCs do you commonly see with a 2+ armor save?

Common MCs

Tervigon (3+)
Flyrant (3+)
Daemon Prince (3+)
Greater Daemon (3+)
Wraithknight (3+)

Riptide (2+)
Dreadknight (2+)

So sure their are a couple but assuming a 3+ is a far better assumption than 2+, and no 6 wound MC has a 2+.


Against a MC with a 3+ you need 54 Poisoned shots to kill, assuming you don't hit it with any other weapons.

Futhermore against Tau you just target their Markerlights first, so you can get your cover.


Also DE troops are expensive? 9 or 10 points? Expensive compared to Kroot or Orks, but hardly expensive.

I showed in a different thread that given the point costs of most units Poisoned shooting is just as point efficient against T3 as most other basic guns on troops (They get beat by Kroot, Orks, and IG, but not much else.).

Just saying DE has won at least one 50+ person GT (with Eldar Allies) and placed well at Adepticon (obviously both prior to Tau and Eldar).

SO hardly seem bottom Tier to me (how have marines without IG allies placed? )

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2013/06/24 15:55:21


 
   
Made in us
Heroic Senior Officer




On moon miranda.

Dark Eldar in general are a very Win Big/Lose Big type of army in general.

DE are very good at engaging MC's, AV14 tanks, and the like, but tend to have issues with confronted with sheer numbers of mediocre/piddly stuff. A Dark Eldar list won't have an issue facing 4 Land Raiders, they will very much have an issue facing 10 Chimeras, likewise they won't have much issue with T5 Terminators but will generally actually have more of an issue with lots T3 dudes.

On top of that, 6E has done a lot to reduce the viability of many of their units. Somehow DE vehicles were made even easier to kill (in terms of average number of shots required) than they used to be, and due to the nature of 6th edition CC units, of which DE have many, aren't as useful. On top of that, 9+pts for 5+sv infantry isn't cheap.


TL;DR DE are very, very good at facing some armies, and very very bad at facing others.

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Made in gb
Charing Cold One Knight




Cloudsdale

Dark Eldar Night Shields can take a lot of the bite out of Tau, especially some of the more popular units such as HYMP XV88s.

Splinter Cannons have 36" range and a venom with Night Shields means that a Tau pulse rifle has a range of 24" when shooting at it. So if you hug that 36" range, the Tau Pulse Rifle cannot hit you, even if they move forwards.

Next up is Missilesides. HYMP has 36" range so that becomes 30". If that Broadside wants to shoot you with its main weapon it has to move and so fire snap shots. Smart Missiles suffer the same problem as Pulse Rifles.

Markerlights can alleviate this, so they should be target priority number one. If you can keep at 36" range from Pathfinders then that's snap shot markerlights, with makes it a lot harder to strip cover and boost ballistic skill as they aren't getting the number of hits they need.

High range stuff like Hammerheads, Railsides, MP Crisis and Riptides are still a problem, though.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2013/06/24 16:23:42


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Made in gb
Swamp Troll



Northampton

I have five flgs that I frequent. All of them are far from the other and each of them has a DE Player that no one can beat.

This guy Ryan from my local Stoke store, is our top player. With his DE he never finishes below top 8. His army is fantastic and his skills with it are something to behold.

Ryan regularly wins local tournaments and enters the GTs.

If you asked him and anyone in our group, we'd say DE are far from bottom tier.

Mid to high mid possibly, but I think that it might have something to do with the pilot too.

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Made in us
Longtime Dakkanaut





 A Town Called Malus wrote:
Dark Eldar Night Shields can take a lot of the bite out of Tau, especially some of the more popular units such as HYMP XV88s.

Splinter Cannons have 36" range and a venom with Night Shields means that a Tau pulse rifle has a range of 24" when shooting at it. So if you hug that 36" range, the Tau Pulse Rifle cannot hit you, even if they move forwards.

Next up is Missilesides. HYMP has 36" range so that becomes 30". If that Broadside wants to shoot you with its main weapon it has to move and so fire snap shots. Smart Missiles suffer the same problem as Pulse Rifles.

Markerlights can alleviate this, so they should be target priority number one. If you can keep at 36" range from Pathfinders then that's snap shot markerlights, with makes it a lot harder to strip cover and boost ballistic skill as they aren't getting thee number of hits they need.

High range stuff like Hammerheads, Railsides, MP Crisis and Riptides are still a problem, though.


Even without markerlights, Broadsides with their twin-linking Str.7 will make short work of DE vehicles. I don't think DE stand much chance, if any against Tau, Eldar, Necrons, GK and IG. Everything else I think they can compete with..

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Made in us
Shas'la with Pulse Carbine




San Diego, CA

It is my opinion that DE are currently a very strong army. Your issue may be the way you play them.

Range: You have 36" range guns on platforms that move 12". You have the same range as most other heavy weapons platforms. The only people out-ranging you are Tau and IG, both of whom lack your mobility. Add in nightshields and you gain 6" of range advantage on your vehicles. This allows you to take advantage of first strike capability, even when going second (Pre-measure your opponents anti-tank weapon's range).

Firepower: You can spam venoms with 12 poison shots at BS 4 Each for 70ish points. Grab a couple of these guys and you can splat a monsterous creature every turn. I'll give you that your lance weapons are expensive, but they can kill any tank in the game (even the vaunted Land Raider). Ravagers are a good platform for them. Blasterborn may be expensive, but considering how cheap the venoms are you can still crank out some scary firepower.

Durability: Your list has never been top tier for durability, you can gain some with nightshields. Your main survivability has always come from fielding a ton of crazy cheap units. With most of your squads weighing in at less than 100pts, your opponent will be wasting so much firepower every time they shoot.

Your codex is rather brutal vs anything that doesn't use AV or a 2+ and you have lances and disintigrators for those things that do. Use careful deployment and monitor enemy weapons ranges as you move. Prioritize their long range AT and you will be dancing in circles around them as they die of mass splinter and lance fire.

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Made in ca
Sinewy Scourge






Range: You have 36" range guns on platforms that move 12". You have the same range as most other heavy weapons platforms. The only people out-ranging you are Tau and IG, both of whom lack your mobility. Add in nightshields and you gain 6" of range advantage on your vehicles. This allows you to take advantage of first strike capability, even when going second (Pre-measure your opponents anti-tank weapon's range).


The thing is with a 12" movement you're moving into your enemy's range, which is very undesirable as DE don't want to be shot by anybody at all.
most heavy weapon platforms are generally 36" - 48", even with nightshields 48" weapons will murder you.
And with the abundance of fliers, mobility of DE skimmers mean a lot less.

Firepower: You can spam venoms with 12 poison shots at BS 4 Each for 70ish points. Grab a couple of these guys and you can splat a monsterous creature every turn. I'll give you that your lance weapons are expensive, but they can kill any tank in the game (even the vaunted Land Raider). Ravagers are a good platform for them. Blasterborn may be expensive, but considering how cheap the venoms are you can still crank out some scary firepower.

Venoms are amazing, but they come with tax of whatever you're buying with them and they don't work really well with venoms.
Just because it can kill any tank doesn't mean it's effective, AV14 is the only spot it is good at when compared to the same costed Lascannon.
Blasterborn has a range of 18" which means that whatever you're shooting at if it's not dead by next turn you're toast.

Durability: Your list has never been top tier for durability, you can gain some with nightshields. Your main survivability has always come from fielding a ton of crazy cheap units. With most of your squads weighing in at less than 100pts, your opponent will be wasting so much firepower every time they shoot.

Your codex is rather brutal vs anything that doesn't use AV or a 2+ and you have lances and disintigrators for those things that do. Use careful deployment and monitor enemy weapons ranges as you move. Prioritize their long range AT and you will be dancing in circles around them as they die of mass splinter and lance fire.


Durability is completely fine if it can dish out the amount of damage it's supposed to which it does and sometimes doesn't.
Going 2nd for DE is pretty much game right there.
Even with 4+, 5+ cover saves by turn 2 chances are 1/3 of your army's vehicles are pretty much gone.

You can't prioritize long range as anything else they have in close range will crack you open.
Dancing in circles only happen if you somehow are up against armies that lack completely in range or mobility.
Which has happened before me against Blood Angel Death company, or DE against Tyranids in general.

Dark Eldar is really a match up army, against the right matchup you'll win really heavily, against a bad matchup Venomspam vs Mechspam, you can pretty much just tidy up.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
 LValx wrote:

Even without markerlights, Broadsides with their twin-linking Str.7 will make short work of DE vehicles. I don't think DE stand much chance, if any against Tau, Eldar, Necrons, GK and IG. Everything else I think they can compete with..


Dark Eldar can't really beat Space Wolves either if they go 2nd, and if they do a wall of some sort then you're going to have some trouble getting close to the long fangs too.
Chaos Space Marines with Helturkeys are another bane of Dark Eldar S6 is way more than enough to torch those pesky T3 that rely on cover saves, and ignores FNP.

This message was edited 4 times. Last update was at 2013/06/24 16:44:33


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4000+ points W/D/L: 7/0/4
1500+ points W/D/L: 16/1/4

Fantasy
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2500+ points W/D/L: 0/0/3
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Made in us
Maddening Mutant Boss of Chaos




I think what people don't consider when thinking competitive is Meta. Long Fangs are meh in the current meta, they are not great infantry killers, and Heldrakes eat them, so they don't work well so unless you face them first you never see them. Furhtermore, they kill what at most 3 Venemons, then get Vaped by all the DE shooting the next turn.

I disagree on GKs owning them, was truen in 5th, but the 6th Ed GK list is not a good because it uses lots of expensive infantry.

I think the issue is that it is very easy to make a bad DE list and get owned.

Against Eldar the match-up is Build Dependent, DE are great against Wraith Amies.
   
Made in gb
Swamp Troll



Northampton

I think in this edition, DE players need to start thinking out of the box.

I'm testing vs Nurgle Drakespam tonight and then Tau afterwards. I know the chaos army I'm facing - Plague Marines, Drake x2, Nurgle Obliterators and Zombies. It's 1750, so it should be a game where I can get a good mix of stuff to take.

Not too sure about Tau though.

Mr Mystery wrote:Suffice to say, if any of this is actually true, then clearly Elvis is hiding behind my left testicle, and Lord Lucan behind the right.


X Wing record: 5-0 Rebels. 
   
Made in ca
Sinewy Scourge






Puscifer wrote:
I think in this edition, DE players need to start thinking out of the box.

I'm testing vs Nurgle Drakespam tonight and then Tau afterwards. I know the chaos army I'm facing - Plague Marines, Drake x2, Nurgle Obliterators and Zombies. It's 1750, so it should be a game where I can get a good mix of stuff to take.

Not too sure about Tau though.


I just don't see them having too many options to think out of the box, DE weapons are pretty specialized, and besides splinter cannons none of them really do their job really well, maybe haywire wyches and Venoms might make a good combination.

40K:
5000+ points W/D/L: 10/0/6
4000+ points W/D/L: 7/0/4
1500+ points W/D/L: 16/1/4

Fantasy
4000+ points W/D/L: 1/1/2
2500+ points W/D/L: 0/0/3
Legends 2013 Doubles Tournament Champion  
   
Made in se
Black Templar Chaplain with Hate to Spare






Sweden

Martel732 wrote:
BA are not better than DE. BA are arguably even worse than BT at this point because of atrocious HQs and overcosted theme units that litter the codex.

Mass jumpers doesn't cut it, not does mech BA.


Still better than BT. BT have no Librarians, expensive Razorbacks and pay 16 ppm for assault troops without grenades.

BoLS on the cognitive dissonance of allowing allies but not 2x FOC or Lords of War
JPong wrote:
I don't get this. There has been some sort of revisionist history going on here (and other places) every time this topic comes up. They all just keep swearing that Fifth was assault oriented. Even assault armies were taking troops so they could get more razorbacks or rhinos or psyweapons. There is a reason Tyranids did poorly in this "assault" edition, and it has nothing to do with their assault units being bad in the context of Fifth.
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