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So, I will probably be starting an Eldar list in a few months. I'm a competitive player. The one thing I will probably not consider is taking Tau allies, as I simply don't like them. Otherwise, I just want a vicious list, fluff, etc. be damned.

I have yet to play a game of 6th, as my only army (Blood Angels) was ruined by the new rules, plus I've been busy anyway. So I'm starting to think about lists now so I will hopefully be more up to speed once I'm able to start buying.

I am considering two different takes on the army. One is very Wave Serpent focused, the other is a riff on a list I recently saw in a Team Zero Comp battle report.

Army 1 (Wave Serpents):

HQ: Spiritseer 70
TR: 5 Wraithguard with D-Scythes, Wave Serpent with Scatter laser and Holofields 345
TR: 5 Wraithguard, Wave Serpent with Scatter laser and Holofields 295
TR: 10 Guardian Defenders, Shuriken cannon, Wave Serpent with Scatter laser and Holofields 240
TR: 10 Guardian Defenders, Shuriken cannon, Wave Serpent with Scatter laser and Holofields 240
TR: 10 Guardian Defenders, Shuriken cannon, Wave Serpent with Scatter laser and Holofields 240
HS: 2 Warwalkers with Scatter laser and Bright lance 140
HS: 2 Warwalkers with Scatter laser and Bright lance 140
HS: 2 Warwalkers with Scatter laser and Bright lance 140

Total: 1850

Army 2: (Seer Council Eldar with Dark Eldar Allies)

HQ: Farseer on Jetbike, Singing Spear 120
HQ: Farseer on Jetbike, Singing Spear 120
HQ: 8 Warlocks on Jetbikes 400
HQ: Baron Sathonyx 105
TR: 3 Windrider Jetbikes, Shuriken cannon 61
TR: 3 Windrider Jetbikes, Shuriken cannon 61
TR: 3 Windrider Jetbikes, Shuriken cannon 61
TR: 10 Kabalite Warriors, 1 Splinter cannon 100
TR: 10 Kabalite Warriors, 1 Splinter cannon 100
FA: 7 Warp Spiders 133
FA: 7 Warp Spiders 133
FA: 7 Warp Spiders 133
FA: Beast Pack: 5 Beastmasters, 6 Khymerae, 6 Razorwing Flocks 222
Fortification: Aegis Line with Quad Gun 100

Total: 1849

With list 1, I'm obviously going for quality over quantity. I think it handles a lot of the current meta pretty well. Anything with lots of fliers should be a decent matchup, except maybe Necrons as I don't want to be in combat with Wraiths. Against Tau, I should be OK if I can kill a lot of the markerlights quickly. I should have no problem killing Pathfinders quickly, but I'm concerned about other sources. Nids will not like the Wraithguard.

List 2 is all about putting fast bodies on the table, and letting the Seer Council do its thing. I believe I'm ripping off a list by Grant of Team Zero Comp, except I'm taking Warp Spiders instead of War Walkers. I like the Warp Spiders more because they let me completely avoid vehicles. Here, the obvious weakness is the Heldrake, and AV14 too I guess. I'm considering cutting a few Warp Spiders to add a bunch of Singing Spear to the Warlocks, which would help with the second problem and maybe the first a bit too. I love the utility the Baron brings to the table here. I'm also wondering whether the second Warrior squad is worth it, but I can't see any obvious use for the points besides more Jetbikes, which wouldn't help much with the Heldrake issue.

Thanks in advance for your comments.

I would say List 1, except just go 2 BL on the WW, you have enough str 6 everywhere else and it improves your AV14 problem.

Not to mention the fact 2BL are better than SL/BL. SL and BL are 2 weapons with different roles that do not support each other. i don't know you came up with that combo but i just don't see why people prefer it to 2 BL's.

Oh well.

I agree with Mixer. I also think adding the Shuriken Cannon to the WS is a good idea if you can find the points.

Well, I'd prefer list 1. Looks very solid. Against Tau, after getting rid of the marker lights (Pathfinders), I'd tank shock the Fire Warriors off the table.

 mixer86 wrote:
I would say List 1, except just go 2 BL on the WW, you have enough str 6 everywhere else and it improves your AV14 problem.

Not to mention the fact 2BL are better than SL/BL. SL and BL are 2 weapons with different roles that do not support each other. i don't know you came up with that combo but i just don't see why people prefer it to 2 BL's.

Oh well.

The reason for the SL/BL combo is to TL the BL. Against Flyers, it gives you a good chance of getting the extra BL shot. But I can see the logic of your argument.

 MrEconomics wrote:

 mixer86 wrote:
I would say List 1, except just go 2 BL on the WW, you have enough str 6 everywhere else and it improves your AV14 problem.

Not to mention the fact 2BL are better than SL/BL. SL and BL are 2 weapons with different roles that do not support each other. i don't know you came up with that combo but i just don't see why people prefer it to 2 BL's.

Oh well.

The reason for the SL/BL combo is to TL the BL. Against Flyers, it gives you a good chance of getting the extra BL shot. But I can see the logic of your argument.

Again though 2BL with 2 shots has a 1 in 3 chance of hitting a flyer. the other loadout has roughly the same chance, providing you hit with a scatter laser shot.

So not a lotof difference i grant you, but you are half as effective against the other main target for BL, AV14.

You are actually 67% as effective against Av14 with the mix. You are almost certain to be twin linked, and that makes you average .89 hits versus 1.33.

I think I'm going to run some numbers on this.

OK, numbers are in. I was careful to account for the AP difference in calculating Explodes! results, and the fact that Laser Lock only helps about half the time against Flyers.

The highlight is that the BLxSL combo is 33% worse at stripping Hull Points against AV13 and AV14, and 30% worse at getting kill shots. For Hull Points, it is 87%, 67%, and 33% better against AV10, AV11 and AV12; for kill shots it is only better against AV10 with AV11 being almost a dead heat. These numbers are all against ground targets.

Against Flyers, the BLxSL combo is always better at stripping Hull Points. It's 38% better against AV12. The dual BL combo is 30% better at killing AV12 outright but worse against AV10 and AV11.

That said, neither combo is great against AV12 Flyers. It takes more than 4 War Walkers to strip a Hull Point for the mix. If you Twin Link all shots, the mixed combo is still better at stripping Hull Points, albeit not by quite as much. In any case, my numbers do not include Jink saves, the Heldrake's invul, etc. So the bottom line is even a full set of 9 War Walkers will not cut it as anti-Flyer.

So, to me, it comes down to flexibility versus strength in niche. The 2xBL combo is better against high AV, and has a better chance of blowing up the Flyers that matter. In fact, if I had a way to Twin Link all 6 War Walkers in the list, they'd have roughly a 25% chance to blow up a Heldrake in a turn's shooting. On the other hand, I can expect to strip a little more than half a Hull Point per Wave Serpent if I shoot the Shield at a Drake. The BLxSL combo supports this significantly better. Given that the mix is better against almost every conceivable infantry target, I will probably go with the mix.