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Ok there is an existing thread on dakka about this, found here: http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/502434.page

However it died down a while a go without too much being said, and was before the FAQ (when Sammael was needed more to pad out Ravenwing command squads).

I want to see on average how most Ravenwing prefer to play their warlord.
Ideally this will focus on the gameplay aspects, as opposed to views on the modeling and painting the speeder or bike.

So as the title says - which would you play in a competitive game? The bike, or the speeder?


Automatically Appended Next Post:
I'm personally going to hold off from voting just yet, I played a few games with the jetbike and was a little disappointed. 1 plasma cannon and SR buff just didn't cover the cost for me. I'll try the speeder and see how it goes.

I really wish I'd included 4 options on this now,

i)Jetbike due to math hammer
ii)Jetbike due to experience
iii)speeder due to math hammer
iv)speeder due to experience

I have heard many people give negative comments about the speeder, but have never actually played it. Would be interesting IMO to see how many people have actually played both of them.

I'm also torn between the 2. One thing that sounds appealing about the speeder, AV 14.

People often talk about the speeder being too weak, citing "only 2hp!" With this said, it still has 14 armour and a 4+ invuln. Melee will screw it over though.

EW on the jetbike is a little wasted as he is already T5, but he dies the same as a standard RAS to small arms fire.

With mathhammer, outside of melee, the speeder seems much more durable.
Average number of BS4 missiles needed to kill speeder - 36
Average number of BS4 missiles needed to kill Jetbike - 10

This Isn't even mentioning small arms fire to which the speeder is practically immune (keep rear armour facing off table edge)

I've just bought the speeder, and already have the bike. I've so far been disappointed with the bike, 1 plasma cannon shot for 200 points is terrible, rolling a 1 is a waste of a shooting phase.
The speeder on the other hand puts out 7 shots a turn with 98% accuracy.

I am curious why so many people think the bike is better.

The big problem I see with the speeder is that AV10 on the back. That scares me a lot, anything with some half way decent firepower deep striking is going to down that, or at least peel off a HP or two (with it's 4+ invuln save). You could keep him along the table edge, back facing out, which helps a lot, but I'm unsure how feasible in real games that is.

Also, I may be wrong, maybe there's some exception, but the speeder can't join a Ravenwing squad, right? So it's all on its own.

I prefer the Jetbike because you can get him in with a squad of Ravenwing bikers, setting up your formation to protect him a bit. Eternal Warrior plus 4+ invuln makes him pretty hardy, and an AP2 sword striking at initiative is worth its weight in gold, and allows him to hold up really well in challenges. He lacks the raw firepower of a heavy bolter + assault cannon, but is better in CC, and his base gun is also AP2, versus needing 6s on to-wound rolls to get the same result.

Positioning is key with the speeder, you are right that it cannot join units in anyway, so you have to play smart. Keep its rear armour facing off the table edge, and don't let anything assault you.

Eternal Warrior plus 4+ invuln makes him pretty hardy,

Yes and no. My trouble with him is I don't know where to put him in a squad. Sure he could tank a krak missile or 2, but then again he is only as strong vs smaller firs as 3 standard bikers, so is quite likely to die that way.

Ap2 is CC at initiative is great....but str 4 is not. Still could be useful.

Big Blind Bill wrote:
Positioning is key with the speeder, you are right that it cannot join units in anyway, so you have to play smart. Keep its rear armour facing off the table edge, and don't let anything assault you.

Eternal Warrior plus 4+ invuln makes him pretty hardy,

Yes and no. My trouble with him is I don't know where to put him in a squad. Sure he could tank a krak missile or 2, but then again he is only as strong vs smaller firs as 3 standard bikers, so is quite likely to die that way.

Ap2 is CC at initiative is great....but str 4 is not. Still could be useful.

It ultimately comes down to preferences, since there are way to make either work.

In terms of squad positioning, since you're firing at the closest thing, it would seem to make sense to put him behind one of two bikers if he's on the jetbike. The big thing with him is that he probably shouldn't be in a position to get shot up, because he should be charging fairly often, and then possibly issuing challenges. He sadly can't do much against T6+ or vehicles, but he's really good against the vast majority of infantry.

I figure that the way challenges work now, people are either going to keep their HQs very cheap to avoid big points loses if they get challenged by something mean, or go all out so they can do the challenging. Jetbike Sammael works pretty good unless they're above T5, but most HQs are infantry, and thus around T4, so forcing people onto invuln saves at I5 is great, especially because it allows you to eat sergeants and nobs and thus cut the whole enemy squad's effectiveness.

But yeah, either one can work, I just get antsy spending 200+ points for something with only 2HP and AV10 on the back. Knowing my luck, every opponent I would face would have a bunch of those obnoxious auto-glancing psyker spells, or worse, BA allies with magna grapples.

I voted for Jetbike (due to experience). Two reasons... one, he's way too good in combat with his AP2, Intitiative-striking sword to waste him in the speeder. Two, AV10 on the rear armour is a massive problem with things like Deep Strike, Outflank or fast melee units allowing the opponent to get to it before you can get him out of the way.

can the speeder still give RW command squads?

 Tiger9gamer wrote:
can the speeder still give RW command squads?

I say yes but I've seen no argued. I've also seen people say that since it says "use this profile instead" and it says vehicle but not character after it that Sammy can no longer be your warlod. I really feel this is RAW instead of RAI but as with everything that is up to debate. haha.

I personally love the landspeeder and usually focus on keeping it far away from cc and keeping something behind it to avoid those shots. It really is good fire support, I also like the jetbike but would switch between from boredom with monotony rather than pure strategy.

After trying him out for almost 20 games now on Jetbike, I think a speeder might be worth giving some thought over.

Sure he doesn't tie up enemies but his Str 4 sword rarely kills anything. He can't win against vehicle and can't do jack in shooting with his Get Hot! plasma cannon.

The most that he has done in all my games is to tank 4 ID Str 10 wounds from Wraithguard. He killed probably 4 khorn hound so far.

Would anybody take the speeder and Deathwing or Knight squad in a land raider? Two pieces of AV14 seem like they might be better than one.

Would deepstriking the speeder be a good idea?

Sammy can no longer be your warlod

If you check the rules for the Rapid Maneuver warlord trait, it specifically mentions the speeder there.

Therefore he must still be able to be your warlord. Ravenwing command squads requirements also include "and Sammael", with no specification on speeder or jetbike.

Would deepstriking the speeder be a good idea?

Maybe if they are bringing a lot of anti av14 weapons on the first turn, to be honest though I rely on the speeder to actually tank a lot of stuff that would be a threat to my bikes. Depends what you are up against. personally I like to use that TL bs5 shooting fom the first turn.

Would anybody take the speeder and Deathwing or Knight squad in a land raider?

I've just got a LRC and Deathwing knight squad to work with my ravenwing. The knights are optional tbh, though they have decent synergy with str 10 and rad grenades.
The LRC is great as it can work as mobile cover/LoS blocker, as well as benefiting from the Dakka banner.

Sure he doesn't tie up enemies but his Str 4 sword rarely kills anything. He can't win against vehicle and can't do jack in shooting with his Get Hot! plasma cannon.

Pretty much my experience too. I want my 200 points Ravenwing tax to have a little more impact on the game.

For 200 points, I expect him to have twin-linked plasma cannon and a AP2 Str+2 swords. Or perhaps make him tankier by putting him with 2+ armour. But no, GW would have just to kick the dead DA horse yet another edition.

S4 AP2 that strikes at initiative is actually really good, especially as he is WS6 so hits most other IC's on 3+. I played a game with him the other day against a drop Space Wolves list. In that game, he killed 2 librarians and a Chaplain in cc and his plasma cannon forced my opponent to spread out (even if it didn't do anything).

He's a bargain at 200 points, I just wish he had "The Hunt" as his Warlord Trait.

S4 AP2 that strikes at initiative is actually really good

Is it? Eldar scorpion claw, ap 2 str x2 at initiative is really good. str 4 is decidedly average and means he is really struggling vs anything T5 or more, Not to mention vehicles.

I would suggest your game vs SW was an exception and not the rule.

The S4 isn't too big a problem with Rad grenades.

In my experience, throwing Sammael in a Command Squad turns them into a serious CC unit. With the RW banner you're getting hit and run, FnP from the apoth, tons of high strength rending attacks, debuffs from grenades. It really is powerful.

The only drawback is you're missing an opportunity to put him in a regular RWAS, conferring his Skilled Rider.