Shadowseers and Harlequins Kisses

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**Purple Saturday**

I have been running 3x6 units of Harlequins all with kisses and the Shadowseer upgrade (all in falcons of course). I'm getting my clock cleaned regularly, but things are going more or less to plan... However, I just played an opponent who claimed that I could not give the Shadowseer a Harlequin's Kiss.

His argument: The Harlequin's Kiss is an upgrade for Harlequins and not Shadowseers.

My argument: It's a matter of order. I upgrade the Harelquin to have a kiss, then upgrade it to a Seer. The Seer's profile does not state that any war gear is replaced.

To placate my opponent, I played them with close combat weapons for the remainder of the game. 40K is really never worth getting worked up over, and it was a fully enjoyable game otherwise. But I am certain that I am right and he was/is wrong. Judge me Dakka.

**Happyjew**

DEldar Shadowseers can take them. Eldar Shadowseers cannot.

**Purple Saturday**

What is the argument for why Eldar Shadowseers cannot? If I upgrade a Harlequin who already has one, the codex says nothing about replacing that Harlequin's weapons.

**Ghaz**

Because he's no longer a Harlequin. He's a Shadowseer with an illegal option. What would be the point of restricting the Shadowseer from taking a kiss if you could get around that restriction by changing the order? Warhammer doesn't reward you for 'clever' army building.

**Purple Saturday**

There are other instances of upgrades only working if you apply them in a certain order. I can't think of any off-hand, but I know there was one in particular with Orks back in the day that GW upheld as completely legal.

The Death Jester specifically states that he trades in his other weapons for his cannon. Great. I'm totally on board. The troupe master comes with one standard, no reason to give him one. The Shadowseer's profile mentions nothing about his weaponry, it simple states that models gets additional toys. There is nothing in the rules that indicate the Shadowseer cannot have kiss. And yes, I see Happyjew, the DE rules are very explicit about allowing them to have kisses.

But can you point to a rule that defines how this works for Eldar? It's pretty established that character upgrades only limit and/or replace a models existing war-gear when stated explicitly.

**Happyjew**

Purple Saturday wrote:
There are other instances of upgrades only working if you apply them in a certain order. I can't think of any off-hand, but I know there was one in particular with Orks back in the day that GW upheld as completely legal.

The option for Big Shoota/Rokkit Launcha says any model can take them (similar to DEldar Harlequins). It was FAQ'd that you could give it to the Nob prior to swapping out the units weapons.

**Tri**

While i agree with the above ... GW don't always take the simple path, you may be able to convince your opponent.

Q. If a Boyz mob exchange sluggas and choppas with shootas, can a Nob take a power klaw or a big choppa?(p100)
A. You may upgrade the Nob to have a big choppa or powerklaw before you choose to upgrade the mob to have shootas, in which case the Nob is not affected by the mob’s weapon swap (as he no longer has a choppa to swap), does not receive a shoota and keeps his slugga and powerklaw / big choppa instead.

... Now you might say that this is irreverent but it shows that you can to choose which order to buy upgrades for a unit.
(for those that don't own codex orks the options are for the unit first and then for the character)

.. Damn ninja'ed I blame GW pdfs for being un copyable ...

**Chrysis**

It shows that while you can choose the order, the end result still has to consist of legal options. The Nob can be armed with a Klaw, so a Klaw armed Nob isn't a problem even if you have to use timing issues to get there. A Painboy isn't a Nob though, so even if you buy him 'Eavy Armour before you upgrade him to a Nob it's still an illegal loadout.

**Purple Saturday**

A Shadowseer with a Harlequin kiss is not an illegal option. There is no rule that says he cannot take one. If we are playing strictly RAW, he either has no weapons or he has whatever weapons the Harlequin had. If the Harlequin had a Kiss, and there is nothing here negating such a possibility, then the Shadowseer would inherit that weapon loadout.

**Happyjew**

Purple Saturday wrote:
A Shadowseer with a Harlequin kiss is not an illegal option.

Depends on the codex.

There is no rule that says he cannot take one.

Except for the lack of permission for a Shadowseer to take one in C: Eldar.

If we are playing strictly RAW, he either has no weapons or he has whatever weapons the Harlequin had.

Which would be a Shuriken Pistol and CCW.

If the Harlequin had a Kiss, and there is nothing here negating such a possibility, then the Shadowseer would inherit that weapon loadout.

Not necessarily. For example look at Ork Nobz and Painboyz. Painboyz are a upgraded Nob (like a Shadowseer and Harlequins).

Ork FAQ wrote:Q: Can a Painboy in a unit of Nobs take the ‘eavy armour, bosspole,
Waaagh! Banner or ammo runt upgrades? (p98)
A: No.

If an upgrade model could take options before upgrading then a Painboy could take the listed options.

**Ghaz**

Yes it is an illegal option because the rules do not allow the Spiritseer to take the Kiss. It would only be legal if he could take the Kiss after all of his upgrades. You can't make an option 'legal' by deciding to take it before another option. Once again, you don't get rewarded for so-called 'clever' army building.

**Purple Saturday**

[quote=Happyjew 544162 5913935 a3fae5798e2295f4eb6d8384a609c52d.png
...Except for the lack of permission for a Shadowseer to take one in C: Eldar.

...Which would be a Shuriken Pistol and CCW.

**Ghaz**

Permissive rules set. If the rules don't say you can do something, then by their very nature you can not.

The rules don't allow a Spiritseer to take a Harlequin's Kiss so he can't have one. They don't have to specifically forbid it.

**Purple Saturday**

I understand that completely. But I have done nothing illegal, nor done anything I am not allowed to do. Upgrade a Harlequin to take a Kiss, then upgrade that Harlequin to a Shadowseer.

In many cases, character upgrades dictate what that model has to take or replace their weapons with, but no such rule applies to the Shadowseer. Why would I assume that the Shadowseer upgrade would remove any other upgrades? (I do understand the grey area here, but this is one of the few things I've come across where the answer isn't particularly obvious).

**Ghaz**

Is there an option for the Spiritseer to take the Harlequin's Kiss, yes or no. If the answer is 'no' then you indeed have done something illegal. Your claims that you can give him the Kiss before upgrading him to a Spiritseer don't hold water, especially in light of the Painboy example from the Ork FAQ that shows otherwise.

**Purple Saturday**

The Pain Boyz example is the most damning evidence.

**Chrysis**

A Shadowseer (in Codex Eldar) does not have the option to buy a Kiss, so he can't have one. No matter how you arrange it, or what order you do things, it's not an option available to a Shadowseer so a Shadowseer can't have one.

A Nob can take a Power Klaw, it is an option for them. Thus fiddling with timing so the Nob can have a Power Klaw despite the whole unit exchanging one weapon for another is acceptable. A Pain Boy does not have the option for 'Eavy Armour, thus fiddling with timing to give it to him despite his lack of ability to buy it is not acceptable. The Shadowseer + Kiss is a case of the latter rather than the former.

**Purple Saturday**

Alright, judge me I asked and judge me you did Dakka. You have convinced me of my fault, for now...

**Tri**

Chrysis wrote:
A Shadowseer (in Codex Eldar) does not have the option to buy a Kiss, so he can't have one. No matter how you arrange it, or what order you do things, it's not an option available to a Shadowseer so a Shadowseer can't have one.

A Nob can take a Power Klaw, it is an option for them. Thus fiddling with timing so the Nob can have a Power Klaw despite the whole unit exchanging one weapon for another is acceptable. A Pain Boy does not have the option for 'Eavy Armour, thus fiddling with timing to give it to him despite his lack of ability to buy it is not acceptable. The Shadowseer + Kiss is a case of the latter rather than the former.

I brought up the Nob in the boyz unit as an example as the klaw is not always a legal option. If you upgrade the unit have shoota you have no choppa to replace.

Painboy on the other hand replaces his slugga and choppa with dok's tools and urty syringe. You cannot replace them if you don't have them. So you could have a situation of having a pain boy without equipment.

Which is why i mention Ork boyz as they are much closer, the shadow seer doesn't replace her equipment just adds to it.

**Chrysis**

Tri wrote:
Chrysis wrote:
A Shadowseer (in Codex Eldar) does not have the option to buy a Kiss, so he can't have one. No matter how you arrange it, or what order you do things, it's not an option available to a Shadowseer so a Shadowseer can't have one.

A Nob can take a Power Klaw, it is an option for them. Thus fiddling with timing so the Nob can have a Power Klaw despite the whole unit exchanging one weapon for another is acceptable. A Pain Boy does not have the option for 'Eavy Armour, thus fiddling with timing to give it to him despite his lack of ability to buy it is not acceptable. The Shadowseer + Kiss is a case of the latter rather than the former.
I brought up the Nob in the boyz unit as an example as the klaw is not always a legal option. If you upgrade the unit have shoota you have no choppa to replace.

Painboy on the other hand replaces his slugga and choppa with dok's tools and urty syringe. You cannot replace them if you don't have them. So you could have a situation of having a pain boy without equipment.

Which is why i mention Ork boyz as they are much closer, the shadow seer doesn't replace her equipment just adds to it.

Except that the Nob does have the option to buy a Klaw, while the Pain Boy does not have the option to buy 'Eavy Armour. You may have to time upgrades appropriately to get the Klaw on the Nob, but it is an option available to him. No matter how you time the upgrades for a Pain Boy 'Eavy Armour is never an option for him. Specifically the line "Nob may replace X with a Power Klaw for +Y points" exists, while the line "Pain Boy may take 'Eavy Armour for +Y points" does not. The FAQ is saying that you can decide the order of upgrades as you wish provided that no model ends up with Wargear for which the corresponding permission does not exist.

This conversation is very much closer to the Pain Boy than the Nob with Klaw, as a Shadowseer in codex Eldar does not have permission to take a Kiss while the Harlequin from which it is upgraded does. It is nothing like the Nob with Klaw, which is a case of two options being exercised which would swap the Nob's Choppa for a different weapon. There is no reason to even look at the Nob FAQ when the Pain Boy FAQ tells you everything you need to know.

**Punchingbag**

I think the Shadowseer is still a Harlequin. It is an upgraded Harlequin for sure, but still a harlequin. It is in the stat box labeled "Harlequins" and the entry doesn't specify that you replace a harlequin with a Shadowseer or even add a Shadowseer. Unless I am misremembering (which is always a possibility), the entry even specifies that the harlequin gains or loses specific rules and gear. If the harlequin is gaining or losing gear and rules then it is not being replaced with something else and is still a harlequin.

**Happyjew**

Shadowseer =/= Harlequin. Just like a DW Sergeant =/= DW Terminator.

**Purple Saturday**

Happyjew wrote:
Shadowseer =/= Harlequin. Just like a DW Sergeant =/= DW Terminator.

Yeah, I was never arguing this point as I agree completely. I've been waiting for someone to point out that narratively/fluff-wise a Shadowseer is still a Harlequin, as well. But that is just not supported in the rules. Death Jesters, Troupe Masters, and Shadowseers are all separate entries and characters. The DW problem is a decent example, but one of the contentious points for that long-standing argument is that the codex tells you what equipment the Sergeant does have, while the Shadowseer entry does not explicitly. However, as I already conceded, the Pain Boyz argument is the most relevant case-study and the best argued point.

Whether GW intended for Shadowseers to not be able to take Kisses is another point entirely. Maybe they worded the rule poorly, maybe not. It is impossible to determine. It is clear that in the DE FAQ, GW edited the Death Jester entry to disallow them from receiving Kisses but did not do so for Shadowseers. Of course this is only speculative. And Veil Of Tears now functions differently for the two codices, but that's a completely separate matter.

**Xerics**

The game works on implicit deny. This means that unless the book says you can do it, you can't. In this case upgrading a Harlequin to a Shadowseer changes the unit. You wouldnt give a Harlequin a kiss and then upgrade it to a troop master would you? Upgrade your units first THEN change their equipment. If the Shadowseer has no weapon options after he upgrades (according to C:Eldar) then he is stuck with his default loadout.

**Gwyidion**

The shadowseer is described in a box labelled 'harlequins'. The language on the kiss upgrade reads:

"Any harlequin may exchange its close combat weapon for a harlequins kiss .... X pts / model "

Any harlequin.

In addition to this, in the Shadowseer upgrade dialogue, the text states what the shadowseer gains. He doesn't exchange anything.

Furthermore, if the Shadowseer has to be explicitly given permission to have any loadout, one would have to assume that it would be done in a consistent manner as the troupe master and death jester, whose wargear changes are explicitly listed.

I really only see two resolutions - either the Shadowseer is a harlequin, the upgrade gains you certain rules, and changes nothing else (which is to be expected, given that the other entries specifically detail what happens to those character's loadout), which permits utilization of the upgrades available to 'any' harlequin.

OR

The shadowseer upgrade text states all permissable options, in which case the shadowseer has no weapons of any kind. Since the wargear loadouts on the left don't have (shadowseer only), you could even argue the shadowseer has no wargear of any kind. After all, he wasn't given explicit permission. So the shadowseer has no flip belt, nor does he have a holosuit. This follows from the entries describing the loadout for "harlequins", and by this logic, the shadowseer not being a harlequin.

This also follows from the entries for other units, which describe, at left, the wargear for your standard trooper, while detailing specific changes to sub-types with (exarch only), or similar. So, using the above logic, its pretty easy to argue that the troupe master, the death jester, and shadowseer are all messed up.

Alternatively, they are all "harlequins +".

**Purple Saturday**

Yeah, I presented that "either or scenario" myself. I do think it's worth a FAQ, and I don't really see why it's so necessary to keep them from getting it. I also think intention here is a bit unclear. But it sounds like we are just starting to rehash points that have already been brought up.

I think we put our heads together and hashed this one out argument by argument pretty well. Thank you Dakka.

**Happyjew**

Gwyidion wrote:
The shadowseer is described in a box labelled 'harlequins'. The language on the kiss upgrade reads:

"Any harlequin may exchange its close combat weapon for a harlequins kiss .... X pts / model "

Any harlequin.

In addition to this, in the Shadowseer upgrade dialogue, the text states what the shadowseer gains. He doesn't exchange anything.

Furthermore, if the Shadowseer has to be explicitly given permission to have any loadout, one would have to assume that it would be done in a consistent manner as the troupe master and death jester, whose wargear changes are explicitly listed.

I really only see two resolutions - either the Shadowseer is a harlequin, the upgrade gains you certain rules, and changes nothing else (which is to be expected, given that the other entries specifically detail what happens to those character's loadout), which permits utilization of the upgrades available to 'any' harlequin.

OR

The shadowseer upgrade text states all permissable options, in which case the shadowseer has no weapons of any kind. Since the wargear loadouts on the left don't have (shadowseer only), you could even argue the shadowseer has no wargear of any kind. After all, he wasn't given explicit permission. So the shadowseer has no flip belt, nor does he have a holosuit. This follows from the entries describing the loadout for "harlequins", and by this logic, the shadowseer not being a harlequin.

This also follows from the entries for other units, which describe, at left, the wargear for your standard trooper, while detailing specific changes to sub-types with (exarch only), or similar. So, using the above logic, its pretty easy to argue that the troupe master, the death jester, and shadowseer are all messed up.

Alternatively, they are all "harlequins +".

Upgrade characters that have different wargear is specified (such as Exarchs in Heavy Aspect armour) or the upgrade will tell you how their loadout is different from the basic (such as with Death Jesters). Shadowseers are as much a Harlequin as a Cryptek is a Necron Warrior (or a better example, as a Painboy is a Nob).