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Hi all. I used ogryns in a couple of matches today, one against guard and one against space marines and I was surprised how well they performed. My 6 man ogryns squad (including bone 'ead) killed an entire platoon of 30 men in the first game and killed 1 and a half space marine squads in the second, they would have done more but a tactical cock up from me caused them to die prematurely. So this got me thinking.

How do you guys rate ogryns? Do you use them and how do you use them?

I played them a bit in 5th.. However they stalled as soon as you came across an army that was even Competent!! at assault.. And this ed. is not assault friendly.. For that price allies suddenly become a viable and more competitive option
All I can suggest is wait and see what happenswith the new codex..

I might be biased because I play at lower points levels, but, 130 points for three T5 5+ assault models just doesn't do it for me. And then 40 points per model? Come on...

Though I'll admit, 13 strength 6 attacks on the charge is pretty damn good...

The problem with Ogryns is they're an expensive unit that doesn't really fit into the rest of your army. You need to assault with them to use them effectively, but they're fragile against shooting and they aren't going to be getting much support from the rest of your army. And even if you do invest enough in them to make them a viable threat you've taken a lot of points away from the shooting core of your army, which means you now have an army that can shoot and assault but can't do either very well. And that means you get split apart and tabled by focused armies.

Yer, it seems like they can do ok if you use them well and the opponent doesn't deal with them well, but in general you'll get more cost effective options elsewhere sadly. If that is fine for you, go ahead and use them - I plan to when I finish converting mine ; )

The FW models looks so cool for them so I got some for my buddy's birthday and hes always upset because if he wants to use them they have to be roughly shoehorned into any list.

Working on converting them from some vargheists right now. My plan is to load 5 of them in a chimera with a primaris psyker or commissar lord so they can get around quick and not break even if they lose a combat. Major point investment but they are not something people expect from guard players so you can take you opponent by suprise.

I've played them for fun, but mostly in 5th. I think they survived the change to 6th better than a lot of assault units, if only because they can just walk and shoot their guns instead of assaulting, and put up a wall of lead in Overwatch. They're too expensive, though. If they had a 4+, so at least they could ignore half the small arms shots (and they're basically heavy weapon proof thanks to T5 3 wounds), you might be able to use them more consistently.

 Dannyevilguy wrote:
Working on converting them from some vargheists right now. My plan is to load 5 of them in a chimera with a primaris psyker or commissar lord so they can get around quick and not break even if they lose a combat. Major point investment but they are not something people expect from guard players so you can take you opponent by suprise.

You know you can't assault out of a Chimera, right?

Squad of 5:
5 x 3x5str shots (assault guns) = 15 shots
On the charge = 5x 4 str5 attacks = 20 hits
Attach a cheap Commie with Paxe and LD check.

You're looking at 40+ str5 attacks in total on ful charge.

Miss-used a lot imho. Great unit just need to use them right (ie, let them get to combat (protect) or the ultimate gunline counter-charge unit).

Ogryns would be worth their points , or more, if they were given Rampage and It Will Not Die from the BRB.

 Ratius wrote:
Squad of 5:
5 x 3x5str shots (assault guns) = 15 shots
On the charge = 5x 4 str5 attacks = 20 hits
Attach a cheap Commie with Paxe and LD check.

You're looking at 40+ str5 attacks in total on ful charge.

Miss-used a lot imho. Great unit just need to use them right (ie, let them get to combat (protect) or the ultimate gunline counter-charge unit).

I may have to try that, I assume you mean a Lord Commissar? Also I can't remember off the top of my head what a power axe does as opposed to a power sword.

How do you think Commissar Yarrick would fit in with them? If for some reason I wanted to throw away around 200 points for one model.

 Ratius wrote:
Squad of 5:
5 x 3x5str shots (assault guns) = 15 shots
On the charge = 5x 4 str5 attacks = 20 hits
Attach a cheap Commie with Paxe and LD check.

Now let's look at what this actually means against a basic tactical squad with bolters: 15 shots = 1.66 dead marines. The marines get overwatch and first attacks in combat, but don't even kill a full Ogryn. Now on the charge those 20 attacks = 2.22 dead marines, for a total of 3.88. Now one of two things happens: either we're talking about C:SM and they fall back with combat tactics (with the Ogryns unlikely to stop them at I2 vs. I4), or combat continues for a few more rounds. The Ogryns probably win in the end, but this is pretty disappointing for a 200+ point unit charging a basic tactical squad.

To highlight how bad this is, let's compare them to rough riders (a unit generally agreed to be too weak to ever use): for 200 points we can get two 10-man squads. Overwatch kills about two rough riders, but then they charge (with very reliable charge distance), strike first, and kill an average of 18 marines. The tactical squad is overkilled to a point that its destruction in a single turn, before ever getting to hit back, is almost guaranteed.

Great unit just need to use them right (ie, let them get to combat (protect) or the ultimate gunline counter-charge unit).

And "using them right" is the problem. You're talking about a unit with no real durability or speed that has to stand out in the open for at least a turn before it can charge anything. And even once they get there you're not really doing all that much damage for their extremely high price tag.

That is hardly a fair comparison considering that the rough riders are almost specifically meant for killing MEQ.

And Rough Riders will never get there. Ogryns will actually take effort to kill.

The Ogryns probably win in the end, but this is pretty disappointing for a 200+ point unit charging a basic tactical squad.

You forget that your typical guard army will still out number a marine army despite the fact it's spent 200+ points on a unit. My point being the guard can afford to have a unit locked up where as it''ll be more off a blow to space marines

You're talking about a unit with no real durability or speed that has to stand out in the open for at least a turn before it can charge anything.

Not much durabilty? Unless you're running towards a plasma or melta devastator squad or you're standing in to open in the middle of your opponents army you should weather enough fire being toughness 5 and against most small arms fire being wounded on a 5+. Slow, well they're as slow as any other foot unit.

 Talore wrote:
That is hardly a fair comparison considering that the rough riders are almost specifically meant for killing MEQ.

Fine, let's do it against GEQs then. Ogryn kill 7.5 on the charge, rough riders kill 12.5. Rough riders may be specifically meant for killing MEQs, but ogryns are apparently meant for being useless.

Biophysical wrote:
And Rough Riders will never get there. Ogryns will actually take effort to kill.

Ogryn don't take that much effort, especially since their short charge range makes it difficult to keep them out of LOS. Rough riders, on the other hand, have the ability to hide and use their consistent 18" threat range to go straight from out of LOS to combat.

 watchamacarcess wrote:
You forget that your typical guard army will still out number a marine army despite the fact it's spent 200+ points on a unit. My point being the guard can afford to have a unit locked up where as it''ll be more off a blow to space marines

Except the ogryns cost more than the tactical squad. Locking up 175 points of my army with 210+ points of your army isn't a very good trade, and the ogryns certainly aren't contributing very much else. Meanwhile you're spending enough points to buy a Vendetta + melta vets, LR Executioner, etc, that will do a much better job of killing marines.

Not much durabilty? Unless you're running towards a plasma or melta devastator squad or you're standing in to open in the middle of your opponents army you should weather enough fire being toughness 5 and against most small arms fire being wounded on a 5+.

So what? You're wounded on a 5+ by bolters, but with no armor saves. A basic tactical squad with bolters does 4.5 wounds a turn to them, fire warriors wipe them off the table, and ACs/HBs/missile pods/tesla/etc love seeing ogryns. Obviously they're more durable than basic guardsmen, but don't forget that you're paying terminator-level points for them.

Slow, well they're as slow as any other foot unit.

And there's a reason why the successful assault threats in 6th are either fleet/cavalry/etc or have assault vehicles. Walking a bunch of ogryns up the field and hoping to successfully charge something isn't a viable use of 200+ points.

I fairly regularly use a mini deathstar made of ogryn. It consists of 7 ogryn, Azreal (DA; or if I get cheap a PFG libby), and Yarrick. I put Yarrick out front and LOS everything that manages to wound and is S9 or less onto the ogryn. With Azzy and Yarrick both in the squad they are T5 reroll all successful wounds with a 4++ save. Azzy and Yarrick do pretty decent melee damage to anything with a save and the ogryn usually help thin down hordes that try to tarpit. I wouldn't call this a tournament unit but it always does something good as it better for the whooping 730 pts price tag.

It has some serious survivability and necessitates AT weapons to deal with it. I usually run it with terminators or vehicles so I can force the opponent to either wipe the ogryn or kill the tanks (kill the tanks is the correct choice). It also acts as my board control unit in these lists to help me push the enemy into their board side. This is something IG has some serious trouble with normally and DWA termies cannot always realistically do.

I personally think ogryn without Yarrick are just bad as they have no synergy with anything in the codex and they are not even particularly survivable to small arms fire. With Yarrick they suddenly necessitate S6+ weapons fire to kill in realistic time frames. With the addition of a FnP or Inv save they start causing some of the high AP high S firepower they catch to be wasted. Which is nice, even if not game winning.

Ogryn are fine. The best way to think about them is as concentrated guardsmen. They're about as difficult to kill as their points in guardsmen, and they do about as much damage as their points in lasguns and bayonets. They have to worry about anti-tank weapons more, but then they also get to shrug off anti-infantry weapons a LOT better (Whirlwinds hitting ogryn just makes them laugh).

So, they're guardsmen, except they fix the worst problem that regular guardsmen have - force concentration.

The problem with them, then, isn't that they're too expensive, or that they're bad, but rather that they're unecessary. Odds are good you were already bringing a lot of lasguns and a bunch of wounds in a list wherein ogryn can excel. Why do you NEED to have more of that? The answer is that you sort of don't, so you sort of just might as well take more guardsmen.

That said, ogryn are an elites choice, which is more than just a semantic difference. Like an elites choice, they're not judged by their firepower (because you could take HS) or speed (because you could take FA), or durability (because you could take troops), but by their flexibility. With a small footprint, they can hide, and with lots of wounds and decent toughness, they can charge in. S5 en-masse means that they can take down lighter vehicles and force a lot of saves while S6 on the charge means that they can also win the first round of assault against a bunch of stuff if you bring enough ogryn (well, and their lord commissar will help a lot).

Like an elites choice, you look around and think to yourself "what do I need more of right now?" and, with some exceptions, ogryn can be shoehorned in to solve your problem.

 Ailaros wrote:
Ogryn are fine. The best way to think about them is as concentrated guardsmen. They're about as difficult to kill as their points in guardsmen, and they do about as much damage as their points in lasguns and bayonets.

And this is why ogryns are garbage. They're about the same as their points in basic guardsmen, but they aren't a scoring unit. The only thing you gain is a smaller footprint, but that's not a very impressive advantage compared to holding objectives and winning the game.

I have been considering using them as part of my chaos army. I was thinking of getting a psyker with a group of ogryn (5 or so) and use them as a mobile bunker for a telepath that can chew stuff up in CC and is survivable. It kinda goes with the rest of my army theme which tends o sway towards survivable units like spawn, terminators and plague marines.

Warboss Niblet wrote:
I was thinking of getting a psyker with a group of ogryn (5 or so) and use them as a mobile bunker for a telepath that can chew stuff up in CC and is survivable.

What exactly are you getting out of this psyker that justifies spending 150+ points on protecting it instead of buying another psyker (or more efficient offensive threats)?

I'm going to weigh in on the side of the ogryn here, for a few reasons.

Firstly, they are durable infatry, something guard is frequently lacking. While a valuable fact in its own right, it also makes them an effective distraction from the bulk of the army. While it could be argued that more threatening units are better for drawing fire, the majority of the killing power in a guard list comes from vehicles, and as such, does not effectively draw anti-infatry firepower from the valuable scoring troops. On the other hand, the kind of shooting that kills ogryn also kills guardsmen, and means that the guns that would mow down wave after wave of infantry instead have to choose: kill a single infantry squad, or damage the approaching ogryn. If the ogryn are ignored, they have the poential to do damage to enemy scoring troops (and while they may not be able to defeat specialist CC units, they will still slaughter PIS, Fire warriors and Guardians ect.), and if they are targeted, your scoring units are safe for another turn. It's a win-win situation

The same can be said of anti-tank weapons. If the ogryn get too close, the opponent is likely to pay them more attention that is necessary, using high-strength weapons to bring them down, thus protecting your tanks and artillery.

I find cost less of an issue with an Imperial Guard army, as in most cases, your scoring troops will not take up a significant portion of your points. With the best part of 100 scoring bodies costing just over 500 points, and with relatively cheap artillery available, you can afford to perhaps overspend for a unit in elites, escpecially one that can benefit the army as a whole for the reason above.

The other advantage of ogryn is the element of surprise. I have found many opponents do not consider the possiblilty of an aggressive CC unit being taken in an IG army, and therefore overlook the threat posed by ogryn. Either by sending them forward amidst an infantry advance, or by keeping them back for a counter-charge, they can easily be forgotten about or ignored, and do considerable damage to an overconfident opponent.

I also often use ogryn with a Biomancy Primaris Psyker, as enfeeble is able to dramatically increase their chance of wounding, while endurance can massively boost their survivability. Other powers from the discipline are less useful, but an argument can be made for iron arm, adding more high strength attacks to the charge. Of course, a force weapon will also help against the kind of targets ogryn might struggle with, such as MCs and multi-wound HQs.

Overall, I think they are certainly a valid investment, especially for foot-guard, and while maybe not the most optimised choice, they are far from terrible.

 Paradigm wrote:
The same can be said of anti-tank weapons. If the ogryn get too close, the opponent is likely to pay them more attention that is necessary, using high-strength weapons to bring them down, thus protecting your tanks and artillery.

You know what also protects your tanks? Bringing more tanks. Which you can do when you aren't spending hundreds of points on ogryn. For the cost of an ogryn distraction squad I can shove a LR Demolisher down your throat and say "deal with it or die". And I know which one I'd rather have.

I find cost less of an issue with an Imperial Guard army, as in most cases, your scoring troops will not take up a significant portion of your points. With the best part of 100 scoring bodies costing just over 500 points, and with relatively cheap artillery available, you can afford to perhaps overspend for a unit in elites, escpecially one that can benefit the army as a whole for the reason above.

Why overspend on a unit when you can continue to buy efficient units? The fact that you can probably get away with it and not lose too many games (at least in a non-competitive setting) doesn't change the fact that you're making your army weaker.

The other advantage of ogryn is the element of surprise. I have found many opponents do not consider the possiblilty of an aggressive CC unit being taken in an IG army, and therefore overlook the threat posed by ogryn. Either by sending them forward amidst an infantry advance, or by keeping them back for a counter-charge, they can easily be forgotten about or ignored, and do considerable damage to an overconfident opponent.

See above about rough riders. Same surprise factor, much better threat range, much more damage when they charge. If you're going to take a weak unit to surprise people at least do it right.

I also often use ogryn with a Biomancy Primaris Psyker, as enfeeble is able to dramatically increase their chance of wounding, while endurance can massively boost their survivability. Other powers from the discipline are less useful, but an argument can be made for iron arm, adding more high strength attacks to the charge. Of course, a force weapon will also help against the kind of targets ogryn might struggle with, such as MCs and multi-wound HQs.

And now you're making the unit even more expensive.

I appreciate the reduction in footprint. It's pretty easy for a foot guard army to get enough models for a traffic jam.

 Peregrine wrote:

 Paradigm wrote:
The same can be said of anti-tank weapons. If the ogryn get too close, the opponent is likely to pay them more attention that is necessary, using high-strength weapons to bring them down, thus protecting your tanks and artillery.

You know what also protects your tanks? Bringing more tanks. Which you can do when you aren't spending hundreds of points on ogryn. For the cost of an ogryn distraction squad I can shove a LR Demolisher down your throat and say "deal with it or die". And I know which one I'd rather have.

I find cost less of an issue with an Imperial Guard army, as in most cases, your scoring troops will not take up a significant portion of your points. With the best part of 100 scoring bodies costing just over 500 points, and with relatively cheap artillery available, you can afford to perhaps overspend for a unit in elites, escpecially one that can benefit the army as a whole for the reason above.

Why overspend on a unit when you can continue to buy efficient units? The fact that you can probably get away with it and not lose too many games (at least in a non-competitive setting) doesn't change the fact that you're making your army weaker.

The other advantage of ogryn is the element of surprise. I have found many opponents do not consider the possiblilty of an aggressive CC unit being taken in an IG army, and therefore overlook the threat posed by ogryn. Either by sending them forward amidst an infantry advance, or by keeping them back for a counter-charge, they can easily be forgotten about or ignored, and do considerable damage to an overconfident opponent.

See above about rough riders. Same surprise factor, much better threat range, much more damage when they charge. If you're going to take a weak unit to surprise people at least do it right.

I also often use ogryn with a Biomancy Primaris Psyker, as enfeeble is able to dramatically increase their chance of wounding, while endurance can massively boost their survivability. Other powers from the discipline are less useful, but an argument can be made for iron arm, adding more high strength attacks to the charge. Of course, a force weapon will also help against the kind of targets ogryn might struggle with, such as MCs and multi-wound HQs.

And now you're making the unit even more expensive.

As I pointed out, tanks will attract fire from anti-tank weapons, infantry will draw fire from anti-infantry weapons. Ogryn are capable of doing both to some degree. More tanks will protect the tanks, but will not reduce the amount of incoming anti-infatry fire, which is the fatal flaw of many guard builds. And while I agree the Demolisher is an effective weapon and forces the opponent to deal with it, it lacks the versatiliy of ogryn. Demolishers can do one thing and do it very well, but the ogryn can act as a spearhead, a counter charge unit, a tarpit or a distraction. I also prefer the longer ranged Russes in my lists, which do not fit the 'shove down the enemy throat' role, but I admit this is a matter of personal preference.

I am by no means putting ogryn on a plinth as the very best the guard can bring, but I do think they have a place in many armies without being detrimental. While arguably better choices are available, the ogryn are far from terrible, and as stated, can perform a variety of roles within the army.

The comparison to Rough Riders I find a little irrelevant, as the only similarity they share with ogryn is that they are an assault unit. Other than that, the two are immensely different, with RR lacking the durability, versatility and staying power of the ogryn. As I previously mentioned, the main advantage of the ogryn is their ability to draw fire over the course of a game. On the other hand, RR will draw fire for maybe a turn before being wiped out as easily as 10 guardsmen, which defeats the purpose of the tactic being discussed.

And while I realise the Primaris makes the unit more expensive, I am simply suggesting another way of running the unit that would benefit both the Primaris and the ogryn. I personally have found the combination effective, and again, the fact it is not optimised does not make it useless. The question at hand is not 'are ogryn the best?', it is ''how can ogryn be used?', indicating the OP and others in the thread have interest in using them. I am suggesting ways of doing so, not claiming they are flawless. We are all aware better choices are available, but that does not render the discussion of ways to use ogryn invalid.