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So I know Marines have to be devoted, good fighters and well versed in the use, care of and such for many different weapon systems. This can all be learned either by route actions or by hypno-therapy. My question is can a Marine be of average or slightly below average intelligence? Not stupid, just not considered bright. He would never advance beyond Battle-Brother (or what ever the chapter calls its base marines) but could he still serve?

I imagine the less gifted in the brains department would be the guys that you give an order to knowing it will be done exactly as you worded the order and the tactic, if for no other reason then they arent going to try to inovate. They would be the perfect backbone for a squad, since they would generaly realize they arent the sharpest tool in the shed, they would be the type "you point, I shoot'

Well, if they can make it past the trials and survive being a scout, then he can obviously fight.

I don't think an average or below average intelligence space marine would make it through the trials. I am also pretty sure the geenseed increases brain function. Being able to call up all the information a space marine may need in any possible combat situation including weapon systems and vehicles while exhausted in the heat of battle requires some serious brain power. By regular human standards marines would be genius or they wouldn't be marines.

I am hoping the concensus is as long as he can pass the trials....

In defense of the less then gifted, you can teach a dog to do many things, a cat, a monkey and an elephant. Most of them get taught by sheer repitition. I do however fear you may be correct :(

If you go by the Space Wolf novels, the Tech-priests implant the knowledge directly into each marines brain using "teaching machines". I assume that it's a process developed so that no matter where they get initiates from, each Chapter can count on their marines always having the know-how needed to function as a full Space Marine.

So maybe there could be a brother who had trouble accepting the psycho-conditioning, and ends up being "less schooled" than the other brothers.

I could easily many being combat savants, not really the brightest in everyday life, but coming into their purpose and liveliness when put into the thick of battle.

Going by GW's own writing, Space Marines like to recruit their initiates ... "malleable" (they need to be susceptible to hypnotic suggestion to make indoctrination work, which is part of why feral worlds are so popular for recruitment), but make them smart as part of the implantation process and chemical therapy. So, by default, Astartes should be rather clever due to the changes wrought upon them.

However, OP, if you are looking for loopholes, there are three things to consider:

#1: They are still individuals, so by the standards of his Chapter, a Marine might be considered a bit .. underdeveloped:

"A Marine is more than a human with extraordinary powers. Marines have extraordinary minds as well! Just as their bodies receive 19 separate implants, so their minds are altered to release the latent powers within. These mental powers are, if anything, more extraordinary than even the physical powers described previously. For example, a Marine can control his senses and nervous system to a remarkable degree, and can consequently endure pain that would kill an ordinary man. A Marine can also think and react at lightning speeds. Memory training is an important part of the indoctrination too. Some Marines develop photographic memories. Obviously, Marines vary in intelligence as do other men, and their individual mental abilities vary in degree."
- WD #247

#2: The Imperium experiences a recession in terms of scientific and technological knowledge, and this might (personal speculation) well affect a Chapter's ability to reliably make its recruits smart:

"Although the Chapters are careful to select only the most suitable candidates, not all neophytes survive to become initiates. This is due in part to the degeneration of knowledge amongst the individual Chapters that makes screening procedures less effective than they once were. Nor are operational methods entirely satisfactory in some cases. In many Chapters implant surgery is heavily ritualised, and is often accompanied by scarring, incantation, periods of prayer, fasting and all sorts of mystical practices which compromise medical efficiency."
- WD #247

#3: Last but not least, consider that contrary to popular opinion, this setting does not aim for universal consistency, and many sources of fluff deliberately contradict. You as the owner of your army are quite at liberty to ignore certain details that do not fit into your interpretation of the setting, just like a lot of novel authors occasionally go against what it says in the codices to pursue their own ideas. Just consider, too, that depending on how much you deviate from established standards reflects in other people's opinion about your fluff (some novel authors "suffer" from such backlash as well - I don't think we need to name them).

Hope that helps!

Haegr from the Space Wolf series is probably an example of someone like what you're looking for.

Isn't a popular saying in the Imperium.

"Blessed is the mind too small for doubt."

So I believe that while you may get some Marines with good intelligence, you will never find any Galileo's or Dante's among their number.

Blind obedience is what is most valued.
Don't want the grunts thinking...

Spec-ops guys in the U.S. military are usually smarter than average (it takes high entry test scores to become a SEAL, for instance), so I would imagine the elite of the 41st millennium are too.

Spec-Ops guys in the real world are not expected to commit mass genocide of any target they see if so ordered, including their own people.

As was previously mentioned "blessed is the mind too small for doubt". Also: "Thought begets Heresy, Heresy begets Retribution".

On the plus side, if you are good with blacksmithing, odds are the Salamanders would recruit you.

Hmm. Thanks for the opinions. I will have to think about the caption to go with the guy I built.

I built a Tac marine from the new kit with the mag in hand looking at it..sort of a "oh yep, theres bullets in it"

Well, I know the Flesh Tearers recruit from a population that is brutish and whose people's minds are "simple" and "underdeveloped". It's thought that this lower base intelligence makes the Flesh Tearers more susceptible to the black rage.

no, space marines (well after they become marines) are given a high IQ and intelligence then most AVERAGE people. It is stated so in the fluff several times in books that I can't remember the pages to. at worst marines are always of average intelligence. at WORST.

Average intelligence can still be rather underwhelming depending on the "bulk" of the people the average is based on!

It really depends on how you define intelligence.

If you wanted to look at Gardner's nine types of intelligence, for instance, you'd see huge differences between the categories. In comparison with most humans, Space Marines would be far below average in their Existential and Interpersonal intelligence levels. In other areas, they would be at the height of the human scale. (Body-kinesthetic, notably.)

Here's a breakdown. Areas a Space Marine might be above average in are marked in green. Below average, in orange. Average, in yellow.

1. Naturalist Intelligence (“Nature Smart”) - Designates the human ability to discriminate among living things (plants, animals) as well as sensitivity to other features of the natural world (clouds, rock configurations). This ability was clearly of value in our evolutionary past as hunters, gatherers, and farmers; it continues to be central in such roles as botanist or chef. It is also speculated that much of our consumer society exploits the naturalist intelligences, which can be mobilized in the discrimination among cars, sneakers, kinds of makeup, and the like.

The ability to discern enemies who are sick, wounded, or who have broken morale would fall under here. It behooves Marines to excel in this regard when fighting alongside allies, to discern who is most likely to break, and who is the most capable of handling tasks independently of them.

2. Musical Intelligence (“Musical Smart”) - Musical intelligence is the capacity to discern pitch, rhythm, timbre, and tone. This intelligence enables us to recognize, create, reproduce, and reflect on music, as demonstrated by composers, conductors, musicians, vocalist, and sensitive listeners. Interestingly, there is often an affective connection between music and the emotions; and mathematical and musical intelligences may share common thinking processes. Young adults with this kind of intelligence are usually singing or drumming to themselves. They are usually quite aware of sounds others may miss.

Other than their heightened senses, a Marine has very little use for this kind of intelligence.

3. Logical-Mathematical Intelligence (Number/Reasoning Smart) - Logical-mathematical intelligence is the ability to calculate, quantify, consider propositions and hypotheses, and carry out complete mathematical operations. It enables us to perceive relationships and connections and to use abstract, symbolic thought; sequential reasoning skills; and inductive and deductive thinking patterns. Logical intelligence is usually well developed in mathematicians, scientists, and detectives. Young adults with lots of logical intelligence are interested in patterns, categories, and relationships. They are drawn to arithmetic problems, strategy games and experiments.

Marines likely are no different from humans in this scale. The ones who excel are more likely to become leaders, it would seem.

4. Existential Intelligence - Sensitivity and capacity to tackle deep questions about human existence, such as the meaning of life, why do we die, and how did we get here.

The IoM has little use for this sort of thinking.

5. Interpersonal Intelligence (People Smart”) - Interpersonal intelligence is the ability to understand and interact effectively with others. It involves effective verbal and nonverbal communication, the ability to note distinctions among others, sensitivity to the moods and temperaments of others, and the ability to entertain multiple perspectives. Teachers, social workers, actors, and politicians all exhibit interpersonal intelligence. Young adults with this kind of intelligence are leaders among their peers, are good at communicating, and seem to understand others’ feelings and motives.

Marines who excel here are, again, likely to become good leaders, although it doesn't seem that they would necessarily be any better or worse than regular people in this regard.

6. Bodily-Kinesthetic Intelligence (“Body Smart”) - Bodily kinesthetic intelligence is the capacity to manipulate objects and use a variety of physical skills. This intelligence also involves a sense of timing and the perfection of skills through mind–body union. Athletes, dancers, surgeons, and craftspeople exhibit well-developed bodily kinesthetic intelligence.

And here the Marine excels! Anyone chosen to become a Marine almost undoubtedly had an above average level of intelligence in this area, and the training and implants of his transformation would only enhance it.

7. Linguistic Intelligence (Word Smart) - Linguistic intelligence is the ability to think in words and to use language to express and appreciate complex meanings. Linguistic intelligence allows us to understand the order and meaning of words and to apply meta-linguistic skills to reflect on our use of language. Linguistic intelligence is the most widely shared human competence and is evident in poets, novelists, journalists, and effective public speakers. Young adults with this kind of intelligence enjoy writing, reading, telling stories or doing crossword puzzles.

Those with a great reverence for an oral tradition, such as Space Wolves, may excel here (meaning that there is one area where Space Wolves are smarter than most of the others!) but on the whole, this area of intelligence does not hold much that is of a benefit to the Marines.

8. Intra-personal Intelligence (Self Smart”) - Intra-personal intelligence is the capacity to understand oneself and one’s thoughts and feelings, and to use such knowledge in planning and directioning one’s life. Intra-personal intelligence involves not only an appreciation of the self, but also of the human condition. It is evident in psychologist, spiritual leaders, and philosophers. These young adults may be shy. They are very aware of their own feelings and are self-motivated.

It seems to track that willpower is closely linked to this area, and it seems likely a Marine would be ahead of the curve here. Librarians an Chaplains even more so.

9. Spatial Intelligence (“Picture Smart”) - Spatial intelligence is the ability to think in three dimensions. Core capacities include mental imagery, spatial reasoning, image manipulation, graphic and artistic skills, and an active imagination. Sailors, pilots, sculptors, painters, and architects all exhibit spatial intelligence. Young adults with this kind of intelligence may be fascinated with mazes or jigsaw puzzles, or spend free time drawing or daydreaming.

Battlefield strategy would involve this facet quite a bit, so it tracks that a Marine would have above average intelligence here. Those who excel in three dimensional assaults (jump pack veterans, land speeder pilots, bikers) would likely excel here as well. Some of the most gifted void combat specialists have been Marines. (Vandred, the Exalted, of Aaron Dembski-Bowden's Night Lords series, would have had a near-genius level of intellect in this area.)

In any event, I hope that helps expand the issue to include some additional frames of reference.

Huh. I just realized that they have three below, three average, and three above. Guess they're pretty average after all.

Well, they need to think on their feet. A marine with initiative and a keen eye for opportunities will make it further than a man with no ambition and only doing as he's told.

Marines follow orders, but within those orders they are expected to carry them out in the way best suited for the situation.

In inquisitor their intelligence stat line is about 3x above average and is also beond human. The average human is 50 on the game where the max human stat is 100. Astarte come in way over 100, not git the book in front of me but happy to get the exact figurs tonight

Your bog standard battle brother is smart enough to repair and maintain his armament and weapons. He's also trained to have enhanced memory capacity which allows him to retain all tactical and combat knowledge as he serves. Depending on the chapter, some marines read alot (either scripture, or history) which probably combined with their good memory means they will be smarter than the average human.

A marine who is in fact more intelligent than average will usually, barring an early death, end up getting promoted to sergeant and possibly higher during his lifetime.

Chapter masters and first company commanders along with the librarius tend to be very intelligent individuals.

They could always eat some brains

Daston wrote:In inquisitor their intelligence stat line is about 3x above average and is also beond human.

No it's not.

Average Int score first, random Int range given in parentheses ->

Preacher: 40 (or 35-55)
Cardinal: 50 (or 35-55)
Battle Sister: 55 (or 45-65)
Naval Bosun: 55 (or 45-65)
Veteran Guardsman: 55 (or 45-65)
Arbites Enforcer: 65 (or 55-75)
Techpriest: 65 (or 60-70)
Inquisitor: 80 (or 70-110)
Space Marine: 85 (or 70-100)
Death Cultist: 90 (or 80-100)
Inquisitor Lord: 90 (or 70-140)
Officio Assassinorum: 95 (or 80-100)

Tau Envoy: 55 (45-65)
Kroot Mercenary: 70 (65-85)
Eldar Ranger: 95 (85-105)
Eldar Pathfinder: 110 (100-120)

http://web.archive.org/web/20071218082317/http://es.games-workshop.com/especialista/inquisitor/bestiario/astartes.html
http://www.games-workshop.com/MEDIA_CustomProductCatalog/m2350170a_m1320030_Inq_Rulebook_part_2.pdf


I'm a bit sceptical regarding Inquisitor's definition of intelligence, though, as it may refer more to cleverness and street smarts rather than brain power. Unless you really believe a Kroot mercenary would be better at math than a Tau Water Caste Envoy. See also Jimsolo's interesting post.

 Psienesis wrote:
Spec-Ops guys in the real world are not expected to commit mass genocide of any target they see if so ordered, including their own people.

As was previously mentioned "blessed is the mind too small for doubt". Also: "Thought begets Heresy, Heresy begets Retribution".

You obviously know nothing of what SpecOps operators actually do. They have to do some morally reprehensible things in their careers typically.

You obviously know nothing of what SpecOps operators actually do. They have to do some morally reprehensible things in their careers typically.

I am *quite* aware of what various Special Operations Groups do in the course of their professional lives. What they do, however, does not come close to what a Space Marine does.

SOGs may neutralize civilian targets, sure. They might perform "black bag" operations, sure. They may employ "aggressive interrogation" techniques, certainly. They may poison water supplies, destroy power facilities, assassinate military and civilian leaders, deploy drones, etc.

That's a Saturday afternoon in the Imperium.

Well according to Rogue Trader (1st edition, when models had Intelligence and Cool) a standard human was Int 7. A Space Marine was Int 8. So according to GW they are just a wee bit more intelligent than the standard human. Also of note that this was on a scale of 1-10, so both humans and Astartes are pretty smart.

 Happyjew wrote:
Well according to Rogue Trader (1st edition, when models had Intelligence and Cool) a standard human was Int 7. A Space Marine was Int 8. So according to GW they are just a wee bit more intelligent than the standard human. Also of note that this was on a scale of 1-10, so both humans and Astartes are pretty smart.

That mightt be because most rogue traders are geniuses, I think. After all, that was how they usually got to be rogue traders in the first place.

And that's why Rogue Traders were Int 8 as well. He was referring to standard humans.

That being said, with the kind of wealth and assets Rogue Traders operate, I don't think you have to be smart at all to get it. Just to keep it.

(a Rogue Trader is almost like a small trade empire all unto him- or herself - one doesn't raise the necessary influence and resources merely by being smart ... I think it's a multi-generational project, eventually resulting in the scions of wealthy traders some day inheriting enough to actually buy a starship)

A marine could certainly be considered not the brightest member of the group, compared to his Brothers anyway.

For a human he would probably still be pretty smart.

In terms of retaining and understanding information to use at a later day, I think it's a fair assumption to make that even a standard space marine would be above average, given all of combat doctrines, weapon maintenance etc. they need to be able to recall.

In terms of free thinking, I would agree with the majority viewpoint that they don't do much of that, what with the traitor legions marines all simply obeying their masters when told to rebel...