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Ok so I thought it was time to give this its own thread. For me I am a romuland build, as some of you may have read in the other thread.
So I started with:
30 Khazara
4 Toreth
3 Interphase generator
4 ferengi missile launcher

30 valdor
4 donatra
3 interphae generator
3 counter attack

12 science vessel
2 sar
5 ferengi EM pulse

100 total

I have play tested this once against a decent federation/klingon build and won. However my biggest concern is that it is basically a 2 ship build. Science vessel is there to hit a ship with EM pules & fly in the path of enemy ships forcing them to bump while evading like hell. Simply it is there to rob people of their action, possibly in good conditions 2 in a turn. The two fatties will be doing all of the shooting, but is that enough in this scenario?

From what I have seen in other reports a 2 fatty build does not do well. But could this be the scenario to pull it off because the enemy has to worry about you and the OWP? Or will 3 stripped down big klingon ships still be the answer? The idea of the science vessel pulling of shenanigans is appealing. In the last op ran up against a few of them w/muon and I shot them out of the sky, however the opposing players did not take adavantage of the ships maneuverability and flew right at me. The EM pulse has a longer range so it easier to work with over the muon.

I keep coming back to the 3 big ship Klingon list though, more hull points & more attacks w/3 ships though.
How are you guys looking at the month 2 OP

Like I said in the other thread, cloaked mines may be a decent thing to consider. They'd be pretty terrible in most other situations. They always get 3 shots against any ship at range 1 with no defense dice. If you can drop all three you've got 9 extra shots a turn AND You could make it so that you control part of the board.

My issue with this scenario is that the both of you can just fly around the planet avoiding each other if it gets really bad. There is no ship out there that can breach that distance, and flying across the planet is a pretty terrible idea. I think it's pretty poorly thought out.

I do like the idea of the cloaked mines, I think that they are going to make the romulans more of a threat once the praetus comes out. My biggest issues with them in this scenario are
1) every point counts, after the science ship drops the mines it is kind of useless, whereas the EMP can be reused
2) you have to place them within 2 of you your ship but out of 2 of the enemy, so given the limited space of the OP, you maynot be able to drop it somewhere useful. Might be more useful in month 3 to corral the opponent, but off topic
3) for now I only have 2 mine field token

I am not devoted to the romulans though, klingons are the first love, just wanted to do something different with the EMP, because not everyone has it so might not expect it.
through put this together last night at work
28 negvar class
5 martok
4 drex
4 interphase generator

28 negvar class
7 picard
4 interphase generator

12 science vessel
2 sar
4 ferengi EMP

99 TOTAL

same plan as before but more attacks, access to battle stations, same hull, plus shooting first most of the time. Still esentially a 2 ship build but martock can keep the EMP going every turn.

I think you might as well play the three Klingon build with Gowron, Martok and Donatra.

Neg'var 28
Martok 5

Vorcha 26
Gowron 4

Vorcha 26
Donatra 5

6pts left over. 15 attacks on the cloaked approach. If you're just going to joust down the side, this is the best build. I don't own a second Vorcha or I would seriously consider this.

That's basically what I had for the month 1 OP. BUt I want to be a little different because one of the guys from the event told me he planned to copy my list.I have 2 of everything out so far but the valdor & krayton(only 1 of them) and my store will be having the event after the next wave comes out so lots of possibilities.

After brooding about it at lunch, I'm thinking of this

Vorcha 26 31
Martok 5

Defiant 24 37
Picard 6
Cloak 4
Sulu 3

Valdore 28 32
Donatra 4

Martok can make sure that Donatra stays up and the Defiant is a TOUGH ship to bring down. I'm testing it out tonight.

Looks durable. Also looks like you have 3 points left I'd say use them for one of three possibilities
1) tactical officer on valdor
2) take named valdor, nice ability there
3) checkov on defiant

The three pts were allocated to Sulu, who comes first on my upgrade list over most everything.

Gordash wrote:
The three pts were allocated to Sulu, who comes first on my upgrade list over most everything.

Ah, that makes sense.

So, I was able to play my Defiant Cloak build...

Vorcha- Martok
Valdore- Donatra
Defiant- Picard, Sulu, Cloaking Device

The Defiant is VERY hard to hit with the cloaking device and sulu up. The psychological factor of an impossible to hit ship is pretty interesting. The problem is that Picard can't reenable the cloak and cloak on the same turn, so It's a bit cumbersome. Martok is a little worse than I thought he would be since he only gets to give Donatra actions.

I'm thinking of running something a bit different.

Vorcha 26
Terell 2
Cloaked Mine 4

NegVar 28
Picard 7

Valdore 28
Donatra 4

the cloaked mine will give me some much needed extra attacks in the Mirror match. A Neg'Var with Battle Stations should be awesome. I'm finding that the ships in the joust have a pretty good chance of losing their actions, so I'd rather not pay for upgrades that require actions or give actions. Put the cloaked mine on Terell because he can drop it in the planning phase where you're at about range 3 from each other. If you read cloaked mine, it says that it has to be dropped within range 2 of your ship- which means that you can drop it just in front of yours at about range 3, and the enemy ships will be in range for a few turns. The cloaked mine will net you 3-9 undefended shots per turn. In the joust, the ships will be within range of the mines fairly often. That's basically another ship worth of attacks.

I didn't realize that in OP2 there was really no way to avoid the OWP.

So why the list change ? Did the defiant not live up to expectations?

I haven't decided 100% at this point. I was thinking Terell could give a boost to the ships when the cloak can't come up. I found that Turn 3 I lost some of my actions and would prefer to still have an agility boost. The cloaked mines are there to give me some serious added firepower. If they provide a deterrent and the opponent starts trying to maneuver towards the OWP, then I think i'll be in pretty good shape.

The Defiant is great. 8 agility with Battlestations is crazy. The Maneuverability of the ship is not utilized in this scenario. In addition, you were right about the best captain being Sisko. Picard can't reenable disabled cards. So it takes three turns to get your 8 agility back. 1- reenable cloak. 2- Cloak and DONT FIRE. 3- Sulu. That's cumbersome. With Sisko and Martok, you can get that combo going in two turns instead of three. A very minor situation in which Sisko is better than Picard!- AND he gets a reroll!

So the Defiant is going to be great in scenarios with room to take advantage of the maneuverability. This particular scenario is all about the alpha attack.

I actually think Cloaked Mines are incredible. In this scenario, At about T2, you should be at about Range 4 if you're both moving 1-2 ahead each turn. You get to drop your cloaked mines as close to all three ships as possible outside of Range 2. If he moves out of the way, he's going to get some OWP love and he'll take hits for several turns while he struggles to get back into position. If he continues forward, all three of his ships will be in range 1 on the next turn and start taking Mine hits which are so good. If he sets up so as to make it a chase, you just hold onto the mines until you're close. Easy enough.

I see your point on the Defiant and agree. This scenario is going to be about hull points and attacks.

I like the idea of the cloaked mines, however I have seen some troubling threads around. I have seen a few people throw around the idea of going forward 1-2 and then backing up and going forward over and over again while the other side tears themselves up on the OWP. Do you think the use of mines would encourage this tactic? Though Klingons are screwed, no reverse for the warriors of Kalis.

Where are you reading that tactic? BGG?

The only ships that can do the move forward and backwards are the current Federation ships and the D'Deridex. They move forward 2 and move backwards 2. Easy enough, if you're playing for a tie. If I'm playing the Klingons, I race towards them asap. The key to seeing if they're going to use this tactic will be if they start on the opposite side of the board from you. If your captain skills are high enough across the board, then you're going to counter this tactic pretty quickly by deploying on their side of the board and just race towards them. You'll be there in three turns. You're going to maybe lose 2-3 hull points on a Klingon build.

The guy who is tooling up his list to do this is going to do it in any event- the mines won't matter. It's making me rethink my choice of Terell though. I'd have to drop him on the table first, which would encourage the opponent to deploy on the opposite side.

Yet another tweak would involve subbing Martok back in, taking out terell and picard, and throwing in Gorkon for 94pts. You could then take the cloaked mine on the Gorkon ship and you could keep Gorkon up the whole time while reducing the OWP to 2 dice per turn. I assume that you'd need a ruling from your T.O. that Gorkon reduces the OWP dice. That should even out the odds while you fly towards hit terrible backing up build.

What do you think?

I saw it mentioned at least twice over on Board Game Geek. I think it is a tactic without honor, but I don't see it working very well. To do it in the middle would be suicide for the guy, 2 OWP there, and on the ends you just fly across and hit them with their backs to the wall. However it does make me rethink taking Sar in my list. He is dirt cheap and I use him in a lot of lists but captain skill 2

Have I mentioned how much I hate this scenario yet.

I also dislike the scenario. It's making the game very min/max for my tastes.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
My friend played yesterday and won the event. He's saying that he didn't see any forward and backwards movement. The build necessary to pull it off doesn't have the firepower to win the scenario anyway. You're either running D'Deridexes, which are not going to down Klingon ships before they get fried OR they are running Mirandas and Galaxies and good luck with those ships and their, AT MOST 4 agility dice on a tricked out Enterprise D that costs 40+pts and will still go down hard to a good volley of fire from a klingon build. I'm really wishing I had another Vorcha though!

I would like to have seen either:
1) you could destroy the platforms
OR
2) range 1 with 3 attacks
The fact that the OWP can take out most of the ships in one volley means there will be a lot of klingon and romulan fleets. There is already a planet and 4 space junk tokens, even that is a lot for only month 2 and a game that has only been out 2.5 months. But I can't complain too much, my local store is not charging for the events. So I get to play and maybe take home free stuff

Well after playing the first month with a pure romulan build and meeting with very few other pure builds I decided that the next event I attend I would come up with something filthy and mean. Found out I can now attend a month 2 event ( originally clashed with work but date has been changed). Now I have to work on finding something that can survive and dish out a whupping. So far I'm thinking defiant with cloak and sulu (possibly Picard as well) as my damage soak. For whupping I'm considering Khan in reliant with ferengi missile launchers and attack pattern omega. All that is left is the third ship so far considering kraxon or ent-d but need to play test a bit.

 The Strange Dude wrote:
Well after playing the first month with a pure romulan build and meeting with very few other pure builds I decided that the next event I attend I would come up with something filthy and mean. Found out I can now attend a month 2 event ( originally clashed with work but date has been changed). Now I have to work on finding something that can survive and dish out a whupping. So far I'm thinking defiant with cloak and sulu (possibly Picard as well) as my damage soak. For whupping I'm considering Khan in reliant with ferengi missile launchers and attack pattern omega. All that is left is the third ship so far considering kraxon or ent-d but need to play test a bit.

If you have it they Krayton is not a bad option, a little cheaper than Kraxon. However after reading over the card some more the Ferengi missile launcher is not as good as we thought. It is two, 2 dice attacks. So you roll a 2 die attack they roll their full defend dice, then you do it again and they roll their full. Now two dice with crits going straight to hull is not bad against federation & dominion but against cloaked ships it won't do much. 2 attack dice against 5-6 defend dice aren't very good odds, even if you can do it twice. Not sure if this helps but just food for thought.

However if you have Daimon Tog with the "forwad disruptor banks" talent and the Kraytons ability to add a die, rolling two, 3 die attacks is more appealing.

 Mr. S Baldrick wrote:
However after reading over the card some more the Ferengi missile launcher is not as good as we thought. It is two, 2 dice attacks. So you roll a 2 die attack they roll their full defend dice, then you do it again and they roll their full. Now two dice with crits going straight to hull is not bad against federation & dominion but against cloaked ships it won't do much. 2 attack dice against 5-6 defend dice aren't very good odds, even if you can do it twice. Not sure if this helps but just food for thought.

However if you have Daimon Tog with the "forwad disruptor banks" talent and the Kraytons ability to add a die, rolling two, 3 die attacks is more appealing.

I realise that the ferengi missiles are a bit lack lustre but combined with the reliants +1 at close range and my current thought is Donatra near by combined with battle stations gives a good chance of making something stick (1 crit and its warp core breach time). I have 5 variations to test now (probably more when I sit down to it again).

OP2 Build 1

U.S.S. Defiant (Federation 24)
Benjamin Sisko (Federation 4)
Cloaking Device (Federation 4)
Hikaru Sulu (Federation 3)

U.S.S. Reliant (Federation 20)
Khan Singh (Independent 6)
Missile Launchers (Ferengi 3)
Attack Pattern Omega (Federation 3)

Krayton (Ferengi 22)
Donatra (Romulan 5)


Elite Attack Die (5)
Total Point Cost: 99

OP2 Build 2

U.S.S. Defiant (Federation 24)
Jean-Luc Picard (Federation 6)
Cloaking Device (Federation 4)
Hikaru Sulu (Federation 3)

U.S.S. Reliant (Federation 20)
Khan Singh (Independent 6)
Missile Launchers (Ferengi 3)
Attack Pattern Omega (Federation 3)

Kraxon (Dominion 26)
Donatra (Romulan 5)

Total Point Cost: 100

OP2 Build 3

U.S.S. Defiant (Federation 24)
Jean-Luc Picard (Federation 6)
Cloaking Device (Federation 4)
Hikaru Sulu (Federation 3)

U.S.S. Reliant (Federation 20)
Khan Singh (Independent 6)
Missile Launchers (Ferengi 3)
Attack Pattern Omega (Federation 3)

Federation Galaxy (Federation 26)
Donatra (Romulan 5)

Total Point Cost: 100

OP2 Build 4

U.S.S. Defiant (Federation 24)
Benjamin Sisko (Federation 4)
Cloaking Device (Federation 4)
Hikaru Sulu (Federation 3)

U.S.S. Reliant (Federation 20)
Khan Singh (Independent 6)
Missile Launchers (Ferengi 3)
N'Vek (Romulan 2)
Attack Pattern Omega (Federation 3)

Federation Galaxy (Federation 26)
Donatra (Romulan 5)

Total Point Cost: 100

OP2 Build 5

U.S.S. Reliant (Federation 20)
Khan Singh (Independent 6)
Missile Launchers (Ferengi 3)
Nyota Uhura (Federation 3)
Attack Pattern Omega (Federation 3)

I.R.W. Valdore (Romulan 30)
Donatra (Romulan 4)
Hikaru Sulu (Federation 4)

Federation Galaxy (Federation 26)
Clark Terell (Federation 1)

Total Point Cost: 100


Mmmm lots of playtesting to do!

That's a lot of play testing. I have 2-3 lists to test, but I did find a 2nd OP in my area so more chances.

IThe ferengi missile launcher is good if you have a way to boost it, which is why I like it on the krayton. But on its own, kinda meh for me. Though mine will get some more use omce the command tokens come out.

If you're set on running the Defiant with a cloaking device, you should run it as follows

Defiant (32)
Sisko
Cloaking Device

After that, I think you need Martok in a Vorcha (31 pts). You'll need two actions a turn to keep the cloaking device up, as you need to reenable it every turn. Picard doesn't let you enable cards/devices, so the Cloak +Sulu is 7 pts for stuff you can't do every turn in tandem. Sisko is the much better option, but only with Martok.

That's 63 pts. You've got 37 pts left over, which is a decent amount. If you want to run a Galaxy, you can run Picard in the Enterprise with Sulu for 37 pts. I've found the Reliant to be a Terell delivery system. It's too weak otherwise. If you want to run Donatra, I would probably just run the Valdore, with Donatra. 5 pts left over at the end of that to play around with.

Gordash wrote:
If you're set on running the Defiant with a cloaking device, you should run it as follows

Defiant (32)
Sisko
Cloaking Device

After that, I think you need Martok in a Vorcha (31 pts). You'll need two actions a turn to keep the cloaking device up, as you need to reenable it every turn. Picard doesn't let you enable cards/devices, so the Cloak +Sulu is 7 pts for stuff you can't do every turn in tandem. Sisko is the much better option, but only with Martok.

That's 63 pts. You've got 37 pts left over, which is a decent amount. If you want to run a Galaxy, you can run Picard in the Enterprise with Sulu for 37 pts. I've found the Reliant to be a Terell delivery system. It's too weak otherwise. If you want to run Donatra, I would probably just run the Valdore, with Donatra. 5 pts left over at the end of that to play around with.

You talk a lot of sense

The Defiant is enough to make me want to run Federation. Unfortunately, I'm a little too much of a nerd to just take the best of everything and throw them in a list, so I'm likely to stick with an all Klingon or all Romulan list. I can see myself running the Defiant and Klingons at some point, though. I have to admit that part of this is because everyone at the OP I was in for month 1 had mono lists, so I'm hopefully not going to be too disadvantaged by not optimizing as much as I could. Hm, I think that last sentence is an oxymoron...

I'm really glad our OP events are all Faction-Pure. Seeing what this game can do in free-building mode, reminds me of Magic the Gathering, and the hunt for unbeatable combos trumping skill at the table. :-p

NewTruthNeomaxim wrote:
I'm really glad our OP events are all Faction-Pure. Seeing what this game can do in free-building mode, reminds me of Magic the Gathering, and the hunt for unbeatable combos trumping skill at the table. :-p

I think you're wrong about faction pure events evening out the playing field. Let's take a look at OP2. OP2, from what I can see, is mostly a joust down one of the sides, or a chase of attrition. In the joust, the Klingon builds have the upper hand. A NegVar, two Vorchas, Gowron, Martok and another captain are clearly the best list for straight up flying at something and killing it. None of the other ships in the game have the same killing power, with cloaking and come abouts. So, if you're going faction pure, that's a pretty fantastic list. Congrats to the Klingon players in your events, because they have the upper hand this month.

Can you guys change your faction month to month? That would seem to give a big advantage to the individuals who can review the scenario and have pockets wide enough to purchase a variety of lists in the various factions.

Restricting your list to faction pure means that individuals who can only purchase say one or two ships this month, may have to stick to their faction, instead of exploring the game more widely. Some kid who bought a bunch of Federation ships this month wants to buy the Defiant, but is going to get clobbered HARD. Why not let that kid bring that badass Neg'Var with Martok, put it in a list with Sisko and the Defiant? How is that not fluffy in the context of the Dominion War?

Instead, keeping it Faction Pure, Terell will be on the Reliant, fighting alongside Picard on the Ent D with Sulu piloting the thing. How does that make any sense in the context of the Dominion War?

And don't even get me started on the weakness of the Dominion as faction pure lists. You can justify adding in some of the better pilots to a Dominion list by way of Changelings.

Needless restrictions hurt those on a fixed budget month to month.

Star Trek fans without big imaginations are a sad breed indeed.

I think you're being unnecessarily hard on the idea of sticking to faction. I agree that Sisko on the defiant + Martok and Neg'Var is fluffy...but Picard piloting the Neg'Var or Sulu on a Valdore is not. And that's the kind of list that bugs me. It's pretty unlikely that either of those scenarios would have happened, and certainly not during the Dominion war.

Now, you're correct that some lists have serious issues if they are sticking within faction. Dominion are definitely gonna have a rough time of it, and Romulans have a very hard time coming up with enough firepower without adding some other stuff in. But I enjoy trying to figure out ways to fill in the holes in each list without adding in various guys or weapons from other factions.

And I'm not entirely convinced that Klingons are the end-all be-all for the month 2 event. Maybe I'm wrong, since we haven't had ours yet.

TL;DR. You shouldn't try and tell the fluff-bunny that he's enjoying the game wrong any more than he should tell you that using whatever upgrades in whatever ships you want is wrong.

/soapbox

More ideas after thinking

The Mixed Bag Fleet

I.K.S. Kronos One (Klingon 24)
Martok (Klingon 5)

Romulan Valdore (Romulan 28)
Donatra (Romulan 4)
Hikaru Sulu (Federation 4)

Krayton (Ferengi 22)
Toreth (Romulan 5)
Missile Launchers (Ferengi 3)
Attack Pattern Omega (Federation 4)

Total Point Cost: 99

Features reasonably high skilled captains an evil attack possibility and a strong 'shield' ship.

Klingon Pure

I.K.S. Negh'var (Klingon 30)
Gowron (Klingon 4)
Drex (Klingon 4)

I.K.S. Maht-H'A (Klingon 28)
Martok (Klingon 5)

Klingon Vor'cha (Klingon 26)
Gorkon (Klingon 3)

Total Point Cost: 100

This goes about the OWP problem from the other angle using Gorkon to drop them to 2 attack dice (Martok to re-enable him) and has the advantage of being completely faction pure.

I like that second list a good bit. I hadn't thought of Gorkon, but that seems like he'll make the Vor'cha a good tank for the OWPs.

Personally if you are going pire klingon I would drop the M'taha down to a generic vorcha and take Koloth over gorkon. Kot0loths ability is much better and has no negative to it. Plus high captain skill.