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I've seen a couple posts about various different 3d printing projects (guns, medical supplies, etc.) but I haven't seen something like this before.

http://www.shapeways.com/

Stumbled on this site today and I'm blown away! This company does everything, for a rather silly good price.

Edit: Noticed that it's a collection of companies, not just one giant one, derp. So prices are different depending, double derp.

Yep it's pretty known but even their frosted ultra detail isn't enough for many wargaming models. There are pricier companies that offer higher detail- good enough to be masters for casts.

 RiTides wrote:
Yep it's pretty known but even their frosted ultra detail isn't enough for many wargaming models. There are pricier companies that offer higher detail- good enough to be masters for casts.

Depends on the detail you need. Some of the X wing people have been printing up custom ships that would look really good painted and the historical community has really taken an interest in making 1:100 and smaller vehicle models, where ultra detail isn't necessary.

I agree that we're a ways off from seeing 3D printed 28mm models that look good, but for smaller scale stuff it seems like its pretty possible. I look forward to seeing if people end up printing the experimental or field modded vehicles that wouldn't be worth a model companies time to make, but are interesting nonetheless.

Some of the historical prints on that website are 1/3000th and the detail is astonishing.

Can't wait to see if GW picks up on this sort of thing down the line for their own models.

 Frankenberry wrote:
Some of the historical prints on that website are 1/3000th and the detail is astonishing.

Can't wait to see if GW picks up on this sort of thing down the line for their own models.

GW (and most of the other minis makers) have been using 3D Designers for years, this includes printing off 'master' copies on machines of much higher quality then what Shapeways offers. 3D Printing is not yet a viable option for mass production as it takes too long to produce a quality print compared to any other production method.

 Cyporiean wrote:

 Frankenberry wrote:
Some of the historical prints on that website are 1/3000th and the detail is astonishing.

Can't wait to see if GW picks up on this sort of thing down the line for their own models.

GW (and most of the other minis makers) have been using 3D Designers for years, this includes printing off 'master' copies on machines of much higher quality then what Shapeways offers. 3D Printing is not yet a viable option for mass production as it takes too long to produce a quality print compared to any other production method.

Well of course its not a viable means of mass production.

What makes 3D printing handy is for extremely limited runs, or personal use. If I owned a printer I wouldn't print 300 tanks with it. I'd probably produce 20 or whatever the max amount is for the game I play and then be done with it, unless I lost a model or wanted to test a paint scheme.

That's where the 3D printer has its advantage. Lets say I want an M44 Hungarian Tas tank (a knockoff panther prototype) only one was ever made. No sane company would bother making that because demand would be so low, but if I make or find a design online and print it for myself I can get a really cool tank that I would never be able to get otherwise.

 MrMoustaffa wrote:

 RiTides wrote:
Yep it's pretty known but even their frosted ultra detail isn't enough for many wargaming models. There are pricier companies that offer higher detail- good enough to be masters for casts.

Depends on the detail you need. Some of the X wing people have been printing up custom ships that would look really good painted and the historical community has really taken an interest in making 1:100 and smaller vehicle models, where ultra detail isn't necessary.

I agree that we're a ways off from seeing 3D printed 28mm models that look good, but for smaller scale stuff it seems like its pretty possible. I look forward to seeing if people end up printing the experimental or field modded vehicles that wouldn't be worth a model companies time to make, but are interesting nonetheless.

Hello, I saw your post and I feel that perhaps these images here of my coming 38mm line will perhaps change that view on what scale miniatures can be printed in .






I think we very much can now print miniatures in 28 - 30 or in the case of these guys 38mm scale . I agree however 3D printing will never really reach that level of mass scale productions unless some seriously unthinkable tech progression happens in that field. Currently casting miniatures from the printed master still is the cheapest and most effective way to produce a range of miniatures that are playable on the table top .

all in regards I am just posting this to help clear up the current view, these pictures don't do the masters justice !.

with best regards - Shawn.

While that's a decent quality model from a 3D printer, it's not even close to the level of detail cast miniatures had 20 years ago. Which is the problem with the technology right now - good prints are low on detail. When you can get something like this 3D printed, sign me up for the technology.

Right now, it's exactly what RiTides said - good for master models which will get some cleanup and probably detail added before being cast.

 -Loki- wrote:
While that's a decent quality model from a 3D printer, it's not even close to the level of detail cast miniatures had 20 years ago. Which is the problem with the technology right now - good prints are low on detail. When you can get something like this 3D printed, sign me up for the technology.

Right now, it's exactly what RiTides said - good for master models which will get some cleanup and probably detail added before being cast.

I could say with a high regard that if my sculptor and I put much more work into the details of these miniatures I could get fairly close too the image you sent me , take for example the first image below :




The back vents of the miniature are really stunning in detail, as I said the image does not do the miniatures justice they really are very crisp and detailed. I would also recommend checking out my 3D printer http://www.moddler.com/portfolio The level of detail on these miniatures I would say can even possibly surpass Infinities, and yes I know that is a big thing to say, but the advantage of digital sculpting means you can sit their for as long as you want editing any part of the miniature to be perfect. Yes the tech can get better for terms of printing detail in the cloth, but even green sculptors will have issues at that point .

However I think their has been some mix up's in what I was talking about, I agree with Riptide the idea of mass printing miniatures from the printing machine to the customer is just not going to happen, it is more efficient in cost to print the master ship it too a caster and get the pieces casted and sent back to you, than using the printing machine as a caster.

Let alone it all counts what material your printing in , for if the miniature can withstand being even on a gaming table . However I feel it comes down to what type of game / company plan you have for your miniatures range. For more skirmish individual / RPG style games, green sculpting seems to be the better way in terms of cost. However if each individual character is more or less similar in most ways of shape and look , or your creating a range of soldiers of all types I think digital sculpting is the way to go.

However this is all in the end our own views and I respect everyone having their own view regardless if I agree or disagree with them.

so with that said, with best regards - Shawn.

Could you post a size comparison, please?

underfire wargaming wrote:
The back vents of the miniature are really stunning in detail, as I said the image does not do the miniatures justice they really are very crisp and detailed. I would also recommend checking out my 3D printer http://www.moddler.com/portfolio The level of detail on these miniatures I would say can even possibly surpass Infinities, and yes I know that is a big thing to say, but the advantage of digital sculpting means you can sit their for as long as you want editing any part of the miniature to be perfect. Yes the tech can get better for terms of printing detail in the cloth, but even green sculptors will have issues at that point .

Show me.

I hear lots of people say things like what you're saying. I've never seen anyone present a printed miniature without additional work that looks very good at all. Yours are, to be fair, some of the nicest I've seen, and yes, those vents on the back of that missile launcher are quite well done. That doesn't show me a complete miniature that comes close to what some of the better companies are producing. When I hear the big players in the industry, even the bigger 'garage' companies saying 3D printing is great for master models, but require cleanup and additional work to get ready, I believe them - I doubt Raging Heroes want to pay for a master model that requires more work if they could get an exact replica of their original 3D art, afterall.

I may sound like a nay sayer, but I would dearly love 3D sculpting to become a big thing. The possibilities are incredible, especially for miniature wargaming. I keep getting visions of software that will load up a 3D model of something that I can pose in any stance I want, add bits on, add a weapon, hit print and have a fully unique, posed model that I want. I see not-Krogans on Shapeways and dearly want someone to make an Asari kill-team that I can order because I really want 28mm Asari. I want 3D printing to be a thing for wargaming, but the low detail prints I've seen, and word from larger companies who use 3D prints right now as masters, tells me it's just not there for wargaming.

It's easy to say 'well if we made the original 3D model better, it would surpass an Infinity model', but it so far hasn't been demonstrated with physical output. Yes, that was a big claim to make, when the 3D printed models I see barely surpass 20 year old boob-Orcs from GW.

Again, show me, I want to believe.

PLease don't post infinity if you want to show details.
Infinity have awesome STYLE, POSING and awesome painting, but the amount of details is not that superior.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Bye the way: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=60jaOOXTOgI

3d printing service at ASDA for 40 pounds. SURE it's not 28mm... but holy heck that is awesome.

RoninXiC wrote:
PLease don't post infinity if you want to show details.
Infinity have awesome STYLE, POSING and awesome painting, but the amount of details is not that superior.

I am sorry, but you sound as if you have not handled a CB miniature (especially one done the last 4 years), The amount of detail is of charts especially the really small ones.

On topic, I feel that companies and game stores could capitalize on 3D printing technology by printing miniatures on demand, sure it will never be good for mass production on spot, but would allow negligible moving models (even units) to exist and be printed on demand.

Of course it would be something a large part of the producing companies need to adapt in mass before it happens, but its a viable way to adapt this technology.

RoninXiC wrote:
PLease don't post infinity if you want to show details.
Infinity have awesome STYLE, POSING and awesome painting, but the amount of details is not that superior.

Since you can't show me a 3D printed model equivalent of a model you claim doesn't have very good detail, doesn't that sort of go against 3D printing? Not to mention that's a fairly ludicrous claim, CB's models win awards for a reason. Their early models I'll grant you, but the last few years their stuff has been the top of the market.

Okay, show me a 3D printed model with detail equivalent to this. Or this. Or this.

Again, I want to believe 3D printing is going somewhere for wargaming. I'm not being a nay sayer. I'm merely asking that proponents of 3D printing stop claiming that 3D printing can do it, or prints to 'table top standard', or that like you, some of the best casts on the market right now aren't good. That's dodging the question. I want to see some fresh out of the printer models that are up there with the best of what GW, Privateer Press, Corvus Belli and others are doing. Because I keep hearing the claim, yet never see the proof.

I was under the impression that the hawk wargames vehicles where all digitally designed with 3D masters printed out, like the shaltari in your third example above.

If that's so, I'd very much like to see the fresh out of the printer model.

3D printing for prototypes/masters has been pretty much amazing for the last couple of years.

Hawk Wargames
Prodos
Spartan Games
Maxmini
Raging Heroes
CNC Workshop (makes MDF/HDF!)
Kingdom death
etc.

They all design on the PC, use a 3d printer and then use traditional plastic/resin/metal casting for mass production. They ARE equally detailed than any traditionally made miniature.

If you have not seen any 3d printed minatures, you had your eyes closed for way too long.




That's just one of MANY examples.

UNCLEBADTOUCH wrote:
I was under the impression that the hawk wargames vehicles where all digitally designed with 3D masters printed out, like the shaltari in your third example above.

That is indeed true as is true for some Infinity models and GW models, not sure if PP first attempt to digital sculpting is the characters for the CG they kickstarted recently.

The question is not if a 3D sculpted and printed sculpt can have detail, on par with the traditional sculpts (especially in the inorganic department, IIRC HW went for traditional sculpting for the infantry to have better organic forms, it might have also been a limitation of technology to that small details or a mixture) if a sufficiently experienced digital sculptor and a sufficiently advanced printer is selected, but at what point the commercial user can see it realized for its own use, making prototypes for traditional production is one thing, making prints for playable models is another thing entirely.

RoninXiC - Thanks for posting those guys I have been searching for them but could not remember the name of the game :/!. They I feel are very stunning and a good match to any infinity or high end detail miniatures.

Show me.

I hear lots of people say things like what you're saying. I've never seen anyone present a printed miniature without additional work that looks very good at all. Yours are, to be fair, some of the nicest I've seen, and yes, those vents on the back of that missile launcher are quite well done. That doesn't show me a complete miniature that comes close to what some of the better companies are producing. When I hear the big players in the industry, even the bigger 'garage' companies saying 3D printing is great for master models, but require cleanup and additional work to get ready, I believe them - I doubt Raging Heroes want to pay for a master model that requires more work if they could get an exact replica of their original 3D art, afterall.

I may sound like a nay sayer, but I would dearly love 3D sculpting to become a big thing. The possibilities are incredible, especially for miniature wargaming. I keep getting visions of software that will load up a 3D model of something that I can pose in any stance I want, add bits on, add a weapon, hit print and have a fully unique, posed model that I want. I see not-Krogans on Shapeways and dearly want someone to make an Asari kill-team that I can order because I really want 28mm Asari. I want 3D printing to be a thing for wargaming, but the low detail prints I've seen, and word from larger companies who use 3D prints right now as masters, tells me it's just not there for wargaming.

It's easy to say 'well if we made the original 3D model better, it would surpass an Infinity model', but it so far hasn't been demonstrated with physical output. Yes, that was a big claim to make, when the 3D printed models I see barely surpass 20 year old boob-Orcs from GW.

Again, show me, I want to believe.

RoninXiC wrote:
3D printing for prototypes/masters has been pretty much amazing for the last couple of years.
They all design on the PC, use a 3d printer and then use traditional plastic/resin/metal casting for mass production. They ARE equally detailed than any traditionally made miniature.

If you have not seen any 3d printed minatures, you had your eyes closed for way too long.

Spoiler:

That's just one of MANY examples.

You might want to update your image RoninXiC, those are all traditionally sculpted. Most of the Kingdom Death figs are sculpted by Thomas David and per his blog, all are in Fimo and Magic Sculpt. Even the ones for the Monster game.


http://art.thomasdavid.over-blog.com

They are being scanned into 3D and reworked for tooling.

But back to 3D printing, yes, very nice figs are capable of being turned out. MaxMini put a little article talking about their 3D printing work.


http://maxmini.eu/blog/miniatures-out-of-thin-air.html

We are at the point where great figs can be put out that are on par with traditional sculpts, the only barriers are cost and material durability.

Holy crap those Ork heads are awesome...

At the Enter the Citadel event earlier this year, someone brought this up to Jes Goodwin. He says GW uses 3D printers for rapid prototyping, and we all know GW uses 3D modeling software for the majority of their sculpting these days. He said 3D printer quality is a good 5-10 years away from being at the same level you're seeing from plastics like GW's, and I'm happy to take his word for it.

-Loki- wrote:

RoninXiC wrote:
PLease don't post infinity if you want to show details.
Infinity have awesome STYLE, POSING and awesome painting, but the amount of details is not that superior.

Since you can't show me a 3D printed model equivalent of a model you claim doesn't have very good detail, doesn't that sort of go against 3D printing? Not to mention that's a fairly ludicrous claim, CB's models win awards for a reason. Their early models I'll grant you, but the last few years their stuff has been the top of the market.

Okay, show me a 3D printed model with detail equivalent to this. Or this. Or this.

Again, I want to believe 3D printing is going somewhere for wargaming. I'm not being a nay sayer. I'm merely asking that proponents of 3D printing stop claiming that 3D printing can do it, or prints to 'table top standard', or that like you, some of the best casts on the market right now aren't good. That's dodging the question. I want to see some fresh out of the printer models that are up there with the best of what GW, Privateer Press, Corvus Belli and others are doing. Because I keep hearing the claim, yet never see the proof.

That third link you posted IS a 3d printed model. All of Hawk Wargames' stuff was, at least initially (and I can't see them changing).

This is from Statuesque Miniatures:


These ladies were printed from 3d sculpt files, at true 28mm "scale". They are every bit as detailed as anything else on the market, and more detailed than most.

Brother SRM wrote:At the Enter the Citadel event earlier this year, someone brought this up to Jes Goodwin. He says GW uses 3D printers for rapid prototyping, and we all know GW uses 3D modeling software for the majority of their sculpting these days. He said 3D printer quality is a good 5-10 years away from being at the same level you're seeing from plastics like GW's, and I'm happy to take his word for it.

You would be silly to do so. Of course he's going to tell you that no one can make miniatures from 3D prints that are as good as GW's. Why in the world would he do otherwise?

There is ample evidence that he is either lying or grossly misinformed however. See the Statuesque figures or the MaxMini ones posted above.

Also, just as an FYI to everyone posting that Infinity is an example of the best level detail that can only be achieved via hand-sculpting: Corvus Belli has started using 3d sculpting...

3d printing is viable for 28mm models (and smaller). It is just not cost-effective for home use yet.

~Eric

 Taarnak wrote:

Also, just as an FYI to everyone posting that Infinity is an example of the best level detail that can only be achieved via hand-sculpting: Corvus Belli has started using 3d sculpting...

I do not think anybody did so in this thread.

CB is a clever company they will test and adapt technologies as they see fit, 3D sculpting, especially for mechanical things that need many repetitive things is really good, as you said home usage is the tricky part at the moment.

Loki did say that actually. If the latest stuff Infinity has is the challenge, since CB uses 3D sculpting and printers to get masters then it's already "there". It's just those machines cost in the 6 figure range and are not fast.

Almost all my stuff is done via 3-D


Granted this isn't "infinity level detail" but it's certainly not bad for a 3 year old sculpt when I was just cutting my teeth on learning 3d and it's paint ready straight from the printer without needing any work. While it works incredibly well for master models it does have a price tag most people wouldn't want for their standard minis. Prices are falling pretty quickly and we're probably only about 5 years away from having home printers than can deliver outstanding miniature detail.

Shapeways isn't what you want to judge industry standard by, they provide a decent entry level product but there's far better options for printing.


These can be even better but I'm limited by my 3d skills, I still consider myself very wet behind the ears as there's a ton to learn before you start getting relaly solid results. You can push the details much futher than what we see being used on most gaming stuff and a lot of artists are still a bit behind on the learning curve. They are catching up rapidly and as a result you'll see even more 3d being utilized in miniatures production very shortly. Handsculpting won't ever be replaced, but the majority of sculpting work for gaming will become 3d based within the next several years.


50mm tall:




Or a more recent model at 65mm tall:

@Paulson Games, do you think home printers will be effective? One issue MaxMini pointed out was each fig takes a couple hours to print out. Also, they didn't see printing speed changing, having reached the limits of technology. Spending a week printing out an army may not be that attractive to some people.

Mentioned this in other threads, but I'm not sure these printers will come down to the price that people think they will. Was comparing cheap inkjets vs high quality fine print printers. There is still a major cost gap between the two. An artist friend complained about having to replace his art printer and it was still $1000. We may have cheap makerbot style printers for $50, but the type needed for miniatures may still be at the higher end of costs.

I could see it in the hands of sculptors like you, since it bypasses the print shops, but not quite for every hobbyist.

Do you know what printers your figs were created on? Or did the service not tell you?

Shapeways uses an Objet styled printer which is an older format using a combination of abs plastic and wax binding agents.

I believe the machine maxmini is using a solidscape machine which produces parts in a wax based material. They are typically used for jewelry making and from what I understand their drive system can be troublesome as they use a number of small belts to move the nozzle head around.

Moddler uses a perfactory machine which uses a resin base and can be infused with ceramics for heat resistance allowing it to be used with vulcanized molds for metal casting.


There are several other technologies that can also be used that use resins in the process instead of wax which may result in a slightly faster process. Saying that any of these printers is at it's peak I think is very premature. Simple printers are like an old fashioned dot matrix printer they are slow as heck and need to do a single row at a time, it took years to develope but now have full color high DPI printers that can handle a page in seconds that photographic quality. Like most other digital products I think that 3d printers will grow exceedingly fast in their capabilities. Right now they are still in their infancy and the technology is going to progress rapidly.

There are medical printers that don't use build tables and mechanical arms, they fire lasers into a light reactive resin and build and object suspended in liquid. It can be a much faster process and is free of support materials. They are also astronomically expensive but very advanced printing technology is available and like every other technology the price will fall. There was a time where even the best of household PCs had less processing power than what our phones are capable of now. Saying we're at a wall that won't progress further is pretty naïve to say the least.

Right now a machine capable of printing good quality miniatures ranges from about $25-$50k, but it's comparable to when Xerox machines first came out, they are currently priced so that they are only really practical for businesses but they will drop in price sharply as more manufacturers get into the market and improvements are made on the resolution and engineering progresses. I think we're about 5 years out from seeing home based machines capable of producing the quality that is presently being used by the higher end commercial machines. I suspect we'll see machines with a similar capacity being sold home use for around $2k-$3k within that time.

It will likely still take time to print out objects but that'll decrease as the machines advance. I doubt it'll be at a point where you can crank out an army in a day but realistically if it takes a week to print a full army is that really a problem?

@paulson games: one point to clarify what I wrote - I haven't meant that 3d printers are at their peak (at least close) when it comes to speed. I meant that current methods used for 3d printing (jet based and SLA) IMO are - and I really hope that more research goes into finding other methods of building 3d objects. I really look forward to seeing progress on this field - the 3d printing scene changes rapidly .

I'm certainly not an expert in the field, I'm just basing my thoughts on how we've seen other computer technologies progress.

I would be curious to see how much of a time difference there is between the solidscape machines and perfactory styled ones.

I also wonder if somebody will figure out a way to design a machine head for the printer which can put down multiple layers in a single pass which would shorten the build times. Or if they can somehow layer the solid parts with one head while doing the fine details with a secondary one allowing them to use greatly differing sized nozzles.

It may be possible that they come up with a completely separate process at some point that makes any of the jet system antiquated. Some of the medical printers have some really amazing technology behind them but when they can go for as much as half a million per machine it'll likely be unavailable for households even with massive price reductions.


(Also love your stuff, I wish I could do organic modeling like that).