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Hi,

Today i have played against Dark Angels with allied IG. My oponent had a 40 guardsman blob with Azrael. Every unit in the blob had a 4+ Inv.
It is virtuallly imposible to get rid of such a unit. It can stay in the open and soak hits for a whole game. Even if i was able to snipe Azrael, he was still able to Look out sir his wounds to other models. Both in shooting and close combat.
I know that some units are harder to kill, but this one is an ultimate tarpit. Any ideas how to kill such a horde?

It's a 4++ save, just pour Boltgun/Lasgun fire etc onto it and they'll drop only slightly slower than with a normal 5+ save. Plus, they're Guardsmen, it's not like they're going to tear you a new hole or anything.

40guardsman with Heavy weapons, and Some IG orders can be a problem. With more than 80shoots per turn, the math is in their favour.

Other than that - it is hard to ignore a 40 units IG bloob as they can take a large part of the battlefield.


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One more thing - it is weird, that Look out sir works in Close Combats.

is he running a melee blob with power axes on sgts and a flamer in each squad, or just using azzy for the fearless + inuv bubble on a shooty blob?

I've played this a few times, it's not unbeatable but its pretty nasty.

Try and tarpit the entire blob with something extremely durable to feeble S3. Then his super blob is useless the entire game.

Mainly though just ignore it and kill all the Manticores and gak he'll undoubtably have hovering around the backfield.

Edit: Lol @ melee blob, never seen that before reckon it'd be hilarious

From what I gather, melee power blobs were pretty common in 5th

I ran Strakon and at least 3 30 man power blobs (1 with al'reham) in 5th edition. It was deadly, a wall of leman russ followed by a hoard of men and an outflanking blob. Al'reham was a lot better in 5th, his "Like the Wind!" order would get me an average 15" charge the turn they came in, in 5th edition.

4++ on 40 guardsmen is unkillable? Clearly you haven't played against 2++ rerollable Chaos Daemons. Volume of fire is your friend.

 Talore wrote:
4++ on 40 guardsmen is unkillable? Clearly you haven't played against 2++ rerollable Chaos Daemons. Volume of fire is your friend.

How do you achieve this? Daemon of Tzeetch lets you reroll 1s and grimoire give +2 to invul, but that only gets you down to a 3++.

Forewarning

 Whereswaldo wrote:
is he running a melee blob with power axes on sgts and a flamer in each squad, or just using azzy for the fearless + inuv bubble on a shooty blob?

He was running a blob with few heavy weapon platforms, every sgt. had a power axe and a meltabomb.



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Plus there was a librarian and a primaris psyker for Divination.


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 Talore wrote:
4++ on 40 guardsmen is unkillable? Clearly you haven't played against 2++ rerollable Chaos Daemons. Volume of fire is your friend.

Ok, how can i achive such volume of fire with Space Wolves. Keeping in mind that the blod also has an outstanding volume of fire.

Even a barebones blob + Azrael is somewhere in the neighborhood of 600points; as soon as you add a primaris, a librarian, and all those weapons, you are looking at 800-1000 points for one unit.

Have you tried just ignoring it?

Basic ten bolters at rapid fire kills ~4.5 Guardsmen. Doesn't sound like much, but that's a tenth of the unit.

Get some Frag Missiles in there with a divination Runepriest or a few solid flamer hits, you've really got something.

Drop pod Wolf Guard with Combi-flamers can do a number on them. Just make sure you've got a normal bolter or the like in the squad to let you allocate the wounds beyond 9"

That unit was used to screen every other unit in the army, protecting every tank from beeig shot by melta. Maybe a Tau gunline can outshoot them, but space wolves drop pod list will loose.

Yes, such a unit could screen tanks from melta. That is why I mentioned combi-flamers, not combi-meltas.

Flamers are good, but they have a limited range. And with a good unit placement the majority of his units can be protected.




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Flamers are good, but they have a limited range. And with a good unit placement the majority of his units can be protected.

I put multiple S5 flamers onto one and it didn't do all that much. Those 4++ are brutally good

gausus wrote:
Today i have played against Dark Angels with allied IG. My oponent had a 40 guardsman blob with Azrael. Every unit in the blob had a 4+ Inv.
It is virtuallly imposible to get rid of such a unit. It can stay in the open and soak hits for a whole game. Even if i was able to snipe Azrael, he was still able to Look out sir his wounds to other models. Both in shooting and close combat.
I know that some units are harder to kill, but this one is an ultimate tarpit. Any ideas how to kill such a horde?

How hard is it to kill two 40 man guard blobs? That Azrael blob is just as hard to kill as two such squads.

In today's meta it should not be that hard to kill 80 GEQ over the course of a game if your using the correct tools. What did you bring in your army?

Vindicators and whirlwinds do a decent number on units like this. Even if you throw deathwind launchers on your droppods it would help quite a bit.

Make him take those saves. Eventually he will fail them.

SW's have some decent hand to hand type things. You could potentially just throw something at them to tie the entire blob up. Seems like Lone Wolves would be almost perfect for that type of role. Just slowly kill through the unit, one character at a time. Meanwhile 1450 of your 1500 point army is killing the rest of his (roughly 500 points).

Can I just ask, when you refer to ++ for a save so a 4++ save. What does that mean?

4++ means an invulnerable save. Its internet annotation.

So you will see terminators often described as a 2+/5++ save.

You can always counter with your own tar pit. Throw a squad of TH/SS terminators at it and just let them wade through the bodies for a few turns, after all they are only guardsmen.

Thanks

Well a 4++ save for a blon squad would be very handy. Especially as most enemy weaponry seems to have an AP5 these days

Imperial Deceit wrote:
You can always counter with your own tar pit. Throw a squad of TH/SS terminators at it and just let them wade through the bodies for a few turns, after all they are only guardsmen.

^^ this and out an independent character in there and issue challenges then just beat azreal out of there lol

Or failing that use the big guns I.e vindicators, thunderfire or dev squads in a rhino 4 flamers and boom there will be alot of wounds on those weakling guardsmen

Imperial Deceit wrote:
You can always counter with your own tar pit. Throw a squad of TH/SS terminators at it and just let them wade through the bodies for a few turns, after all they are only guardsmen.

Gads, why would you use them to kill guard.

2 attacks per model means you will be splatting 5 point guard all game.

Exactly, you will slaughter guardsmen left and right, and while having your 225 points of termies tied up is an unfortunate thing, its much better then the 400+ points they have tied up in that squad.

A power blob with 4++ and axes will destroy terminators.

You want to force the most amount of saves for the least amount of points. Thunderfire cannons are a good start. Force a blob to spread out and you dilute their effectiveness by reducing the number of models that can rapid fire or get into striking range.

Well, here's the problem. The lack of attacks means they won't be killing guard left and right. Let me show you.

(2/3 to hit) * (5/6 to wound) * (1/2 failed Azrael save) * 2 (number of attacks) = 5/9 wounds per marine per round.
So 5 TH/SS termies will be killing 2.78 guard per assault phase.
So in 7.2 full game turns they will kill the blob, assuming that no termies are killed.

However, your guard will be striking back.
(1/2 to hit) * (1/3 to wound) * (1/6 failed save) * 50 attacks = 50/36 wounds, or 1.38 marines per turn.
That is not even including the sergeants with power axes, or Azrael hitting.

So whats going to happen is the terminators is they get ground away killing guard.
This is because terminators are the wrong tools to be using against guard blobs. TH/SS terminators are great at killing MEQ or hard targets like riptides.
Seekers of slaanesh, Khorne hounds, Assault marines, Honor guard, etc are how you kill guard blobs. You want to use lots of low strength attack to kill guard.

Imperial Deceit wrote:
Exactly, you will slaughter guardsmen left and right, and while having your 225 points of termies tied up is an unfortunate thing, its much better then the 400+ points they have tied up in that squad.

The thing is, while that is a fair trade-off, there are even more effective ways of doing it. For a start, The OP is using Space Wolves, whose TH/SS Termie squads come in at around 60ppm. It's far from efficient with vanilla TH/SS, SW would find this even more of a problem.

It also comes down to using the right tool for the job. Thanks to the 4++, AP is not relevant so why waste your vehicle-busting TH on squishing guardsmen when a VV squad (or in your case Wolf Guard) will kill far more (only difference being they wound on 3+, offset by greater number of attacks) and may even be able to do something else that game. The Termies will just swat infantrymen but ultimately get nowhere. Tarpitting is good, wiping them out is better. I can even see Blood Claws being useful here with the high volume of attacks. Even GH could do better than equal points of termies.

Even better, shooting them is still pretty easy, T3 with a 4+ is basically Fire Warrior stats, and no one complains about them being overly durable. While the Az blob is nasty, it is by no means unkillable. Massed GH shooting, assaults and drop pod flamer squads should take it down or at least reduce it to the point where it is mostly useless.