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Does the priest test on his own leadership of 7 or on the unit's?

Rules text is:
War Hymns: A model with this special rule can take a Leadership test at the beginning
of each Fight sub-phase in which he is locked in combat. If the test is successful, choose
one of the following war hymns to immediately take effect.

Page 7 of the rulebook says you always test on the highest leadership. Does the War Hymn contradict this or not?

Mutter wrote:
Does the priest test on his own leadership of 7 or on the unit's?

Rules text is:
War Hymns: A model with this special rule can take a Leadership test at the beginning
of each Fight sub-phase in which he is locked in combat. If the test is successful, choose
one of the following war hymns to immediately take effect.

Page 7 of the rulebook says you always test on the highest leadership. Does the War Hymn contradict this or not?

Its talking about model with the special rule ... not unit. So its his leadership.

You are not by chance the same user that registered in our clubs forum yesterday are you?

I know - but on page 7, it specifically talks about a 'model's leadership' test more than once.
And THEN goes on to say that whenever you have more than one value, you use the highest.

It doesn't differentiate between model's and unit's test there.

Not saying that it's conclusive (that's why I posted it), but I don't think it's enough to just claim it's a 'model's' test.

 Mywik wrote:

You are not by chance the same user that registered in our clubs forum yesterday are you?

Quite possibly.
Snakeeyes?

Mutter wrote:
I know - but on page 7, it specifically talks about a 'model's leadership' test more than once.
And THEN goes on to say that whenever you have more than one value, you use the highest.

It doesn't differentiate between model's and unit's test there.

Not saying that it's conclusive (that's why I posted it), but I don't think it's enough to just claim it's a 'model's' test.

The model doesnt have more than 1 leadership value. The unit has. The rules on page 7 do differentiate between models and units leadership tests in the first sentence. It later tells you to compare the result to the models leadership and than it says:

"If a unit includes models with different Leadership values,"

 Mywik wrote:

You are not by chance the same user that registered in our clubs forum yesterday are you? [

Quite possibly.
Snakeeyes?

Jep

Do you have the English or the German version of the rulebook?

Because there is a heavy translation error in that section.

German:
"Wird ein einziger Test für die gesamte Einheit verlangt, so
benutzt du immer den höchsten in der Einheit vertretenen
Wert des verlangten Profilwerts."

English:
"To take a Leadership test, use the following procedure:
- Roll 2D6 and compare the result to the MODEL's Leadership.
...
- If a unit includes MODELS with different Leadership values, always use the highest Leadership among them."

That's the case here, no?

*edited once for stupidity and twice for clarity.

Mutter wrote:
Do you have the English or the German version of the rulebook?

Because there is a heavy translation error in that section.

German:
"Wird ein einziger Test für die gesamte Einheit verlangt, so
benutzt du immer den höchsten in der Einheit vertretenen
Wert des verlangten Profilwerts."

English:
"To take a Leadership test, use the following procedure:
- Roll 2D6 and compare the result to the MODEL's Leadership.
...
- If a unit includes MODELS with different Leadership values, always use the highest Leadership among them."

That's the case here, no?

*edited once for stupidity and twice for clarity.

I have both versions but normally go for the english version.

You'd be right if the leadership was required to be taken for the unit. Its required to be taken for the model though per the rule you quoted in the initial post.

The rules on page 7 tell us that there are two kinds of leadership tests. Those for models and those for units.
The unit that the model is part of may contain models with a different leadership but the test has to be taken by the model ... not the unit. Therefor you use the models leadership.

Mutter, if I have a warlock with ld8 doing a pyshic test, which is a leadership test, would it be on ld10 from the attached Farseer in the unit or ld 8?. Its on a model by model basis, not unit for rules like this.

Psychic tests are explicitely exempt for the rules of using someone else's leadership.

Pysker tests may be specifically exempt, but that doesn't mean that other leadership tests can't also work the same way.

Of course, the specific exemption is helpful when determining what leadership score to use when looking at a squad of horrors (brotherhood of sorcerers Ld7) joined by a herald (Ld8 psyker).

If a unit includes models with different Leadership values, always use the highest Leadership from among them.


Doesn't that mean you use the highest Ld in the Priest's unit?

Polecat wrote:
If a unit includes models with different Leadership values, always use the highest Leadership from among them.


Doesn't that mean you use the highest Ld in the Priest's unit?

No since its not the unit that takes the test but the model with the special rule.

 Mywik wrote:

Polecat wrote:
If a unit includes models with different Leadership values, always use the highest Leadership from among them.


Doesn't that mean you use the highest Ld in the Priest's unit?

No since its not the unit that takes the test but the model with the special rule.

It doesn't specify that it only applies to Ld test taken by a unit. It just tells you to use highest Ld in a unit when taking Ld tests.

 Mywik wrote:

Polecat wrote:
If a unit includes models with different Leadership values, always use the highest Leadership from among them.


Doesn't that mean you use the highest Ld in the Priest's unit?

No since its not the unit that takes the test but the model with the special rule.

Where exactly have you seen this rule? does not seem to fit anything I know.

And would make it extremely silly that psyker powers SPECIFY that they use the model's own, and not the unit-what leads to believe non-psyker powers do use the unit's.

 BoomWolf wrote:

 Mywik wrote:

Polecat wrote:
If a unit includes models with different Leadership values, always use the highest Leadership from among them.


Doesn't that mean you use the highest Ld in the Priest's unit?

No since its not the unit that takes the test but the model with the special rule.

Where exactly have you seen this rule? does not seem to fit anything I know.

And would make it extremely silly that psyker powers SPECIFY that they use the model's own, and not the unit-what leads to believe non-psyker powers do use the unit's.

Page 7 says:

At certain times, a model or unit might be called upon to take a Leadership test.

This tells us that there are two kinds of leadership tests. Those for models and those for units.
The rule quoted by the op tells us that the leadership test is taken for the model in this case.

The fact that psychers specifly that the model uses its own leadership for tests doesnt have any bearing on this case.

The rule quoted in the op (i dont have the codex so have to go with that quote) specifies that the model with the special rule takes the test. Not the unit that contains a model with the special rule.

The last bullet for the leadership tests on page seven says that if there are models in the unit that have different leaderships, then use the highest.

Psychic tests are the only exception.

 Mywik wrote:

 BoomWolf wrote:

 Mywik wrote:

Polecat wrote:
If a unit includes models with different Leadership values, always use the highest Leadership from among them.


Doesn't that mean you use the highest Ld in the Priest's unit?

No since its not the unit that takes the test but the model with the special rule.

Where exactly have you seen this rule? does not seem to fit anything I know.

And would make it extremely silly that psyker powers SPECIFY that they use the model's own, and not the unit-what leads to believe non-psyker powers do use the unit's.

Page 7 says:

At certain times, a model or unit might be called upon to take a Leadership test.

This tells us that there are two kinds of leadership tests. Those for models and those for units.
The rule quoted by the op tells us that the leadership test is taken for the model in this case.

The fact that psychers specifly that the model uses its own leadership for tests doesnt have any bearing on this case.

The rule quoted in the op (i dont have the codex so have to go with that quote) specifies that the model with the special rule takes the test. Not the unit that contains a model with the special rule.

Yes, the model takes the Ld test. But if the model is part of a unit, you use the highest Ld in the unit, as page 7 tells you to.

Otherwise you are ignoring the part of the rule that says "If a unit includes models with different Leadership values, always use the highest Leadership from among them. "

Well, I was sad because of the Priest's Ld7...now I might not need to take two in a unit, since at Ld10 the Hymn will definitely go off!

Telling fact is that the first few bullet points on page 7 specifically only speak of 'the model', yet the first sentence of that paragraph talks about 'at certain times, a model or a unit..'. It's only the last bullet point that talks about units.

So models always take a Leadership test (even if a unit is called upon to make one), but if the unit contains more than one Ld value they always use the highest amongst them.

Models with more than Ld characteristic are specifically mentioned in the next paragraph so the sentence about units vs models can't be about that situation.

 Mywik wrote:

Page 7 says:

At certain times, a model or unit might be called upon to take a Leadership test.

This tells us that there are two kinds of leadership tests. Those for models and those for units.

This is not true. This tells us that more then one thing may be required to take the same kind of test. For example "At certain times, Dave or Brian might eat Amy's food." Amy's food will not change just because Dave is eating it instead of Brian, this statement only tells us that two different people might eat that food.

The last bullet point would need to read something like "If a unit that includes models with different Leadership values is called upon to take a Leadership Test, always use the highest Leadership from among them. " for it to mean what you think it means.

Page 67:

"A Psychic test is a Leadership test, however, where Leadership tests could be taken on the value of another model, a Psychic test is always taken on the Psyker's own Leadership."


So the rulebook literally tells us that Ld tests are normally taken as highest of the unit.

I stand corrected. In this case i concede my point and undust my Henchmen ;O

PG seven is talking about using the highest LD for MORALE tests,

not every single ld test,

so you use the preists LD

 easysauce wrote:
PG seven is talking about using the highest LD for MORALE tests,

not every single ld test,

so you use the preists LD

Oh man, how silly of us! Of course it is! Oh wait, that's not even close to true. Find where on page 7 the word MORALE is used. The ONLY situation where the leadership of the actual model is used is psychic tests. Other than that, you use the highest Ld in the unit.

Polecat wrote:
Page 67:

"A Psychic test is a Leadership test, however, where Leadership tests could be taken on the value of another model, a Psychic test is always taken on the Psyker's own Leadership."

It says "Could be taken." Which in this case it can't be because the special rule clearly indicates that the character model with the special rule takes the test, then the effects are applied to the unit.

Also Celestine's Warlord trait.

Beacon of Faith: All friendly models that are within 12" of the Warlord use the Warlord’s Leadership value when taking Act of Faith or War Hymns Leadership tests, unless their own is higher.

Why would they put this rule in if any priest could simply take the highest value LD for his test in all cases?

RAW = Priest has special rule, priest makes test at Ld7.

Also since when are special rules modified by the rules in the core rulebook rather than the other way around? That's why they're called special rules.

dadakkaest wrote:

Polecat wrote:
Page 67:

"A Psychic test is a Leadership test, however, where Leadership tests could be taken on the value of another model, a Psychic test is always taken on the Psyker's own Leadership."

It says "Could be taken." Which in this case it can't be because the special rule clearly indicates that the character model with the special rule takes the test, then the effects are applied to the unit.

Also Celestine's Warlord trait.

Beacon of Faith: All friendly models that are within 12" of the Warlord use the Warlord’s Leadership value when taking Act of Faith or War Hymns Leadership tests, unless their own is higher.

Why would they put this rule in if any priest could simply take the highest value LD for his test in all cases?

RAW = Priest has special rule, priest makes test at Ld7.

Also since when are special rules modified by the rules in the core rulebook rather than the other way around? That's why they're called special rules.

As I said in the SOB tactics thread, it doesn't matter what Celestine modifies. Her rule is called Beacon of Faith and modifies two things that are faith-based. It's less powerful than a simple Ld10 bubble but still a good ability.

And again, just because the priest is the one taking the test doesn't mean he gets to nullify the rules on page seven.

It doesn't matter what page seven says about morale tests, because War Hymns is a special rule and not a morale test.

dadakkaest wrote:
It doesn't matter what page seven says about morale tests, because War Hymns is a special rule.

A special rule that doesn't say anything about only using the models leadership even if there's a model with a higher Ld in the unit. Nothing about War Hymns voids that.

dadakkaest wrote:

Polecat wrote:
Page 67:

"A Psychic test is a Leadership test, however, where Leadership tests could be taken on the value of another model, a Psychic test is always taken on the Psyker's own Leadership."

It says "Could be taken." Which in this case it can't be because the special rule clearly indicates that the character model with the special rule takes the test, then the effects are applied to the unit.

Also Celestine's Warlord trait.

Beacon of Faith: All friendly models that are within 12" of the Warlord use the Warlord’s Leadership value when taking Act of Faith or War Hymns Leadership tests, unless their own is higher.

Why would they put this rule in if any priest could simply take the highest value LD for his test in all cases?

RAW = Priest has special rule, priest makes test at Ld7.

Also since when are special rules modified by the rules in the core rulebook rather than the other way around? That's why they're called special rules.

I don't see how that is relevant. The warlord trait allows friendly models to use a different unit's LD, it dose not state that they test their LD like a psychic test.

Unless we can find a rule that states how they should use their LD, they will use the BRB's definition.

There's only way to take a Leadership test in the rulebook, the one on page 7.

According to that models take leadership tests, and the last bullet point tells us that if that model is in a unit with mixed Leadership values, it can use the highest.

Possibly they should have split the rules into a section for individual models and another for units, but they didn't..

Polecat wrote:
Page 67:

"A Psychic test is a Leadership test, however, where Leadership tests could be taken on the value of another model, a Psychic test is always taken on the Psyker's own Leadership."


So the rulebook literally tells us that Ld tests are normally taken as highest of the unit.

I think that's referring to special rules like the Commissar's, where he grants his leadership to those in a 12" bubble around him. It's not specific to the case of another model in the same unit with higher leadership.