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Meh, for all the complaining about Sedition Wars honestly they were good figs with a few minor exceptions like the River and the Cylon chick. I really like the production on the standard models actually. So for me it's not a big risk.

I think a mountain was made out of a mole hill in regards to quality on the SW KS. I think it was more people not expecting to work in the medium provided. And honestly complaining about the quality on them when we paid $1 each is a little silly.

Granted some of the limited's deserve critique. But that isn't what's being sold here. Stock models are and not one offs so I'm way less worried about it, even based on Sedition Wars. But to each their own. Still not sure if i'm putting any more than my $300 in but I might. Depends on if I'm going all in for everything or just going to flushout 2-3 factions.

The pledge manager is now live (you should have an email about it)

The Ancient King which was free for pledges over $200 only shows up AFTER you've finalised and locked you pledge (paying any extra by paypal),

unlike the Iron Eyes mini & rulebook which show up when you're picking your items (so don't worry that you're missing it)

There are NEW terms and conditions..... It looks like CMON is fed with complaints about delays, materials, lack of communication, the phase of the moon etc

"We are informing you that the products are in design and as presented are not 100% final and that shipping times are an estimate only, and may ship earlier or later. By clicking the "Checkout with PayPal" button below you agree that the final products may differ significantly in name, appearance, composition, color or other material manner, and that the shipping dates may be earlier or later than the provided estimates, and that you also agree that you will not seek a refund or compensation due to these changes. If you do not agree, do not click "Checkout with PayPal" and instead write kickstarter@coolminiornot.com immediately to cancel your pledge for a refund."

NOT a fan of those new T&Cs.

Not a fan AT ALL.

I was going to say that having the end date for the survey at 12/31/13 was a good thing - it would let us take a look at production Relic Knights models and decide from there.

Now... who knows?

I think it's probably a response to the increasing number of KS backers who seem to think it's OK to demand a refund over a wide variety of things they should have thought harder about before they backed

(often because they think a new KS is cooler and want to move their money to that)

I suspect they'd still honour 'reasonable' refund requests even where their T&C say they don't have to (as many other companies do)

but those who backed Relic Knights and demanded a refund to back Rivet Wars and then decided Wrath of Kings or Zombicide 2 looked cooler,,,,, they'll be out of luck

(as I suspect those who are behave like jerks about it too)

EDIT: of course it does mean they could deliver a game with minis made of cheese 5 years after the KS estimated shipment date too )

I think CMON is looking for a little too much in those T&Cs.

If they fail to meet realistic expectations, then they should offer refunds.

I suppose this just lets them say 'Stuff it" if they like, but that won't help future campaigns...

Yeah, with terms like that I'd happily take them up on the offer at the end of it to refund the pledge, rather than accept such ridiculousness.

"We want these hundreds of thousands of dollars with no strings attached"

Good luck continuing to get people to pledge based on art with a year or so's lead time with an attitude like that...

Seriously RiTides and Alph?

It's unreasonable to hold people to their agreement? Remember that every refund costs them additional 10% because that goes to Amazon/Kickstarter. The only time I'd honestly say your entitled to a refund on KS is when the product itself isn't delivered period.

Do you buy a video game based on artwork and reading the back of it at BestBuy or GamesStop, take it home, open it up, play it, realize it isn't what you wanted or you don't like it and return it for a cash refund?

Seriously?

Yes, seriously.

You must be seeing something I'm not, or you're WAY more optimistic even after what we've seen ALREADY from Mantic (Sedition Wars) and Mantic (KoW), etc. in terms of reality varying greatly from what was 'promised'.

Those T&Cs come across as pretty snide, insulting and petty.

So yeah, I'm serious - if they fail to deliver based on the expectations set forth in their campaign, they should offer refunds.

No one is suggesting or advocating anything like the ridiculous 'examples' you laid out.

Sorry Alph but the new ToS spells out, for stupid people (and yes, I mean that) the actual ToS from Kickstarter. No one kickstarting is entitled to a refund.

It's not optimism on my part. It's understanding that I'm backing something based on the information provided. But you're saying your entitled to a refund if you don't like the final product or the time it takes to arrive? CMoN is not in charge of your personal expectations since they'll vary from person to person.

I'll go back to my example and phrase it based on expectations. The box sells you the "newest, greatest thing in FPS". If you don't feel that but you expected that are you entitled to a refund? Marketing is Marketing. If your not comfortable on the gamble then don't take it. Don't buy it until it's been reviewed. Don't pre-order and pick up day of. It's not rocket science but expecting a company to provide refunds based on expectations when they do deliver the product is ridiculous.

And say what you will, Mantic and CMoN (Sedition Wars) have delivered the product. It might not have been what people expected or up to everyones standards but it was what was presented. At least I wasn't missing anything I ordered for Sedition Wars. Did they actually fail to deliver any product on that one?

Best way for CMON to tackle this, is to stop with their seasonal Kickstarter preorder program.

don't have to worry about backers trying to pledge hop from one project to the next. Don't have to worry about any legitimate criticisms or BS, opening pledges, closing pledges, dead lines.

And fans can see products the old fashion way to inspect quality before you buy.

Don't have a problem with a small company doing a kickstarter, but being partnered with CMON is just a turn off for me now.

you may get a bucket full of minis with each kickstarter, but I must ask if people intend or actually get around to painting them?

I personally think it is best for smaller companies to avoid CMON, and play small ball to focus on higher quality minis. Something McVey should have done.

 Hulksmash wrote:
It might not have been what people expected or up to everyones standards...

You're certainly right there!

 Hulksmash wrote:
...but it was what was presented.

...not so sure about there though!

So...less accountability built in up front?

I'm not a huge fan of signing up for that.

Not to be overly analytical, but there would seem to me at first glance to be some non-trivial problems with attempting to modify the terms of a pre-existing agreement in this manner. Seriously now, "payment" has been rendered (for some time now), and the party that has yet to fulfill is imposing additional terms on the party that has completely performed? Hmmm... problematic.

Unless, of course, one is to assume the terms are simply a restatement of the existing terms. In which case they are meaningless.

To be honest, this seems to be actually better for the consumer; it pretty well establishes that if you want to back out now how to get a refund.

Yikes, glad I didn't back Wrath of Kings with that notice. I think all of the pretending about Kickstarter being something other than a pre-order system is kind of funny.

@Alph

You do realize there wasn't any accountability anyway based on the ToS from Kickstarter itself right?

@Gallahad

It is more than a pre-order system for quite a bit. There are companies that wouldn't be able to get started or expand production without it. Getting something when it's completed isn't always a pre-order. An excellent example would be Dreamforge. Those plastic leviathans wouldn't have come about for years (if ever) without kickstarter, let alone all of the other items he's being able to produce.

@Buzzsaw

Agreed. I think it's a restatement of the risks of kickstarting (i.e. that you aren't entitled to a refund) but also forces people to make the decision now. Instead of during production when people get antsy and see getting a refund as a way to pay for the newest shiny project.

I am not terribly worried about the whole 'Seriously, you can't get your money back' stuff. I always look at KS as a gamble, and so I am only ever willing to back things that are priced at a significant discount to what I would be willing to pay for them, based on how likely I expect it to work out. I think a lot of folks don't do that, treating it either as a pre-order system or something similar, or at least underestimating the risk. I think these sorts of changes are going to push some people away from using KS as much, but that is probably good.

What we are seeing is people starting to properly price the service that is actually being presented. People paying 10% off retail for future models probably is going to go away unless it is from a very reliable company. On the supplier side, I think companies are going to stop using KS as super cheap financing for some lines, and move towards treating it as acceptably expensive financing.

That's my guess, anyway. I am very interested to see how it works out.

I always view Kickstarter as a gamble, and for the record I have bought out two large pledges from backers who were involved in 2 separate campaigns that I was that were unhappy, to give them an out and yet allow the creator to continue to work on their product. I have also contributed extra to another project to enable to the creator to be able to ship. In other words... I am understanding.

But, I consider myself a backer, and "Terms of Service" like that are just not what I consider Kickstarter to be about. I have every expectation of being able to give feedback on a process, express if I am unhappy with the direction of something, and in the campaigns I have been a part of, the creator listens.

To have them say "We've got your money, if you don't like what we're doing, tough- we don't want to hear it" makes me say "Well, I'll order your product when it's available, but I'm not going to Kickstart it".

I have NEVER asked for a refund on a campaign. But, I take the role of "backer" seriously. This is not just a preorder. If they want to treat it as a preorder, that's fine- but that means I won't be giving them my money with terms like that.

Basically, it's a mutual respect thing. I back your project based on your ideas/hopes/dreams (and hopefully a bit of art/sculpts/etc ) and you in turn keep me updated on your progress in fulfillment. If the end product has to differ for whtaever reason, that's fine. I'm about to receive my second pledge that has models in a different material than promised. Several others I'm in are many months overdue. It's the nature of the beast.

But I'm not signing a dotted line like that saying that you have no accountability to me whatsoever. There's give and take here, creators and backers working together to have something made that could not have been made any other way. Terms like that aren't what I think Kickstarter is about, and is why I would never sign something like that and intsead gladly take the refund they offer.

/Kickstarter hipster rant

Note: Also guys, I know this isn't everyone's view on Kickstarter, and that's totally fine. But it's mine, and I think I'm entitled to it just as much as CMON is entitled to say "STFU and take whatever we give you, we've got your money now!1!" which is basically what those terms amount to. If that's a company's attitude, why in the world would I pay upfront rather than wait to see what they will deliver? Every person/company I've kickstarted has viewed themselves as much more accountable to their backers than that, and has worked with them if something didn't meet expectations to try to make it right.

Note2: I also think this campaign will be fine, but it's the attitude that really bothers me about those terms- particularly when they're added AFTER the money has already been taken! Put them front and center on your Kickstarter page, and see what the affect is...

I think you are totally right, RiTides. I think we will see two sorts of KS emerge, at least for minis:

1: The bigger gamble ones that say "Look, give us your cash, then shut up. You either trust us or you don't." They probably won't make much cash due to discounting the product unless they have a really good reputation. Reaper's Bones projects could probably pull this off, but some minor CMON affiliated producer probably can't. These are the guys who might actually make use of those terms and conditions.

2: The smaller gamble products that are either really simple (like clever little jars for bits) or from fairly established smaller companies that have excellent customer relations. Kingdom Death probably exemplifies this type, as Poots had a thing going for a while beforehand and had a good reputation for hard work and good customer service etc. He puts out a KS, gives lots of updates and listens to feedback, and people pile in despite the rather high prices. He announces a delay, and people are almost happy about it. Guys like that can run Kick Starters all day and people will be thrilled. I doubt Poots will ever have occasion to invoke the T&C.

Basically it comes down to a problem of incomplete contracts. How much communication is enough? How close to the concept art do models need to be? How much of a delay is ok? What happens if you spend the money and the thing explodes? It is probably impossible to really work that out and put it in writing, but since you need some sort of decent contract you have to fall back on the seemingly draconian T&C, and hope the creators you are backing see that as a nuclear option which will ruin all their future endeavours.

It does make me a little leery that they reposted the T&C after they took my money, but really I was assuming that was the deal in the first place. When Kick Starter said there was no recourse they would deal with if things went south, I was assuming I was never going to see that cash again. I think that the success of most Kickstarter projects has made people forget that you are making a fairly risky investment.

Agreed Wehrkind, and Hulksmash and I had a nice discussion of this over PM regarding the various types of Kickstarters. As he laid them out:

1. Sales (Like CMoN)
2. Developmental (Dreamforge)
3. Expansion (Mantic)

I almost exclusively back campaigns falling into the second category. This is where you'll see a LOT of interaction between creators and backers. I think even Kingdom Death, despite it's size, may fall into this category (although it's on the line... I nearly backed it, but had put so much into KS at that point that the uncertainty about material made me drop out. Really glad he is going with hard plastic, it will be worth the delay to meet his high standards!).

I think the problem is when people back a "sales" type Kickstarter, thinking there will be updates and accountability to backers. I think the poster child for this blowing up is Sedition Wars. Now, however, people should have the right expectations on the various types of Kickstarters- I didn't go in on WoK because I tend to want to support Developmental ones. But if I did, I'd be pretty sure that my feedback would not have an effect! So, folks thinking they'll get frequent progress updates and creators listening to backer feedback and making adjustments in a campaign such as this, probably need to readjust their expectations for a "sales" type Kickstarter.

If they don't like that, they can come wave their hipster flags with me and stick to more "developmental" ones

It's been really interesting seeing these things develop, and seeing a lot of ideas get funding very quickly in a short span of time! I think now people are getting a better idea of the different types of campaigns, but breaking things down into categories like Hulk had mentioned is helpful to me in thinking about it. It'd be great if Kickstarter would actually do this, but we all know the likelihood of that

(I think for a lot of even earlier Kickstarter supporters, even projects I consider "developmental" and well worth supporting are too corporate for them- my sister, for example, had only backed art / mural / etc projects on there)

It's a great platform but it's helpful to think about the kind of campaigns you want to be a part of, and what you can/should expect from them, before your cash goes out the digital window

I rather like Hulk's breakdown there, though I see Expansion as a subset of Developmental. I think a lot of companies are like Soda Pop where they have a line that makes some cash, but want to expand the line much more quickly than their current cash flow allows. The resulting project falls into the category of "stuff we were going to do anyway" but also into "things we don't mind tweaking from customer feedback, and might still explode."

I think if KickStarters were smart, they would describe themselves as one of those categories and not wait for KS themselves to do it. Basically set the expectations right at the beginning. Particularly if you have things 80% done already, show what you have, say what you can tweak, and go from there.

The real problem will come when those running the KS mistake which category they are in. If you claim to be developmental and totally willing to listen to backers, and then disappear for a few months and get cranky with commenters, everyone is pissed.

 Hulksmash wrote:
@Alph

You do realize there wasn't any accountability anyway based on the ToS from Kickstarter itself right?

@Gallahad

It is more than a pre-order system for quite a bit. There are companies that wouldn't be able to get started or expand production without it. Getting something when it's completed isn't always a pre-order. An excellent example would be Dreamforge. Those plastic leviathans wouldn't have come about for years (if ever) without kickstarter, let alone all of the other items he's being able to produce.

@Buzzsaw

Agreed. I think it's a restatement of the risks of kickstarting (i.e. that you aren't entitled to a refund) but also forces people to make the decision now. Instead of during production when people get antsy and see getting a refund as a way to pay for the newest shiny project.

Yes, I do realize that.

Did you know that there have been a few successful lawsuits against KS and Campaigns that failed to deliver as expected and those very same "ToS" did not protect them?

All I'm saying is that this seems to be a somewhat clear indication that some people will use KS to generate lots of pledges and may or may not live up to expectations in the end.

Yes, they apparently can do this and have a clear conscience, at least by the KS "ToS" or their own T&Cs - I'm just saying that I'm not so sure we should be overjoyed with it, or continue to feel comfortable backing their projects.

We'll see how CMON performs moving forward, but right now, they've got some hits and some misses, and that updated statement isn't inspiring me to continue giving them my money.

So I suppose in that case, they get what they were after?

I only have issue with a single word they put in that disclaimer and that's "significantly" the rest is fine with me I understand the risks involved in backing kickstarters I know kickstarters own terms and conditions state that backers are not entitled to refunds unless the creator can't fulfill the project and even then you may get nothing if there's nothing left. There's just something that doesn't sit right with saying things could be significantly different in the final product when they've already shown production models and built a KS on the understanding they would be made of a certain type of mixed plastics.

I've filled in the pledge manager I wanted to add another $80 of stuff but there's a nagging voice that keeps saying CMoN = not a penny more - I think this will sit for a few weeks until I've received Rivet Wars and Relic Knights then I'll decide and if I still don't have both of them by December 31st then it really is not a penny more.

Good point DaveC. When is Relic Knights supposed to get anywhere? I haven't gotten any shipping info as far as I know.

You have to have your shipping address locked in by the 10th (this Sunday) they should be packing shortly after then sending them to the distribution centres (by air freight) to be posted on to backers. They have about 7 weeks (I didn't count 1 week for Christmas) to do that and make the 31st of December deadline for the WoK pledge manager that's more than doable but their recent track record suggests it may not go to that plan.

DaveC is the voice of reason and calm, again!

And that is a very good point - Relic Knights models will be out in the wild before Dec. 31st.

I'll make my decision on whether or not to add to my Wrath of Kings pledge once I've seen RH stuff.

This is a potential turning point for CMON - IF the material is good and the RH minis are good, then WoK gets a boost and future projects from CMON can say "just like the RH and WoK stuff" and we'll all be OK with that.

I was all set to add a heap of stuff but after reading that I think I've changed my mind.
After the woeful job they've done on Zombicide it's almost as if they are trying to blame the customer.

DaveC: Ahh great, thanks! I confirmed my address so long ago I completely forgot!

I agree Alph, I think it RK and WoK work out nicely, I would be down for more of these style projects. Especially if I manage to sell off the two spare starter sets from WoK and come out a little ahead of the 100$ pledge


What went so badly with Zombicide? We got our Season 2 stuff without any problems, but I wasn't in the Season 1 kickstarter.

It's the whole sold at Gencon thing while some backers had to wait another 2 months - announcing early shipping then not meeting it, now the game is on sale retail and some backers still don't have it yet. Spilt shipping when they discovered they didn't have some of the product they said they had so some people only have part of wave 1. Generally poor communication and having to drag information out of them. I know that they have had updates to post and just sat on them for days to weeks.

I got my Zombicide stuff it's a month after estimate that doesn't bother me I got the full set and CMoN have fulfilled so far. Others are very upset about it you will get all points of view.

I've been following the AvP thread and the Facebook page and even the mere mention of CMoN is enough to make a lot of people say they won't back it. People are good at talking the talk but when it comes down to it and there's a good enough deal there they'll still quietly back a CMoN project - $700k+ on WoK shows that and Zombicide Season 3 will back that up.

Ahhh I see. My wife actually went in for the Zombicide S2 instead of me, so I didn't see any updates past "Ok, I pledged" and "Holy crap, there's a big box on my door." Really, it was fairly pleasant.

To quote my dad "The best thing about having a bad memory is every mail day can be Christmas."

Nothing went "wrong" with Zombicide, and it's barely late.

People just like to complain about things being shipped.

 OrlandotheTechnicoloured wrote:
final products may differ significantly in name, appearance, composition, color or other material manner

I've been on the fence with previous CMoN projects, but this was the last straw.

I'm thoroughly done with CMoN Kickstarters, and probably anything else I can get elsewhere (read: just about everything?). Making your terms of service "we have no accountability, shut up" is way too far. As RiTides stated, everyone else says "we'll try our best to deliver."