Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

So, the new Knights Codex seems to have somewhat missed the boat by only including two unit options. To redress that somewhat, here's a quick and dirty amendment that adds the other Knight types back in (with the exception of the Warden, who didn't make it into Titan Legions, and isn't really a part of a normal Knight group anyway).

This amendment adds a normal FOC organisation to the Knight list, with the Paladin and the Errant filling Troop slots. The Baron slots in as HQ, and the Castellan and Crusader as HS. Points costs are rough at this point - I took the Paladin and Errant costs, and tried to make the new variants fit into a similar sort of bracket effectiveness-wise, while representing their original kit outs. The Baron may change a little depending on the Warlord boost available in the codex, once we have more details on just what that is.

I also have some ideas for adding wargear options (including the Shock Lance that the original Knights had as standard) ... to follow later.

Looks pretty reasonable to me. I'm not well versed enough in the original fluff or epic stats, but I'm assuming this is pretty accurate. I do like the lack of S: D weaponry though, definitely some sensible stat lines for the cost.

If you didn't have the base Knight rules to go off of, would you have kept the Knights as Super heavy walkers, or taken them in a different direction?

I think everything looks nice except for the power lance that seems somewhat over the top. Ignoring armour and cover saves, hitting automatically, wounding most stuff on a 2+ with re-roll, penetrating tanks on a 3+ and all this on a tough platform that moves 12" and has torrent. My personal opinion at least is that this weapon is in a wholly different league to the other knight weapons and should probably be toned down.

Blacksails wrote:. I do like the lack of S: D weaponry though, ...

That might not last... Turns out the quake canon was previously covered on the Warlord titan.... So I need to dig out my original Apocalypse book and check it out.

If you didn't have the base Knight rules to go off of, would you have kept the Knights as Super heavy walkers, or taken them in a different direction?

Given their size compared to a land raider, no, I don't think they really need to be super heavies. I would have just made them regular Walkers.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Dantioch wrote:
I think everything looks nice except for the power lance that seems somewhat over the top. Ignoring armour and cover saves, hitting automatically, wounding most stuff on a 2+ with re-roll, penetrating tanks on a 3+ and all this on a tough platform that moves 12" and has torrent. My personal opinion at least is that this weapon is in a wholly different league to the other knight weapons and should probably be toned down.

Keep in mind that it is short range compared to the other weapons, and the lancer doesn't have the D-weapon chainsword, and is only armour 12 with one less HP than the other classes.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Slightly edited the weapons chart - replaced the Quake cannon entry with something more akin to the Warlord version from V1 Apocalypse. I toned it down a littler - only 1 shot, and Large Blast instead of 10" to avoid people having to go out and find templates that are no longer available...

Need a new name for the Power Lance as well, to remove confusion with the rulebook power weapon. The obvious 'Knight Lance' or 'Knight Power Lance' both sound silly. 'Harvester Power Lance' is a possibility, keeping the theme with the 'reaper' chainsword on the Errant and Paladin... Other suggestions would be welcome.

To the OP, they didn't miss the boat. Those are going to come as dataslates at $14.99 a piece.

GW seems to be milking the knights for as much cash as they can extract from the grubby little gamers pockets.

 Wayshuba wrote:
To the OP, they didn't miss the boat. Those are going to come as dataslates at $14.99 a piece.

They won't come as dataslates without models.

Looks good so far, but I feel you should have some way to customise the Baron (since according to the fluff, every Baron was personalised, even though most did come with a Lance)

I also feel that you need to find a way to make the lancer faster than the other Knights, since I don't think fleet covers it well enough, they were used as scouts, so maybe giving them scout and the agile rule the Warhound and Eldar Revenant have?

I know you said the warden isn't part of the normal Knight group, but it would be a decent option as an Elite...

Not really. The Warden was a long-range fire support variant. So it would make more sense, if it was included, to shift the titan-hunters into the Elite slot and put the Warden into Heavy Support.

Yeah, that's true... I just wish we would have gotten models/official rules for all variants... GW could even do an upgrade sprue and id be happy.

Fluffwise Warden knights should be Elites... They are older variants of Knights piloted by the veterans considered too old for the most front line action.

On the other hand I don't think Knights really lend themselves to a conventional FOC. A standard FOC serves little purpose since it'd almost never have any effect and on the occaision it does you have an army more imbalanced than a non-knight army does when it's maxed out a FOC category.

I'd suggest simply having two columns and simply saying an army can have one selection from the second column for every unit taken from the first column. What Knight is in each column might also vary by House Allegiance.

The Warden Knights, there are 2 worthwhile models to look at one has a large bore cannon (demolisher cannon?) on its back and two smaller cannons on its arms, the other has a missile pod and what appear to be Gatling weapons.

The first variant I'd guess would have a rapid-fire demolisher cannon and 2 autocannons... Probably with heavy stubbers as well.

I imagine the missile/gatling warden would be a neat way to represent an anti-aircraft variant. The FW anti-air whirlwind would be a good basis for the missile pod. The gatling weapons I'd like to see as Kheres assault cannons.

To distinguish the two I'd suggest one be called Warden and the other Margrave Knight. The Margrave were basically the Warden nobles tasked with defense specifically along border territory.

Also if you decide the original scouty chicken legged lancer is worth representing I'd suggest calling them dragoons.

Dragoons... I like that. And when I was working on rules (roughly 6 months ago, way before this release), I used the "Lords of Battle" pdf that BoLS put out a few years back for Knight rules. IIRC they had rules for the Paladin, Lancer, Warden, and a formation for Apoc.

The Dragoon, chicken walkers would be an interesting unit. They're suppose to have the same battle cannons though obviously no giant close combat weapon. They'd probably have outflank or scout as a special rule... Maybe something effecting reserve rolls.

Reading the new fluff it seems they've done away with the Baron Knight as a distinctive variant. It's now said that it's common to see modified Lancer Knights used by Barons.

This is what the codex should have had.

For troops I would have Knights Apparent (like in the codex) and knights standard as elites.

It just seems silly to me to try and impose the FOC onto the Knight army. Given the point values, even if there was a FOC... in upto a 2000 point game the 3 slots in each category are moot since after you take 2 requisite troops and an HQ you can only possible squeeze in 3 more units anyway.

I think it's far simpler to say a player may take one Crusader, Castellan, Lancer, Warden, or Margrave for every Errant, Paladin, or Dragoon in the army list.

Given the new fluff Baron might just be an upgrade available to certain Knights.

It certainly was a missed opportunity to not include more than two. I wonder if we'll see more variations if it proves to be a popular concept.

What about the option to swap out the Heavy Stubber for a Flamer or Heavy Flamer that has the Torrent special rule? Kind of seems like that would be a natural last minute defensive system for the knight.

Any plans for a pattern that has a high volume of fire that would deal with Infantry and fill an anti air role with sheer number of attacks?

Do you plan to model some of these up?

At least the book mentions some of the other Knights by name... That atleast gives us hope for FW or dataslates.



Automatically Appended Next Post:

Any plans for a pattern that has a high volume of fire that would deal with Infantry and fill an anti air role with sheer number of attacks?

The anti-air role was something I mentioned above as a good way to incorporate the Warden knight. One of the old warden knight minis looks like it's ducking with its missile launchers and large assault cannons pointed skyward.

Besides that I think you'd be inventing a weapon option for the Paladin. Twin Hades assault cannons would be cool

 Medium of Death wrote:
What about the option to swap out the Heavy Stubber for a Flamer or Heavy Flamer that has the Torrent special rule? Kind of seems like that would be a natural last minute defensive system for the knight.

I like that idea. A few different options for the heavy stubber would make sense.

Originally, those stubbers were bolters. There's not much reason to swap a heavy stubber for a bolter, or even a storm bolter, but maybe a heavy bolter, the abovementioned flamer or a missile launcher option (for skyfire coverage)...

Would also be nice to give the Errant a powerfist option.

Any plans for a pattern that has a high volume of fire that would deal with Infantry and fill an anti air role with sheer number of attacks?

I wasn't really looking at veering out past the original classes. I need to have a bit of a dig for the original Warden rules to see just what weapon options they had. But aside from that, and the above mentioned potential missile launcher option, it would make more sense within the established setting to leave air defence to allied units.

Do you plan to model some of these up?

I have some easy ideas for how to do it (Dreamforge Beowolf/Grendel for the Quake Cannon, Vulcan cannon for the rotary autocannons, H.E.L.Cannon for the lance) but no budget for this sort of work at the moment.

So no, not unless someone wants to donate some knight kits and the required weapons

Hmm, maybe I should run it past Dreamforge to see if they want some promotion...


Ideally, there should also be some alteration to the armour to denote the lighter/heavier armour on the Lancer and the Heavies. If I did a Warden, it would need some beefing up in the torso and some shortening of the legs.