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I've recently read an article on Be'lakor in which he was included in a 2000 point FMC spam list. I loved the way it played, and it got me thinking? Could I do a similar thing with him at a 1500 point level?

Its IMPORTANT to note - I currently own NONE of these models, so I really am open to anything. The intent is to make it as competitive as possible. I want to upset people's days when this list turns up!

Here's my first attempt at this points level:

1500 Pts - Codex: Chaos Daemons Roster

Total Roster Cost: 1500

HQ: Bloodthirster (1#, 300 pts, Warlord)
1 Bloodthirster + Greater Rewards x1 + Exalted Rewards

HQ: Lord of Change (1#, 250 pts)
1 Lord of Change + Greater Rewards x1

Troops: Pink Horrors of Tzeentch (15#, 135 pts)
15 Pink Horrors of Tzeentch

Troops: Pink Horrors of Tzeentch (15#, 135 pts)
15 Pink Horrors of Tzeentch

Heavy Support: Daemon Prince (1#, 280 pts)
1 Daemon Prince + Daemonic Flight + Greater Rewards x1 + Psyker (Mastery Level 2) + Daemon of Tzeentch

Chaos Space Marine Allies

HQ: Be'lakor (1#, 350 pts)
1 Be'lakor

Troops: Chaos Cultists (10#, 50 pts)
9 Chaos Cultists
1 Cultist Champion


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The question is, do I drop the screamer squad size so I can take another exalted and get the grimoir and the portaglyph?

Maybe I'm blind but I don't see any screamers in this list? Are they in the points cost but just not listed?

Screamers is the not thing I wanted to fit but don't have the points for, I'd have to drop 5 horrors off of each squad AND a greater reward, I don't really want to do that. I need to be able to contest something! Is there a better way of fitting them in?

Needs more Fateweaver.

I considered dropping the blood thirster for fatey, but think I'd enjoy the dirty great beat stick more. I'm undecided.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
IF I was to run Fatey, I think something like this maybe...

1500 Pts - Codex: Chaos Daemons Roster

Total Roster Cost: 1500

HQ: Kairos Fateweaver (1#, 300 pts, Warlord)
1 Kairos Fateweaver

HQ: Lord of Change (1#, 305 pts)
1 Lord of Change + Greater Rewards x1 + Exalted Rewards + Psyker (Mastery Level 3)

Troops: Pink Horrors of Tzeentch (10#, 95 pts)
9 Pink Horrors of Tzeentch
1 Iridescent Horror

Troops: Pink Horrors of Tzeentch (10#, 90 pts)
10 Pink Horrors of Tzeentch

Heavy Support: Daemon Prince (1#, 310 pts)
1 Daemon Prince + Daemonic Flight + Greater Rewards x1 + Exalted Rewards + Psyker (Mastery Level 2) + Daemon of Tzeentch

HQ: Be'lakor (1#, 350 pts)
1 Be'lakor

Troops: Chaos Cultists (10#, 50 pts)
9 Chaos Cultists
1 Cultist Champion

Your roster is fine, but it'll melt against certain lists.
I assume you're buying the Lord of Change a Grimoire? Or else the DP. Even with that, though, you don't have a very durable army. Unless you roll Iron Arm or Endurance, you're going to go down almost instantly against any army with lots of AA.
Tyranid FMC spam, for example, will rip you apart. Not only does Shadow in the Warp cause a ton of trouble for your Psykers, but they have more, cheaper fliers, and lots of Skyfire weapons.
Tau will also demolish you, with a ton of AA, high strength weaponry.

Which list are you on about dude?


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Ok, well I haven't come across any nid players as of yet, but I'd imagine they would cause me serious issues. I can also see tau causing me problems if they pay for enough AA firepower. The guy I normally play takes 2 riptides with sky fire and that's about it!

It's not bad, but he's right man. I've played almost the same list as your revised one against Eldar, White Scars Bikes, and Tau and i have yet to have much success with it. You definitely can't just hurl your princes at your opponent and expect to win. This army takes a lot of finesse to play. That finesse is most prevalent in the movement phase, and efficiently comboing the psychic powers that you get on any given game.

You need to stay in the air as long as possible with all of your Princes. Fatey, LoC, and Tz Prince should all be vector striking and shooting flickering fire as much as possible. Be'Lakor vector striking as well and either using psychic shriek, puppet master, or hallucinate. You also have to make sure that you keep your FMCs in a pretty tight formation so that they can all support each other.

Give it a go and start learning it well. It's not a very forgiving army, but that's why it's fun to play. Every decision counts in a big way.

 astro_nomicon wrote:


You need to stay in the air as long as possible with all of your Princes. Fatey, LoC, and Tz Prince should all be vector striking and shooting flickering fire as much as possible. Be'Lakor vector striking as well and either using psychic shriek, puppet master, or hallucinate. You also have to make sure that you keep your FMCs in a pretty tight formation so that they can all support each other.

Give it a go and start learning it well. It's not a very forgiving army, but that's why it's fun to play. Every decision counts in a big way.

Thanks dude. It's a brand new style and build to me. I've only ever used daemons as allies before. But this sort of advice is invaluable. So I'm guessing it's ALWAYS fatey and not the thirster then? I love the idea of the thirster, I guess the others offer more.....I just wanted that smash....

Your big weakness is, one failed grounding test = one dead monster. (Unless it's the very end of the shooting phase.) Causing 4 or 5 wounds against T5 is easy. T6 is a little harder, but not by much. If you want to mitigate the damage you take by rolling on Biomancy, though, you reduce your total damage output.

Ok, well I contemplate making the DP lvl 3 and the LoC lvl 2 to give me better bio roles? How do people roll for psychic powers?


Automatically Appended Next Post:
I could also drop the greater gift off of the LoC and the iridescent horror and make the both lvl 3...

Ok, so I'm thinking about making my Tzeench DP lvl 3 rather than The Lord of change as he has acces to more powers, BUT I could drop a greater gift to allow them to both be lvl 3...so what's better? More powers and mastery levels? Or a greater gift?

The following comments are based on Very competitive play

Its Very very difficult to play fmc spam at 1500, it can be done at 1750 but I think 1500 is a stretch.

A few things that need to be auto includes are the following

1) fateweaver, the army does not function with out the reroll and the ability to manipulate the warpstorm table in your favor.

2) the helldrake, it is your best answer to so many unforeseeable issues that will occur during the game. He is also fantastic way to clear out multiple small scoring units a turn. He allows you to be aggressive while the rest of your army hides. (often will give you first blood as well).

3) If at all possible you never want to give exalted gifts to Greater daemons. They are T6 so are immune to str 10 instant death, and will make quick work of most things in combat and can be monsters with the right greater gifts, while exalted gifts don't really enhance their abilities (90 % of the time you take them for grim and portal). Save the exalted gifts for princes.

As has been said already, you live and die with this army by how well you can plan ahead in the movement phase. I spend turns 1 2 and 3 (sometimes 4) doing absolutely nothing but hiding and flying off the board. Sometimes first blood isnt awarded until turn 4.

4) with MOT princes you always want to be at least ml 3 (assume one roll will be for flicker fire) so you get 2 rolls on telepathy. This ensures your princes will always have 2 rolls and a shooting attack, or the option of having one. (lash on the mos princes and ff on the mot princes).

Some other observations

Bloodthursters are bad, as awkward as this sounds you really really dont want to get into combat with this list unless you have to. Getting bogged down in combat takes away this lists biggest strength which is mobility. I think in the last 7 games I have only charged 6 times (and 2 were in the game I played vs tau lastnight).

IMO in under 2k I dont think Be'lakor has a place in the list. I have tried multiple times to make it fit,and heres why.

1) He gets all powers on telepathy table, but generally with 2 rolls on the table you should not have an issue rolling a combo that you can make work.
2) 4plus inv save is nice, and he can be grimmed to a 2 plus, but you can not make that save rerollable and hes still only t5. He can't take massed fire power and expect to live.
3) he is leadership 10, so you have to take him in your csm detachment. (you always need fateweaver to be your warlord).


If I had to slim fmc to 1500 here is how I would do it, (it was not easy, took about an hr and I would strongly advise against playing fmc in anything less then 1750.

HQ
Fateweaver :300

Daemon prince 315
-mos
-armor and wings
-greater gift, exalted gift
-ML 2

TROOPS:
10plague bearers 95
-sgt

10 daemonetts 95
- sgt

HEAVY SUPPORT
Daemon prince 335
-MOT
-armor and wings
-exalted
-ml3

Bastion 75

Allies

HQ
Sorc 60

TROOPS
11 cultists 54

FAST ATTACK
helldrake 175







Automatically Appended Next Post:
An alternative build could be the following, and while it goes against what I said about giving an loc an exalted gift, at 1500 its the only other way I can see the list working.

I have never played fmc below 1850 so you would have to test out both builds to see which works. (having 2 extra div rolls could help, but you loose 2 tele rolls, still I would try this build first I think).

Fateweaver

Lord of change
-exalted, greater
-ml3

10plague bearers 95
-sgt

10 daemonetts 95
- sg

Daemon prince
-mot
-ml3
-armor, wings
-greater, exalted

Bastion

Csm sorc

cultists

drake

Ok, I don't ever take fortifications. I know they have their benefits, it's just something I don't do.

I have givin in with the bloodthirster. I've conceded the fact that Khorne is bad whatever you play especially at small points values, and I have realised the bonuses fatey gives you, I know now that he is an auto include.

As for the drake....I know how good they are, but I hate standard fliers. I don't know why, I just can't get them to work for me - and if I'm honest, I don't like playing with them. I'd much rather have a 4D6 flickering fire hit with re rolls to hit!

With my MoT DP, the idea was to use biomancy table as Be'Lakor has telepathy covered. I know he's expensive, but look at it this way, a lvl 3 MoT DP with wings, NO armour, a greater gift, and an exalted gift is 335 points. Be'Lakor is 15 points more but gains eternal warrior, fearless, d3 warp charge for morale checks, access to the WHOLE of telepathy, a 4++, more wounds! and a kick ass Melee weapon. Surely he's an AUTO include in a FMC list nowadays? I'd take him over 2 drakes!

I do have some questions for you though, why pay the expensive points for armour? And why a MoS DP? I see a lot of MoS DP's and I just can't see why? Am I missing something obvious?

 Khaine's Wrath wrote:
Ok, I don't ever take fortifications. I know they have their benefits, it's just something I don't do.

I have givin in with the bloodthirster. I've conceded the fact that Khorne is bad whatever you play especially at small points values, and I have realised the bonuses fatey gives you, I know now that he is an auto include.

As for the drake....I know how good they are, but I hate standard fliers. I don't know why, I just can't get them to work for me - and if I'm honest, I don't like playing with them. I'd much rather have a 4D6 flickering fire hit with re rolls to hit!

With my MoT DP, the idea was to use biomancy table as Be'Lakor has telepathy covered. I know he's expensive, but look at it this way, a lvl 3 MoT DP with wings, NO armour, a greater gift, and an exalted gift is 335 points. Be'Lakor is 15 points more but gains eternal warrior, fearless, d3 warp charge for morale checks, access to the WHOLE of telepathy, a 4++, more wounds! and a kick ass Melee weapon. Surely he's an AUTO include in a FMC list nowadays? I'd take him over 2 drakes!

I do have some questions for you though, why pay the expensive points for armour? And why a MoS DP? I see a lot of MoS DP's and I just can't see why? Am I missing something obvious?

Well I can't argue with your stance on the drake and bastion, BUT those principles will cost you games at the GT level (I assume that's what you mean when talking about very competitive).

So if you look at Belakor as a single model vs a 355 prince surely hes better, but if you look at him army wise, I PROMISE you he's not better especially at lower points values and here is why.
1) first he does't have an exalted gift. You need 2 in the army for the portal and the grim.
2) The Only time you want to roll biomancy is in the mirror match. What does biomancy get you, iron arm and endurance. You will find enfeable almost useless because you need to cast it at the start of the turn and usually you will be out of los of your opponent or out of range. Telepathy however has no useless powers, you could argue 1 is worthless but even that has some pretty cleaver uses.
3) He can't reroll 2s, so hes a bad grim target and as I said before he cant take volume of fire.
4) unless its the last turn of the game or you need to kill a game altering troop unit. I would not put bele into combat, as I said before.. you kill a unit in combat, then you die to shooting.

Hes a monster by himself but he doesn't synergize well with the army as a whole. With so few models you have to have know exactly what you want to do with every model each turn.

Ok, If I put another list up could you take a look?


Automatically Appended Next Post:
OK, a bit of point shuffling and such, and this is what I have come up with:

1500 Pts - Codex: Chaos Daemons Roster

Total Roster Cost: 1500

HQ: Kairos Fateweaver (1#, 300 pts, Warlord)
1 Kairos Fateweaver

HQ: Lord of Change (1#, 305 pts)
1 Lord of Change + Lesser Rewards x1 + Greater Rewards x2 + Psyker (Mastery Level 3)

Troops: Pink Horrors of Tzeentch (10#, 95 pts)
9 Pink Horrors of Tzeentch
1 Iridescent Horror

Troops: Pink Horrors of Tzeentch (10#, 90 pts)
10 Pink Horrors of Tzeentch

Heavy Support: Daemon Prince (1#, 355 pts)
1 Daemon Prince + Daemonic Flight + Warp-forged Armour + Greater Rewards x1 + Exalted Rewards (Grimoire of True Names) + Psyker (Mastery Level 3) + Daemon of Tzeentch

Heavy Support: Daemon Prince (1#, 355 pts)
1 Daemon Prince + Daemonic Flight + Warp-forged Armour + Greater Rewards x1 + Exalted Rewards (The Portalglyph) + Psyker (Mastery Level 3) + Daemon of Tzeentch

 Khaine's Wrath wrote:
Ok, If I put another list up could you take a look?


Automatically Appended Next Post:
OK, a bit of point shuffling and such, and this is what I have come up with:

1500 Pts - Codex: Chaos Daemons Roster

Total Roster Cost: 1500

HQ: Kairos Fateweaver (1#, 300 pts, Warlord)
1 Kairos Fateweaver

HQ: Lord of Change (1#, 305 pts)
1 Lord of Change + Lesser Rewards x1 + Greater Rewards x2 + Psyker (Mastery Level 3)

Troops: Pink Horrors of Tzeentch (10#, 95 pts)
9 Pink Horrors of Tzeentch
1 Iridescent Horror

Troops: Pink Horrors of Tzeentch (10#, 90 pts)
10 Pink Horrors of Tzeentch

Heavy Support: Daemon Prince (1#, 355 pts)
1 Daemon Prince + Daemonic Flight + Warp-forged Armour + Greater Rewards x1 + Exalted Rewards (Grimoire of True Names) + Psyker (Mastery Level 3) + Daemon of Tzeentch

Heavy Support: Daemon Prince (1#, 355 pts)
1 Daemon Prince + Daemonic Flight + Warp-forged Armour + Greater Rewards x1 + Exalted Rewards (The Portalglyph) + Psyker (Mastery Level 3) + Daemon of Tzeentch

Why the horrors?

A couple of reasons:

1 - They are Tzeench and the rest of the army is, so it fits a small amount of fluff.

2 - Flickering fire! I love that.

I've considered plaguebearers due to their immense ability to deal with armour. But I think I just prefer horrors.

 Khaine's Wrath wrote:
A couple of reasons:

1 - They are Tzeench and the rest of the army is, so it fits a small amount of fluff.

2 - Flickering fire! I love that.

I've considered plaguebearers due to their immense ability to deal with armour. But I think I just prefer horrors.

1) cant argue with the fluff, BUT very competitive and fluffly dont always mix.

2) you want your troops to survive, that is their main goal. Daemonetts allow you to deepstrike then run to get them into a position that won't get them one shotted, and plegueberrers are t4 with shrouding, always helps.

Yeah, I've seen your favourites. I like the re roll of 1's too....

 Khaine's Wrath wrote:
Yeah, I've seen your favourites. I like the re roll of 1's too....

I understand, I am just not a fan. I have never really found a situation that made me go "dam I wish I had horrors right now"

Haha, hmmmmm. I'll have a think about it. I don't think anything else will "fit" this list!

What do you think to the 4 FMC's?

 Khaine's Wrath wrote:
Haha, hmmmmm. I'll have a think about it. I don't think anything else will "fit" this list!

What do you think to the 4 FMC's?

I just don't see it working as well with out the drake honestly. 1500 points is a weird value for playing this list at. The lowest I have ever tried is 1750. Any reason for playing 1500?

Almost every GW tournament at Warhammer World they limit you to 1500 points, and I'm desperate to run a daemon FMC list having just acquired the book and loving it!

 Khaine's Wrath wrote:
Almost every GW tournament at Warhammer World they limit you to 1500 points, and I'm desperate to run a daemon FMC list having just acquired the book and loving it!

Ahhh well good luck man, and remember take a few risks as possible on turns 1-3!

Thanks buddy. I appreciate the help. I'm going to post up a new thread with the final list on. Thanks for all the knowledge and advice.

Great discussion, guys. Gave me a few things to mull over in my army as well.

Good luck at Warhammer World, Khaine's Wrath.

Thanks dude? Any ideas/experiences/suggestion?

Sorry just thought I would add a little here...

People take Heldrakes because they autokill marines. Yes they will autokill most xenos, but lots of things autokill xenos. A Heldrake is there to kill bikes because it is a template and auto kill marines. Its a nasty flyer and is very competitive.

Be'Lakor is fierce, if you can't run a DP without a 2++ then the prince isn't worth it. With his access to telepathy biomancy in my opinion is the better option.

Lets look at the options...

Psychic shriek great for low LD armies, if you are facing off againts Orks this is the power you want. It can also be useful in killing off Terminators if you get lucky.

Dominate? Really it could be annoying but going up against marines with LD 9 they are going to be passing those checks more often then not, same goes for Tau and anything than can get up to ld 9, against Necrons and ld10 why would you even bother. Any target you would want to hinder is probably going to pass those checks, take Be'Lakor get access to Hallucinate and you don't need to bother with dominate

Mental Fortitude??? Ever see a daemon fail a morale check? Oh thats right they don't have to take them. Useless.

Puppet Master... yes please and more of it. Would be nice on a prince, but again Be'Lakor comes with this stock, you don't need to roll for it.

Terrify? How often does fear actually play into the game? Is this better than a chance at Iron Arm, Enfeeble, Warp Speed, or Endurance?

Invisibility... again yes please and more of it. Problem here is that it is a 2 WC power, so first you have to get lucky here and roll for it, and then unless you juiced your prince up Lv3 thats all he is casting. Oh yea Be'Lakor comes with this stock

Hallucination...here is the crown jewel in my opinion, why worry about a seercouncil, screamerstar, or O'Vesa star when you can just hallucinate them. Or better yet lets make that unit of terminators punch themselves in the head with power fists. Can you imagine the fun in watching a 30 man Ork Mob start whacking each other in the head? Alas its also a 2 warp charge power and again you have get lucky and roll for it. I am not going to bother saying that Be'Lakor has access to this stock...oh wait I just did.

Now lets look at Biomancy, something Be'Lakor doesn't have access to. Be'Lakor has 4 wounds, T5, and a 4+ invuln that can be changed to a 2+ with the grimoire. Fun fact Grey Knights can get a warding staff which confers a 2+ in close combat for 35 points. A 2+ INVULNERABLE save all the time is an evil thing.

but back to biomancy...

Smite, yep its a shooting attack but its ap2 and you get 4 shots, will wound most xenos and coupled with enfeeble will hurt most marines.

Iron Arm, this is the one your princes want, without it they can't hope to fight off a wraithknight, dreadknight, or even a Riptide. A smash attack from another MC will insta kill a DP. This is the power that made the Swarmlord the biggest baddest close combat fighter in 40k, well before they nerfed the Tyranids and took away Biomancy.

Enfeeble, also a great power lowers strength and toughness and makes flickering fire that much more effective, also messes with terrain as an added bonus.

Endurance, also a great power for a t5 5 wound prince, if by chance you haven't gained these abilities through greater gifts endurance makes your prince that much more survivable.

Life Leech, an even better shooting attack than Smite, with the added bonus of being able to get wounds back, and it is AP2. Daemon Princes don't have much in the way of shooting and Life Leech is a good one.

Warp Speed, yes another great one for Daemon Princes, sure the Initiative boost is wasted, but lets give that high WS high strength, high Initiave daemon prince even more attacks. A Prince with Warp Speed, Iron Arm and the Grimoire is nearly unstoppable. It doesn't happen very often that you get all those things, but when it happens your Daemon Prince is a meat grinder.

Haemorrhage? In my opinion the only really bad biomancy power.

The difference is that with biomancy you are buffing yourself, the best powers outside of Life Leech and Enfeeble can not be denied, hallucinate and Puppet Master can be.

Make up your own mind. Look at the powers, biomancy trumps telepathy because Be'Lakor just hands those powers to you. You can take a chance and roll for a telepathy power that will could help you, or you can just roll and get a Biomancy power that WILL help you.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Khaine's Wrath wrote:
Ok, I don't ever take fortifications. I know they have their benefits, it's just something I don't do.

I have givin in with the bloodthirster. I've conceded the fact that Khorne is bad whatever you play especially at small points values, and I have realised the bonuses fatey gives you, I know now that he is an auto include.

As for the drake....I know how good they are, but I hate standard fliers. I don't know why, I just can't get them to work for me - and if I'm honest, I don't like playing with them. I'd much rather have a 4D6 flickering fire hit with re rolls to hit!

With my MoT DP, the idea was to use biomancy table as Be'Lakor has telepathy covered. I know he's expensive, but look at it this way, a lvl 3 MoT DP with wings, NO armour, a greater gift, and an exalted gift is 335 points. Be'Lakor is 15 points more but gains eternal warrior, fearless, d3 warp charge for morale checks, access to the WHOLE of telepathy, a 4++, more wounds! and a kick ass Melee weapon. Surely he's an AUTO include in a FMC list nowadays? I'd take him over 2 drakes!

I do have some questions for you though, why pay the expensive points for armour? And why a MoS DP? I see a lot of MoS DP's and I just can't see why? Am I missing something obvious?

People take a Slaanesh Daemon Prince because of his access to the lash its a higher str shooting attack. . It along with helfire gaze are two of the best anti air options the FMC has.

Thanks for the comments bud. I love the fact that he has access to all of telepathy, but he's 400 points when you consider the cultist tax. And that's a lot at a 1500 point list. If I pushed to 2000, he is an instant addition. Also I'm quite keen on the biomamcy powers. Add that to the fact that not taking allies allows me to take exalted rewards on DP's and give the greater daemon 2 greater gifts!

As for the drake, I just can't bring myself to bring one. I coped ok before it existed, and I've coped ok since. And he comes with a 110 point tax and will lose me a FMC. I like my 4.

How is the lash attack the best anti air? I've been trying to work this out and I must be missing something. It's not a sky fire weapon. And as far as I can tell FMC's don't get auto sky fire? I assumed that vector striking fliers was my best bet. And if their shooting attacks are assumed to have sky fire then bring on the bolt of change!