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Why has privateer press chosen to use Resin on larger models instead of their similar plastic? (Other than to justify high prices)

Please stay on topic and do not spam on this thread please!

I always chuckle when 40k players complain about skirmish game model costs. Come on.

An unless someone works for PP there is no good answer for this.

They had options for molds, they chose resin. Deal with it?

Atleast since it's PP you know that those huge expensive models aren't necessary to have a shot at winning unlike some other companies we know.

Razzle wrote:


Atleast since it's PP you know that those huge expensive models aren't necessary to have a shot at winning unlike some other companies we know.

Stormwall?

Razzle wrote:
An unless someone works for PP there is no good answer for this.

And in fact, PP have addressed it in the past: They choose what they feel is the best material for the given model.

sing your life wrote:

Razzle wrote:


Atleast since it's PP you know that those huge expensive models aren't necessary to have a shot at winning unlike some other companies we know.

Stormwall?

Cygnar can win without the Stormwall.

 Platuan4th wrote:

Razzle wrote:
An unless someone works for PP there is no good answer for this.

And in fact, PP have addressed it in the past: They choose what they feel is the best material for the given model.

sing your life wrote:

Razzle wrote:


Atleast since it's PP you know that those huge expensive models aren't necessary to have a shot at winning unlike some other companies we know.

Stormwall?

Cygnar can win without the Stormwall.

I wasn't asking what they think is best, but WHY they think it is best.

Many people have won games of 40k without Helldrake, Riptide Etc.

The Stormwall has a lot of synergy with the faction itself. Its a single target to toss Arcane Shield on, its very competent at killing both infantry and hard targets thanks to a combination of good melee and great shooting, and because of its high volume of attacks its more Focus efficient. It also makes better use of the various ranged buffs Cygnar has. You only need to cast Deadeye once on a Stormwall, but the equivalent amount of smaller jacks for firepower would be 2 Defenders and a Cyclone. No way you are casting Deadeye and giving enough Focus out. Plus you have Stormpods.

For the same point cost you can get similar levels of damage output, but not all at the same time.

But what he was getting at was that you don't need a Colossal to counter a Colossal. In fact the counter to a Colossal is actually a couple heavy jacks/beasts. They are actually easier to kill than the same point value of heavies because they cost at least twice as much but don't quite have twice the hitboxes, don't have any more armor, and are a single target while multiple heavies can be spread out to reduce the ability to get to both of them.


In a way, the Stormwall is too good(but keep in mind that its only a minor distinction) for its cost. It has eclipsed the other options Cygnar has as an obvious choice, but netlisting isn't nearly as common in Warmachine as it is in 40k. There are hard counters to the Stormwall and that means you'll have to take another list that covers the weaknesses.

 Grey Templar wrote:
The Stormwall has a lot of synergy with the faction itself. Its a single target to toss Arcane Shield on, its very competent at killing both infantry and hard targets thanks to a combination of good melee and great shooting, and because of its high volume of attacks its more Focus efficient. It also makes better use of the various ranged buffs Cygnar has. You only need to cast Deadeye once on a Stormwall, but the equivalent amount of smaller jacks for firepower would be 2 Defenders and a Cyclone. No way you are casting Deadeye and giving enough Focus out. Plus you have Stormpods.

For the same point cost you can get similar levels of damage output, but not all at the same time.

But what he was getting at was that you don't need a Colossal to counter a Colossal. In fact the counter to a Colossal is actually a couple heavy jacks/beasts. They are actually easier to kill than the same point value of heavies because they cost at least twice as much but don't quite have twice the hitboxes, don't have any more armor, and are a single target while multiple heavies can be spread out to reduce the ability to get to both of them.


In a way, the Stormwall is too good(but keep in mind that its only a minor distinction) for its cost. It has eclipsed the other options Cygnar has as an obvious choice, but netlisting isn't nearly as common in Warmachine as it is in 40k. There are hard counters to the Stormwall and that means you'll have to take another list that covers the weaknesses.

This thread is about resin, not the Stormwall...

You've worked with their plastics, right? The material sucks, the molds they use put lines right over detail, and is generally a pain in the ass to work with. If I had to guess it's not conducive to huge pieces either compared to resin.

The resin on the other hand is way more detailed, molds designed so the pour stumps aren't in (too) awkward places, and just seems like a better material in general.

 sing your life wrote:

 Grey Templar wrote:
The Stormwall has a lot of synergy with the faction itself. Its a single target to toss Arcane Shield on, its very competent at killing both infantry and hard targets thanks to a combination of good melee and great shooting, and because of its high volume of attacks its more Focus efficient. It also makes better use of the various ranged buffs Cygnar has. You only need to cast Deadeye once on a Stormwall, but the equivalent amount of smaller jacks for firepower would be 2 Defenders and a Cyclone. No way you are casting Deadeye and giving enough Focus out. Plus you have Stormpods.

For the same point cost you can get similar levels of damage output, but not all at the same time.

But what he was getting at was that you don't need a Colossal to counter a Colossal. In fact the counter to a Colossal is actually a couple heavy jacks/beasts. They are actually easier to kill than the same point value of heavies because they cost at least twice as much but don't quite have twice the hitboxes, don't have any more armor, and are a single target while multiple heavies can be spread out to reduce the ability to get to both of them.


In a way, the Stormwall is too good(but keep in mind that its only a minor distinction) for its cost. It has eclipsed the other options Cygnar has as an obvious choice, but netlisting isn't nearly as common in Warmachine as it is in 40k. There are hard counters to the Stormwall and that means you'll have to take another list that covers the weaknesses.

This thread is about resin, not the Stormwall...

You brought it up.

 Ostrakon wrote:
You've worked with their plastics, right? The material sucks, the molds they use put lines right over detail, and is generally a pain in the ass to work with. If I had to guess it's not conducive to huge pieces either compared to resin.

The resin on the other hand is way more detailed, molds designed so the pour stumps aren't in (too) awkward places, and just seems like a better material in general.

1. Vinyl (which PP plastic is) is often used to cast large scale, 1/10 kits.
2. Reactions to PP's resin have been mixed like their plastic. Some think it sucks!
3. If resin is so much better why are they even using plastic?
4. I would normally wait until my company had skill with one material before starting use of another.
5. I mentioned Stormwall to show a large PP press model that is OP.

They probably use plastic because that is what everyone else is doing.

But it can't be denied there are often problems with it, especially on the smaller kits. Jacks and beasts aren't too bad to clean the mold lines off of, but its very annoying on smaller models.

Their plastic is also difficult to get straight if a part has bended. Cinerator swords are usually hopelessly bent and screwed up, ain't nobody got time fo dat!

 Grey Templar wrote:
The Stormwall has a lot of synergy with the faction itself. Its a single target to toss Arcane Shield on, its very competent at killing both infantry and hard targets thanks to a combination of good melee and great shooting, and because of its high volume of attacks its more Focus efficient. It also makes better use of the various ranged buffs Cygnar has. You only need to cast Deadeye once on a Stormwall, but the equivalent amount of smaller jacks for firepower would be 2 Defenders and a Cyclone. No way you are casting Deadeye and giving enough Focus out. Plus you have Stormpods.

Deadeye only works on the first shot I believe. So deadeye on a Stormwall is not better than deadeye on a defender. And unless you need a 4th to hit die then boosting is usually more efficient.

Deadeye works best on units, IMO. Turns Cygnar's good shooting into deadly shooting.

And no idea why resin vs plastic. Is resin cheaper on large amounts? Hold better detail? Personally I haven't seen much difference from resin to plastic.

Resin is easier to get better detail on. GW plastics have the detail they do because they're actually using some pretty advanced mold techniques. but resin is both cheaper and holds detail quite well. Its a happy medium between metal and plastic. The problem is it might not be as durable and doesn't resist heat as well.

To be frank, PP's molds all around could use some serious work. The problem with resin, is that certain resins take too long to set to be feasible for mass production on troop levels. Metal and plastic cool quick compared to resin setting. While an all resin line would be awesome, it's just not doable for most companies. It's probably one of the big reasons GW failed with finecast is that they tried to move the production along faster than was actually required.

I used to despise their plastics, and resin models for the most case because I always thought of PP as the "Heavy Metal Miniatures" company.

The plastics are easily bent back into shape though, dump them in hot water for a minute or two and they bend right back, or even use a hair dryer. And with minor cleaning they aren't too bad for the larger models, most warjacks don't need to be in pewter (even though I vastly prefer it) because a lot of the details are fairly large.

The resins though, I have heard (so take this with a grain of salt) that some guys who live in warmer climates have had them melt and warp while in their car, even in figure cases. And, I get a lot of people saying mixed things about them, but I feel another reason they chose the resin is that there wouldn't really be any way to make an all pewter colossal playable on most tables because it would fall through or sink into a lot of foam tables.

Who knows though, all i know is that on eSorscha's feat turn both Beast-09 and the Behemoth are more than capable of killing one on a charge

Judging by how crazy light the (likely hollow) resin parts of my Woldwrath are, I would agree that the issue is probably one of weight. Plastics are pretty light too, and would probably come pretty close to doing the trick, but the resin is pretty shocking to me in weight, and I work with resins all the time.

It is interesting though that the really big resin parts are not multi-part plastics. I am wondering if since they use the vinyl plastic it doesn't work as well for thin joined parts, and so they don't like to split say a Woldwrath torso that could be made of 4-6 plates instead of one big block. That might explain the decision to use resin instead, especially if a mold for a vinyl part that big would be really expensive.

Another guess is the detail. The WW has a lot of detail that involves undercuts that would be a nightmare or perhaps impossible for single pieces in a metal mold instead of rubber. Hell, judging by some of the little bubbles on mine, it might not be ideal for rubber, either.

My guess is that both those factors together, multiple parts being awkward for their plastic and large single pieces being extremely difficult for metal molds, put them on resin instead of plastic, and metal would just be crazy expensive. Gargossals have at least 6 times the volume as a bulky heavy jack, and maybe more. If they were in all metal they would have to cost at least 150-200$ retail, and that would be low balling it I think.

Considering the raw material cost for enough pewter to make a woldwrath (or any other col/garg) would probably be 60-100$ (about 20$ per lb depending on region), yeah, all pewter colossals/gargs would not be in anyone's best interest. Any soft metal is going to be hands down better than any synthetic available currently. We just have to put up with them trying to keep OUR costs down until they can sort out the issues with materials.

I use a two part acrylic mounting compound to run samples at work. I wonder if PP ever considered it. I would think that it would be perfect for models - very strong and rigid, resistant to high heat, cures in 10-15 minutes. I dont know how much it would cost to make a colossal though.

Also Sing - your Stormwall post appears to be suggesting that Cygnar cannot win a game without the Stormwall.

 ImperialFists2ndCompany wrote:
The resins though, I have heard (so take this with a grain of salt) that some guys who live in warmer climates have had them melt and warp while in their car, even in figure cases.

I live in the tropics, and the long thin parts of my GW resin models droop and deform after they have been sitting in the hot car.

 DanielBeaver wrote:

 ImperialFists2ndCompany wrote:
The resins though, I have heard (so take this with a grain of salt) that some guys who live in warmer climates have had them melt and warp while in their car, even in figure cases.

I live in the tropics, and the long thin parts of my GW resin models droop and deform after they have been sitting in the hot car.

AFAIK that is only a problem with Failcrap, I live in a fairly hot country as well and I never experienced or heard of any similar experiences with either FW type resin or with PP resin (but Failcrap models will droop when stored even at room temperatures and outside of direct sunlight).

Yea most resins are quite rigid and won't droop like that at all. Failcast is sort of a rubbery resin which is quite resistant to shocks but susceptible to heat.

i feel like i read something about PP going to a different source for their plastics. that's really all i need to get back into Warmachine with the quickness.

I just picked up a Retribution starter, and the myrmidon models are dreadful. i WAS impressed by how easy it was to glue, carve and bend misshapen pieces though.

i think resin works best for them for right now and for their larger models, but they would be kings of the wargaming world for me if they just used the same plastic as GW.

Resin also makes some of the model designs possible.

I've got a Prime Axiom, it has some very narrow attachment points on the arms and body that simply would not be able to hold together if the majority of parts were pewter. My Wraith Engine has been subjected to suitably ridiculous temperatures in the trunk of my car (whoops, forgot I brought him to a mid-July Saturday game!) and he didn't droop in the slightest.

And your opinions on the Stormwall, while common, don't show much real world experience.

I think they used resin because they figured there would be much lower production runs than with most of their plastic kits. Only very few players have more than one copy of a particular colossal, and even then it's not generally a new player purchase, while most of the plastic kits share a chassis with others or tend to be bought in larger batches. Plastic lights tend to share a chassis with others, the multi-heavy kits are always popular and the cassis used is usually in battle boxes too, plastic units tend to share a body with other units (3 types of man-o-war, 2 types of plastic exemplar, ect.). Because plastic tends to be cheaper in higher production runs, it might not be worth using it for the colossal construction.

The other possibility is the sheer size of the pieces might make producing plastic moulds more difficult - the pieces are significantly larger than heavy Warjack pieces, and that might run up against machine/material limitations for their type of plastic.


As for the Stormwall thing, if anyone thought they were trying to gouge customers by making expensive must take models, you'd also have to explain most of the rest of the gargantuans, which are mostly sub-par. Fact is, Cygnar was struggling in the tournament scene pre-Colossals, and needed a boost to their competitiveness. With so few releases at that time (only 2 models), and needing a faction wide boost, the Stormwall was probably designed to give Cygnar that edge they needed, but it did put a big finger on the scales of intra-faction balance, eclipsing many other war jacks in most lists. So in my opinion, it was a balance thing more than anything, as inter-faction balance (as opposed to intra-faction balance) is a huge selling point of their game, and they like to maintain it as well as possible.

 Grey Templar wrote:

Their plastic is also difficult to get straight if a part has bended. Cinerator swords are usually hopelessly bent and screwed up, ain't nobody got time fo dat!

Incidentally there is a ludicrously simple fix. Boil some water and dip the weapon (halberd, sword, whatever) in it for about 3 seconds- it will become very pliable. Pull it out and straighten it- hold for 5 seconds. Fixed. Bastion halberds will actually bend back into shape from their own weight if you hang them downwards.

The plastics have their issues no doubt but straightening bend bits is very easy.

I've done that, and while it works for some of the bits, others it doesn't. Like Cinerator Swords. Good thing I converted them into Bastions.

Really? Worked a treat on mine. Huh.

Mine were badly bent. They were literally rolled up like a wood shaving.

Yeeesh. That's terrible. Admittedly mine weren't nearly so damaged but for anything up to right angles it worked fine.