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So, I'm thinking about fielding a full unit of Mandrakes, and adding a Haemonculus. The only way to do that, of course, is to start them in Reserve, but if I do I will be able to Outflank with them, and when they arrive they'll already have access to Baleblast.

Not the 'best' unit in the game, of course, but I don't think it would be terrible either. What do you guys think?

Will you face warp talons ?

(sorry for the sarcasm, but questions about the competitve aspect of a non competitive choice are rarely productive)

It would probably work better if you infiltrated the Mandrakes 12'' up from the edge of your deployment zone then Zoom the Haemonculi up to meet them first turn to drop off the pain token. That way you will get your shooting power earlier and *might* be able to do more. Give the Haemonculi a Liquifier and Venom Blade for close range help and they *should* be able to beat most ranged squads quite handily with a 5++/5+++ FnP being the same as a 4+. Not competitive, but the best way to do it if you are taking them, but i would advise at max a unit of 8 to avoid over kill.

Or you could play with a Spirit seer and get Runes of Battle on them?

Not everyone likes allies, just offering something that might make them better...insta shrouding would be good?

Use them with a hamey, and call them wracks. I like the models better than the wrack models, but the rules are just horrid. If your dead set on actually using them as mandrakes, outflanking with a hamey is OK. They have bolter shooting, and a squad of 10 will only kill a couple of marines. If you can get the hamey into liquifier range you could possibly wipe a small dev squad, heavy weapon team or something. Or if your feeling extra risky, S4 can glance down any Av10...

Liquifier and venom blade are required for the hamey, and you might want a nightfiend to eat challenges and get some prescision shots.

Again, I would still just use them as wracks. Instead of something that was made at an evil build a bear, you get monsters from the ring. Most people won't notice or care(basically the same size, similar stats) if you use them as "counts as".

Well, look at their special rules. Infiltarte, stealth, fleet, move through cover, and 5++.

What does that mean they're the masters of? Cover. They can infiltrate into it, and they get a bonus to their save. Then, when it's time to leave cover to go attack something, they have move through cover, and fleet, and get to bring 5+ of whatever their cover save was with them.

Then look at their damage profile. Their still relatively low points cost (compared to, say, terminators) and their 5++ means that they're going to be best against expensive units with relatively few attacks that have good Ap. Meanwhile, without a good Ap themselves, they're going to want to attack stuff that doesn't have the best armor save itself.

So, set up the venn diagram. What units have good Ap and a bad Sv? What units are going to be coming in close, but you want to have a bit of cover against in the meantime?

Let's see...

How about grey knights? They have storm bolters, so you want cover, and they all have Ap3 weapons, and they only have an Sv3+. 10 mandrakes is the same cost as 7 strike marines. 7 strike marines overwatch killing 1 mandrake. The mandrakes strike first laying down 27 attacks for 13.5 hits for 6.75 wounds for 2.25 dead marines. The 5 strike marines attack back with 5 attacks for 2.5 hits for 1.25 wounds for .83 dead mandrakes. The battle will take awhile, but the 8 mandrakes will eventually grind down the 5 strike squad members.

Another case is against most MCs. Yes, yes, you're the poison army, but most MCs are capable of only putting down 1 mandrake or less per turn thanks to the invul save and decent enough WS. They could at least tarpit it.

Another one would be terminators, especially THSS termies that rely so heavily on Ap2 being good, and rely so heavily on their opponents getting frustrated by the 3++, neither of which applies to mandrakes, and with move through cover and fleet, they're probably getting the charge in. For reference, on the charge 15 mandrakes kill 2 of a 5-man THSS squad before they get to strike, and the 3 remaining kill only 1 or 2 mandrakes in return. They get ground down pretty badly by the drakes.

They're also S4, which means glancing vehicles to death as well.

But that's just their killing profile. I think the key to mandrakes strategically is going to be that infiltrate+stealth+MTC.

Because think about it for a moment. What is DE better than anyone else at? Taking field position. With contemptuous ease, they can fill anywhere on the board with a big pile of stuff that takes up a bunch of space. You can sort of take any 2x2 foot hunk of board on any turn and say "this part's mine". On the other hand, what is DE worse than everyone else at? Holding field position. The moment stuff gets into even bolter range you've either got to attack forward or retreat backwards.

The mandrake, then provides something that's a rarity in the DE codex. They can, from the beginning of the game, create a little "no zone" for your opponent. They're going to be set up right in the place you want to go, but if you get anywhere near them, you're guaranteed to get a big pile of S4 attacks thrown at you, and that high-I and ++ are going to make the experience annoying. Maybe it would be better to just ignore that part of the board and focus on taking down those raiders.

Not to say that they will stand up to a determined assault, but they're going to be a deterrent to going somewhere, sort of like a single vindicator. Yes, you can kill vindicators, but you could also sort of just avoid them for a little while and let them have that part of the board.

If ever there was an army that needed to practice good board control, it's DE. Mandrakes help this.

I believe Ailaros hit most of the relevant points. On another note, if you have the elite slots spare, 3 small units of 5 can infiltrate in and start harassing heavy hitters to keep your other units alive, and might do some damage on their own. It would help with a "threat overload" style list fairly well.

 Ailaros wrote:
Well, look at their special rules. Infiltarte, stealth, fleet, move through cover, and 5++.

What does that mean they're the masters of? Cover. They can infiltrate into it, and they get a bonus to their save. Then, when it's time to leave cover to go attack something, they have move through cover, and fleet, and get to bring 5+ of whatever their cover save was with them.

Then look at their damage profile. Their still relatively low points cost (compared to, say, terminators) and their 5++ means that they're going to be best against expensive units with relatively few attacks that have good Ap. Meanwhile, without a good Ap themselves, they're going to want to attack stuff that doesn't have the best armor save itself.

So, set up the venn diagram. What units have good Ap and a bad Sv? What units are going to be coming in close, but you want to have a bit of cover against in the meantime?

Let's see...

How about grey knights? They have storm bolters, so you want cover, and they all have Ap3 weapons, and they only have an Sv3+. 10 mandrakes is the same cost as 7 strike marines. 7 strike marines overwatch killing 1 mandrake. The mandrakes strike first laying down 27 attacks for 13.5 hits for 6.75 wounds for 2.25 dead marines. The 5 strike marines attack back with 5 attacks for 2.5 hits for 1.25 wounds for .83 dead mandrakes. The battle will take awhile, but the 8 mandrakes will eventually grind down the 5 strike squad members.

Another case is against most MCs. Yes, yes, you're the poison army, but most MCs are capable of only putting down 1 mandrake or less per turn thanks to the invul save and decent enough WS. They could at least tarpit it.

Another one would be terminators, especially THSS termies that rely so heavily on Ap2 being good, and rely so heavily on their opponents getting frustrated by the 3++, neither of which applies to mandrakes, and with move through cover and fleet, they're probably getting the charge in. For reference, on the charge 15 mandrakes kill 2 of a 5-man THSS squad before they get to strike, and the 3 remaining kill only 1 or 2 mandrakes in return. They get ground down pretty badly by the drakes.

They're also S4, which means glancing vehicles to death as well.

But that's just their killing profile. I think the key to mandrakes strategically is going to be that infiltrate+stealth+MTC.

Because think about it for a moment. What is DE better than anyone else at? Taking field position. With contemptuous ease, they can fill anywhere on the board with a big pile of stuff that takes up a bunch of space. You can sort of take any 2x2 foot hunk of board on any turn and say "this part's mine". On the other hand, what is DE worse than everyone else at? Holding field position. The moment stuff gets into even bolter range you've either got to attack forward or retreat backwards.

The mandrake, then provides something that's a rarity in the DE codex. They can, from the beginning of the game, create a little "no zone" for your opponent. They're going to be set up right in the place you want to go, but if you get anywhere near them, you're guaranteed to get a big pile of S4 attacks thrown at you, and that high-I and ++ are going to make the experience annoying. Maybe it would be better to just ignore that part of the board and focus on taking down those raiders.

Not to say that they will stand up to a determined assault, but they're going to be a deterrent to going somewhere, sort of like a single vindicator. Yes, you can kill vindicators, but you could also sort of just avoid them for a little while and let them have that part of the board.

If ever there was an army that needed to practice good board control, it's DE. Mandrakes help this.

Every time I see posts like this, I wish I had a DE army

Sinful Hero wrote:On another note, if you have the elite slots spare, 3 small units of 5 can infiltrate in

Oh, right. I also forgot a really obvious one - infiltration denial.

You can sort of think of them as DE's servo skulls... sort of.

Vash wrote:Every time I see posts like this, I wish I had a DE army

Well, you just need to play an army that I have any amount of vague interest in