Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

Is the Null Rod the hard counter for those annoying squads buffed by Invisibility? (only fire snap shots, only hit on 6's in melee)

The Null Rod says, "A null rod is a power weapon. Any unsaved wounds caused by a null rod inflict instant death on psykers. Furthermore, the bearer (and his squad) cannot be affected by psychic powers (friendly or enemy) in any way."

Can the Null Rod packing inquisitor join a shooty squad and gun-down those pesky invisible units?

No, because the power is effecting the enemy unit, not your own.

If you're going to argue the snap shot restriction is affecting your unit, will you also claim that a summoned unit of daemons cannot hit you in close combat, because they are the effect of a psychic power?

Weird. Matt asked this question. Never responded to your counter and then a week later in a tactics thread is claiming a null rod works on invisibility.

Seems like this thread in this forum would be the better place to make his argument.

Super Newb wrote:
Weird. Matt asked this question. Never responded to your counter and then a week later in a tactics thread is claiming a null rod works on invisibility.

Seems like this thread in this forum would be the better place to make his argument.

Yeah, this threat got buried and I lost it.

No, because the power is effecting the enemy unit, not your own.

The RAW counter is, if I normally hit on 3's, and now I'm hitting on 6's, I am affected by the psychic power. As per the Daemonhunter Rod, I cannot be affected "In Any Way."
It's the in any way bit that makes it all encompassing.

Here's another example.
A Divination psyker casts Scrier's Gaze, and I have a unit with nullrod in reserve. I would not take the re-rolls for reserves while rolling for the unit with the Nullrod, but would for the other units.

If "any way" in the null rod rull means ignoring more than buffs, debuffs and psychic shooting on the unit holding the null rod, well then, you'd basically have to FORGE THE NARRATIVE and create a "MIRROR UNIVERSE" and play two games. One for the unit with the null rod, one for every other unit in your army. You want to know why? Because a null rod ignores summoned demons. It ignores when your opponent levitates themself closer to you and then gets in shooting range. And so on. So play the turn once pretending the demons aren't there, then play it again when they are. Because the null rod unit created an alternate universe

 HawaiiMatt wrote:

The RAW counter is, if I normally hit on 3's, and now I'm hitting on 6's, I am affected by the psychic power. As per the Daemonhunter Rod, I cannot be affected "In Any Way."
It's the in any way bit that makes it all encompassing.

Here's another example.
A Divination psyker casts Scrier's Gaze, and I have a unit with nullrod in reserve. I would not take the re-rolls for reserves while rolling for the unit with the Nullrod, but would for the other units.

It still begs the question, how do you then deal with units of summoned deamons? The unit with a null rod is immune to them as they are the result of a psychic power?

Its not effecting the Null Rod bearer in any way. It effects the unit targeted by the power. It fundamentally changes that unit (by making them invisible). The snapfire and "Only hit on 6s" is just a condition now to hit the new unit.

 HawaiiMatt wrote:
The RAW counter is, if I normally hit on 3's, and now I'm hitting on 6's, I am affected by the psychic power. As per the Daemonhunter Rod, I cannot be affected "In Any Way."

That is in no way, shape or form RAW. By using that argument your opponent would not be able to cast any psychic powers at all (even Blessings) because they would make his troops more effective against yours.

 Marius Xerxes wrote:

 HawaiiMatt wrote:

The RAW counter is, if I normally hit on 3's, and now I'm hitting on 6's, I am affected by the psychic power. As per the Daemonhunter Rod, I cannot be affected "In Any Way."
It's the in any way bit that makes it all encompassing.

Here's another example.
A Divination psyker casts Scrier's Gaze, and I have a unit with nullrod in reserve. I would not take the re-rolls for reserves while rolling for the unit with the Nullrod, but would for the other units.

It still begs the question, how do you then deal with units of summoned deamons? The unit with a null rod is immune to them as they are the result of a psychic power?

Yes I noticed that too. He ignored your main question in his response.

 Ghaz wrote:

 HawaiiMatt wrote:
The RAW counter is, if I normally hit on 3's, and now I'm hitting on 6's, I am affected by the psychic power. As per the Daemonhunter Rod, I cannot be affected "In Any Way."

That is in no way, shape or form RAW. By using that argument your opponent would not be able to cast any psychic powers at all (even Blessings) because they would make his troops more effective against yours.

Exalted.

But, technically, they could cast whatever powers all day still. The null rod doesn't stop that. Just that one unit with the null rod would never be affected by said powers, should they come into play against them. The powers would work as normal versus any non null rod unit.

FYI this is not my personal opinion, but is along the logic lines of the OP.

But by his logic a power cast against a different unit would still be affecting the unit with the Null Rod. Its all cause and effect. For example, if he casts a Witchfire against a different unit that causes casualties that forces the unit to fall back and clears the way for them to assault the unit with the Null Rod then it affected that unit. The only way to ensure that psychic powers don't affect the unit with the Null Rod "in any way" is to disallow them altogether.

 Ghaz wrote:
But by his logic a power cast against a different unit would still be affecting the unit with the Null Rod. Its all cause and effect. For example, if he casts a Witchfire against a different unit that causes casualties that forces the unit to fall back and clears the way for them to assault the unit with the Null Rod then it affected that unit. The only way to ensure that psychic powers don't affect the unit with the Null Rod "in any way" is to disallow them altogether.

At some point you have to realize you go from the reasonable, to the unreasonable to explain your point or refute someone else.

I think the OP had a reasonable approach in his question. Does direct interaction between a unit under the effect of a psychic power get cancelled out by a unit with a null rod.

If he came in with the extreme examples you bring up, we would surely disagree. But he didn't. Given its reasonable interpretation, its worth reasonable discussion and not have wild extremes thrown around. Despite its logical course, we can draw reasonable lines before we get there.

 Marius Xerxes wrote:

 Ghaz wrote:
But by his logic a power cast against a different unit would still be affecting the unit with the Null Rod. Its all cause and effect. For example, if he casts a Witchfire against a different unit that causes casualties that forces the unit to fall back and clears the way for them to assault the unit with the Null Rod then it affected that unit. The only way to ensure that psychic powers don't affect the unit with the Null Rod "in any way" is to disallow them altogether.

At some point you have to realize you go from the reasonable, to the unreasonable to explain your point or refute someone else.

I think the OP had a reasonable approach in his question. Does direct interaction between a unit under the effect of a psychic power get cancelled out by a unit with a null rod.

If he came in with the extreme examples you bring up, we would surely disagree. But he didn't. Given its reasonable interpretation, its worth reasonable discussion and not have wild extremes thrown around. Despite its logical course, we can draw reasonable lines before we get there.

I'd say a reasonable interpretation is his unit is not effected by any power, but is attempting to hit a unit that is.
Indirect effect, so the Null rod does nothing in this case.

 Marius Xerxes wrote:

 Ghaz wrote:
But by his logic a power cast against a different unit would still be affecting the unit with the Null Rod. Its all cause and effect. For example, if he casts a Witchfire against a different unit that causes casualties that forces the unit to fall back and clears the way for them to assault the unit with the Null Rod then it affected that unit. The only way to ensure that psychic powers don't affect the unit with the Null Rod "in any way" is to disallow them altogether.

At some point you have to realize you go from the reasonable, to the unreasonable to explain your point or refute someone else.

I think the OP had a reasonable approach in his question. Does direct interaction between a unit under the effect of a psychic power get cancelled out by a unit with a null rod.

Like summoned demons? That still hasn't been answered.

Also you've got everything backwards. The OP's argument is itself unreasonable and a way to show that is to take it to its absurd conclusion.

 Marius Xerxes wrote:

 Ghaz wrote:
But by his logic a power cast against a different unit would still be affecting the unit with the Null Rod. Its all cause and effect. For example, if he casts a Witchfire against a different unit that causes casualties that forces the unit to fall back and clears the way for them to assault the unit with the Null Rod then it affected that unit. The only way to ensure that psychic powers don't affect the unit with the Null Rod "in any way" is to disallow them altogether.

At some point you have to realize you go from the reasonable, to the unreasonable to explain your point or refute someone else.

I think the OP had a reasonable approach in his question. Does direct interaction between a unit under the effect of a psychic power get cancelled out by a unit with a null rod.

If he came in with the extreme examples you bring up, we would surely disagree. But he didn't. Given its reasonable interpretation, its worth reasonable discussion and not have wild extremes thrown around. Despite its logical course, we can draw reasonable lines before we get there.

Except his position isn't reasonable as the psychic power did not affect the unit with the Null Rod. It affected the unit that attacked the unit with the Null Rod. If you let the Null Rod work against the psychic power that affected the attacking unit, at what point do you decide to stop? And what rules do you have to support that stopping point?

Last turn a Molten Beam killed a nearby Librarian with a Power Field Generator. Does the unit with the Null Rod still get the 4++?

 Ghaz wrote:

Except his position isn't reasonable as the psychic power did not affect the unit with the Null Rod. It affected the unit that attacked the unit with the Null Rod. If you let the Null Rod work against the psychic power that affected the attacking unit, at what point do you decide to stop? And what rules do you have to support that stopping point?

That's where I disagree. If he is shooting at an invis unit, that power, though casted on the enemy unit, is having a direct effect on his null rod shooting unit. It is literally affecting them. I see why the question was reasonable to ask.

At what point do you stop was the basis of my question, when I asked how would you deal with summoned deamons attacking a null rod unit.

Don't mistake my seeing the question as reasonable as saying "sure, that works". I just don't see a reason to throw out wild extremes as a needed defense to ones counter argument. Id like a break from American politics. At least while on Dakka.

 grendel083 wrote:

 Marius Xerxes wrote:

 Ghaz wrote:
But by his logic a power cast against a different unit would still be affecting the unit with the Null Rod. Its all cause and effect. For example, if he casts a Witchfire against a different unit that causes casualties that forces the unit to fall back and clears the way for them to assault the unit with the Null Rod then it affected that unit. The only way to ensure that psychic powers don't affect the unit with the Null Rod "in any way" is to disallow them altogether.

At some point you have to realize you go from the reasonable, to the unreasonable to explain your point or refute someone else.

I think the OP had a reasonable approach in his question. Does direct interaction between a unit under the effect of a psychic power get cancelled out by a unit with a null rod.

If he came in with the extreme examples you bring up, we would surely disagree. But he didn't. Given its reasonable interpretation, its worth reasonable discussion and not have wild extremes thrown around. Despite its logical course, we can draw reasonable lines before we get there.

I'd say a reasonable interpretation is his unit is not effected by any power, but is attempting to hit a unit that is.
Indirect effect, so the Null rod does nothing in this case.

But the rule for the rod isn't direct vs indirect, it's affected.
Where I would draw the line?
If I'm rolling to hit or to wound, I would roll normally, as if you went psychically buffed (that way, the psychic buff isn't coming into play). When your unit is rolling the dice (cover save, ward save) it's your units dice being affected, not mine, so the buff would work.

As for Conjured powers, it's creating a new unit that once in play, acts as a unit out of the respective codex (at this time, daemon). Once in play, the unit created isn't a psychic effect, only arrived by psychic means.

By using "My dice" vs "your dice" as the distinction, it's clear cut without wonky overlap.


But, as I said in the other thread, the Null Rod is just one of many things that is very out of date in the Grey Knight Codex, and needs to be discussed before the game.

Once a unit has spawned, its on the table and is a functional unit in its own right. The act of spawning it could be a Psychic Power such as daemon summoning, but it could as be a Tervigon birthing Gaunts which is definitely not a Psychic Power. As such, a Null Rod has no effect on the summoned status of a daemon unit, other than causing Instant Death.

SJ

 HawaiiMatt wrote:
Where I would draw the line?

You've mentioned the line already:

But the rule for the rod isn't direct vs indirect

There's your line. Direct Vs. Indirect.

Once you cross it, how do you justify one and not another?
Hitting a unit under the effect of a power...
Hitting a unit summoned by a power...

At either of these you've crossed the line into "indirect effects" and it's a very slippery slope.

I'd draw the line at direct, and no further.

 Marius Xerxes wrote:
That's where I disagree. If he is shooting at an invis unit, that power, though casted on the enemy unit, is having a direct effect on his null rod shooting unit. It is literally affecting them

No It is not directly affecting them. It is directly affecting the unit that the power was cast on. It is not direct if there is more than two links in the chain, and your chain has three (psyker->targeted unit->unit with null rod).

 grendel083 wrote:

 HawaiiMatt wrote:
Where I would draw the line?

You've mentioned the line already:

But the rule for the rod isn't direct vs indirect

There's your line. Direct Vs. Indirect.

Once you cross it, how do you justify one and not another?
Hitting a unit under the effect of a power...
Hitting a unit summoned by a power...

At either of these you've crossed the line into "indirect effects" and it's a very slippery slope.

I'd draw the line at direct, and no further.

And I answered the daemon issue. Once summoned, they aren't psychic, they behave exactly like a unit out of codex daemons.
A unit that is invisible won't be a game turn later, the power ends.

Yet the bullets from a unit that had their shooting skills enhanced are?

 HawaiiMatt wrote:
And I answered the daemon issue. Once summoned, they aren't psychic, they behave exactly like a unit out of codex daemons.
A unit that is invisible won't be a game turn later, the power ends.

You answered with an opinion though.
The whole unit is still an indirect effect of a psychic power.

Ok, how about Prescience? If a unit was hit by the re-rolled dice, they have been effected by a Psychic power.
Again an indirect effect.

The list goes on. Are you going to try and come up with a different answer each time for why all those indirect effects shouldn't apply except the indirect effect of invisibility?
You've already crossed the line into Indirect Effects. Slippery slope...

 jeffersonian000 wrote:
Once a unit has spawned, its on the table and is a functional unit in its own right. The act of spawning it could be a Psychic Power such as daemon summoning, but it could as be a Tervigon birthing Gaunts which is definitely not a Psychic Power. As such, a Null Rod has no effect on the summoned status of a daemon unit, other than causing Instant Death.

SJ

But this isn't different. Once the psychic power is manifested, the unit is now invisible. No different than if it granted the unit shrouded. Or gave them +1 weapon skill. Would you argue that a warlock that gave his unit +1 ws wouldn't get the +1 ws when in combat with a unit with a nul rod? That's the same as the deamon argument. the psychic power did something. now the effect of that is affecting you..

"Can I resolve my unit's action referring solely to the status on the table without having to refer directly to the psychic power involved?" Shrouding, yes, invisibility, no. Invisibility is having a direct affect on that unit because rules that are in the invisibility power itself are being applied to it.

A CSM sorc doombolts a Rhino beside the unit with the null rod, rolls well and it explodes.

Does the explosion hit the inquisitor's unit, does it affect the inquisitor's unit?

What about Doombolt's special rules. It increases the explosion radius, possibly hitting more of the Inquisitor's unit.

Is the vehicle explosion doing the affecting or the doombolt?

 Exergy wrote:
A CSM sorc doombolts a Rhino beside the unit with the null rod, rolls well and it explodes.

Does the explosion hit the inquisitor's unit, does it affect the inquisitor's unit?

What about Doombolt's special rules. It increases the explosion radius, possibly hitting more of the Inquisitor's unit.

Is the vehicle explosion doing the affecting or the doombolt? [/quote

I'd actually say no it isnt it effected the Rhino. The explosion comes from the rhino not a psychic power but yeh I can see what your getting it throughout all these posts.

I think it has to be direct only or it can get silly

And changing the Null Rod unit's to hit from whatever to 6's isn't direct? It's a direct result of the psychic power.

I think people are getting too caught up in defining the target of the power rather than the target of the effects, which aren't the same thing at all.

 Fenris-77 wrote:
And changing the Null Rod unit's to hit from whatever to 6's isn't direct? It's a direct result of the psychic power.

So a toughness buff to a unit is also "direct" because another unit may shoot at it at some point and have a tougher time wounding it?

Did I go to school somewhere were the word 'direct' had a different meaning than it does to some of you folks?