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Can someone clarify this for me? There's one sentence in the Psychic Phase section that vaguely implies (not states) that units may only manifest as many powers as they have PMLs. But there are other places that vaguely imply (not state) they may manifest unlimited powers, provided you have the WC in your pool to do so.

The psychic phase clearly states a psyker may attempt to manifest a number of powers equal to their mastery level.

All Psykers that do not have a Mastery level are also stated in the rulebook as being treated as Mastery Level 1.

So you can manifest a number of powers equal to your ML or 1, whichever is higher.

I think the only limit is that you can not cast the same power with the same psyker in one turn. So even a ML1 can cast two powers. A ML2 can cast three powers, etc. not including the force spell if they're so armed.

You are otherwise limited by your total warp charges. So you can max out spells on one psyker (using others to boost your warp charges) and next turn max out somewhere else. Either concentrating dice on important spells or casting with fewer dice and less reliability. Basically, this system introduces more choice and flexibility, and cuts out the old 'special rule on a ld test' system.

Kyutaru wrote:
The psychic phase clearly states a psyker may attempt to manifest a number of powers equal to their mastery level.[...]

Does it? Can you give us the page? I can't seem to find it.

All I see is, a psyker can't use the same power twice (except Ahriman as the CSM FAQ tells us).

Kyutaru wrote:
The psychic phase clearly states a psyker may attempt to manifest a number of powers equal to their mastery level.

All Psykers that do not have a Mastery level are also stated in the rulebook as being treated as Mastery Level 1.

So you can manifest a number of powers equal to your ML or 1, whichever is higher.

No, it says that a psykers mastery level determines how many powers it can cast. Big difference. Course, a psykers mastery level also determines how many powers it HAS. IE a ML1 psyker will always have two powers due to its mastery level. So since its mastery level has determined that it has two powers, wouldn't the same reasoning mean it can cast two powers?


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Hansisaf wrote:

Kyutaru wrote:
The psychic phase clearly states a psyker may attempt to manifest a number of powers equal to their mastery level.[...]

Does it? Can you give us the page? I can't seem to find it.

All I see is, a psyker can't use the same power twice (except Ahriman as the CSM FAQ tells us).

Page 22 or 24, IIRC is the section he misquoted.

 don_mondo wrote:
No, it says that a psykers mastery level determines how many powers it can cast. Big difference. Course, a psykers mastery level also determines how many powers it HAS. IE a ML1 psyker will always have two powers due to its mastery level. So since its mastery level has determined that it has two powers, wouldn't the same reasoning mean it can cast two powers?

I understand what you're saying, but I disagree. That would be delving for hidden meaning like the conspiracy theorists who believe the Bible predicts the future. The exact wording is "The number of psychic powers a Psyker can use each turn depends on his Mastery Level." Mastery Level is a number, with no other rule implications beyond using that number as a reference for psychic allowances and deny comparisons. It may as well be a stat like Strength because it's a static value. The number of powers you can manifest per turn is dependent on a number. To me, that says the rules haven't changed from 6th edition, you can still only cast that number.

If you want to start reading between the lines or extrapolating information that may not actually be there because a belief that the developers left behind some cryptic clues for us to decipher that may lead to the true number of powers one can cast per turn instead of taking the most face value option in lue of specifics, I'll take my leave of that discussion.

Point is, it's worded just vaguely enough that we cannot be sure what they meant. Would it have been so hard to say a ML1 psyker may only cast one power per turn, etc. Too bad they didn't include an example or two. Personally, I prefer your interpretation, but just cannot be sure that it is the correct one.

I thought it was pretty clear...it states in bold that the number of powers a psykers can use each turned is determined by his mastery level.

 don_mondo wrote:
Point is, it's worded just vaguely enough that we cannot be sure what they meant. Would it have been so hard to say a ML1 psyker may only cast one power per turn, etc. Too bad they didn't include an example or two. Personally, I prefer your interpretation, but just cannot be sure that it is the correct one.

Its not all that vague, to perform a power, you pick the psyker who is casting it, then the limitation comes in because you've picked a psyker.

 don_mondo wrote:
Point is, it's worded just vaguely enough that we cannot be sure what they meant. Would it have been so hard to say a ML1 psyker may only cast one power per turn, etc. Too bad they didn't include an example or two. Personally, I prefer your interpretation, but just cannot be sure that it is the correct one.

Pretty clear to me. For example, a ML 2 Psycher will not always have 3 powers. If my Spiritseer rolls once on Rune of Battle, and once on Telepathy, he now has generated only 2 powers. Here we can see that the amount of powers generated are actually a variable number within the same mastery level. My mastery level is determining how many I can cast, NOT how many powers I end up generating.

 TheSilo wrote:
I think the only limit is that you can not cast the same power with the same psyker in one turn. So even a ML1 can cast two powers. A ML2 can cast three powers, etc. not including the force spell if they're so armed.

You are otherwise limited by your total warp charges. So you can max out spells on one psyker (using others to boost your warp charges) and next turn max out somewhere else. Either concentrating dice on important spells or casting with fewer dice and less reliability. Basically, this system introduces more choice and flexibility, and cuts out the old 'special rule on a ld test' system.

This is how I read it aswell

 extremefreak17 wrote:

Pretty clear to me. For example, a ML 2 Psycher will not always have 3 powers. If my Spiritseer rolls once on Rune of Battle, and once on Telepathy, he now has generated only 2 powers. Here we can see that the amount of powers generated are actually a variable number within the same mastery level. My mastery level is determining how many I can cast, NOT how many powers I end up generating.

This strikes me as the correct reading.

However, there's a big change here from the previous ed, which affects my GK tactics considerably.
Previously, I could pick to use either Hammerhand or Force weapons in each player turn. If I plan on charging a unit of Ork Boyz, I would pick HH. If that combat subsequently got charged by a unit of Nobz, then I would cast Force in the enemy turn. This made my unit much more adaptable.

NOW, I can only cast in my turn. And if I choose HH, I'm stuck with it for a whole game turn. This makes my unit much LESS adaptable, and therefore much less useful.

Isn't Hammerhand a blessing? So it should only last until your next psychic phase unless the rules for it says otherwise?

WrentheFaceless wrote:

 don_mondo wrote:
Point is, it's worded just vaguely enough that we cannot be sure what they meant. Would it have been so hard to say a ML1 psyker may only cast one power per turn, etc. Too bad they didn't include an example or two. Personally, I prefer your interpretation, but just cannot be sure that it is the correct one.

Its not all that vague, to perform a power, you pick the psyker who is casting it, then the limitation comes in because you've picked a psyker.

extremefreak17 wrote:

 don_mondo wrote:
Point is, it's worded just vaguely enough that we cannot be sure what they meant. Would it have been so hard to say a ML1 psyker may only cast one power per turn, etc. Too bad they didn't include an example or two. Personally, I prefer your interpretation, but just cannot be sure that it is the correct one.

Pretty clear to me. For example, a ML 2 Psycher will not always have 3 powers. If my Spiritseer rolls once on Rune of Battle, and once on Telepathy, he now has generated only 2 powers. Here we can see that the amount of powers generated are actually a variable number within the same mastery level. My mastery level is determining how many I can cast, NOT how many powers I end up generating.

"The number of psychic powers a Psyker can use each turn depends on his Mastery Level."
Well, my Master Level lets me generate Psychic powers equal to my level with a potential to have one more because it's focused.
In my opinion, I read this as I can cast all the powers I successfully have because of my Mastery Level and Focus.

Unseeablething wrote:

In my opinion, I read this as I can cast all the powers I successfully have because of my Mastery Level and Focus.

What about Psychic units, like GKSS, who are a Brotherhood of Psykers (and thus PML1), who know two set powers and do not get Psychic Focus (because one of the powers is already the Primaris)?

That's what I'm reading as well, even tho I don't particularly like it.

Unseeablething wrote:

WrentheFaceless wrote:

"The number of psychic powers a Psyker can use each turn depends on his Mastery Level."
Well, my Master Level lets me generate Psychic powers equal to my level with a potential to have one more because it's focused.
In my opinion, I read this as I can cast all the powers I successfully have because of my Mastery Level and Focus.

 Khaine's Wrath wrote:
I thought it was pretty clear...it states in bold that the number of powers a psykers can use each turned is determined by his mastery level.

The roll a model needs in order to hit something it shoots at is similarly determined by its BS value.

The thing is, without anything saying how it is determined, that statement is meaningless. You need an explanation as to how to apply that value before you get a rule that you can use.

Unseeablething wrote:

WrentheFaceless wrote:

 don_mondo wrote:
Point is, it's worded just vaguely enough that we cannot be sure what they meant. Would it have been so hard to say a ML1 psyker may only cast one power per turn, etc. Too bad they didn't include an example or two. Personally, I prefer your interpretation, but just cannot be sure that it is the correct one.

Its not all that vague, to perform a power, you pick the psyker who is casting it, then the limitation comes in because you've picked a psyker.

extremefreak17 wrote:

 don_mondo wrote:
Point is, it's worded just vaguely enough that we cannot be sure what they meant. Would it have been so hard to say a ML1 psyker may only cast one power per turn, etc. Too bad they didn't include an example or two. Personally, I prefer your interpretation, but just cannot be sure that it is the correct one.

Pretty clear to me. For example, a ML 2 Psycher will not always have 3 powers. If my Spiritseer rolls once on Rune of Battle, and once on Telepathy, he now has generated only 2 powers. Here we can see that the amount of powers generated are actually a variable number within the same mastery level. My mastery level is determining how many I can cast, NOT how many powers I end up generating.

"The number of psychic powers a Psyker can use each turn depends on his Mastery Level."
Well, my Master Level lets me generate Psychic powers equal to my level with a potential to have one more because it's focused.
In my opinion, I read this as I can cast all the powers I successfully have because of my Mastery Level and Focus.

Focus is a bonus that allows him to know more powers than his mastery level, it doesnt mean he can cast all of them, a ML 2 guy can still only cast two powers even if he knows 3 Per "The number of psychic powers a Psyker can use each turn depends on his Mastery Level."

Doesnt say anything about adding the bonus power from Focus to his mastery level.

 WrentheFaceless wrote:
Focus is a bonus that allows him to know more powers than his mastery level, it doesnt mean he can cast all of them, a ML 2 guy can still only cast two powers even if he knows 3 Per "The number of psychic powers a Psyker can use each turn depends on his Mastery Level."

Doesnt say anything about adding the bonus power from Focus to his mastery level.

It depends on your Mastery Level.
How? How does it depend on your Mastery Level? Your assumption that it is equal to his Mastery Level is exactly as correct as my assumption that you can cast your Mastery Level squared powers per turn.
Both use the exact same sentence for rules support. Prove yours is correct and mine is not.

This is getting confusing for me, so let my try to clarify so I understand

The number of powers a psyker can manifest during his psychic phase is either:

1. The same number as his mastery level, but not the same power twice (page 22, mastery level, Use in this case means manifest)

2. As many as he knows provided you have enough warp charges, but not the same power twice (page 24, no other restrictions are listet under manifesting psychic powers)

rigeld2 wrote:

 WrentheFaceless wrote:
Focus is a bonus that allows him to know more powers than his mastery level, it doesnt mean he can cast all of them, a ML 2 guy can still only cast two powers even if he knows 3 Per "The number of psychic powers a Psyker can use each turn depends on his Mastery Level."

Doesnt say anything about adding the bonus power from Focus to his mastery level.

It depends on your Mastery Level.
How? How does it depend on your Mastery Level? Your assumption that it is equal to his Mastery Level is exactly as correct as my assumption that you can cast your Mastery Level squared powers per turn.
Both use the exact same sentence for rules support. Prove yours is correct and mine is not.

As much as I'd love to cast more than my level, the way interpret it is that it is equal to his mastery level.

Point to note -it's HIWPI and my opinion of RAI. I think RAW it's incredibly ambiguous with no specific indication.

Like I said, I'd play it as limited to the mastery level. But if my opponent wanted to play it the other way, then bonus....I get to cast more! Safest option.

Being apparently ambiguous, I'd play it like Khaine.

Unseeablething wrote:

WrentheFaceless wrote:

 don_mondo wrote:
Point is, it's worded just vaguely enough that we cannot be sure what they meant. Would it have been so hard to say a ML1 psyker may only cast one power per turn, etc. Too bad they didn't include an example or two. Personally, I prefer your interpretation, but just cannot be sure that it is the correct one.

Its not all that vague, to perform a power, you pick the psyker who is casting it, then the limitation comes in because you've picked a psyker.

extremefreak17 wrote:

 don_mondo wrote:
Point is, it's worded just vaguely enough that we cannot be sure what they meant. Would it have been so hard to say a ML1 psyker may only cast one power per turn, etc. Too bad they didn't include an example or two. Personally, I prefer your interpretation, but just cannot be sure that it is the correct one.

Pretty clear to me. For example, a ML 2 Psycher will not always have 3 powers. If my Spiritseer rolls once on Rune of Battle, and once on Telepathy, he now has generated only 2 powers. Here we can see that the amount of powers generated are actually a variable number within the same mastery level. My mastery level is determining how many I can cast, NOT how many powers I end up generating.

"The number of psychic powers a Psyker can use each turn depends on his Mastery Level."
Well, my Master Level lets me generate Psychic powers equal to my level with a potential to have one more because it's focused.
In my opinion, I read this as I can cast all the powers I successfully have because of my Mastery Level and Focus.

The problem with this logic is that the Psychic Focus rule has nothing to do with mastery level. "The number of psychic powers a Psyker can use each turn depends on his Mastery Level." It does not say, "depends on how many powers he generated" or, "depends on whether he gained Psychic Focus." Does your Mastery level change when you generate an additional power due to Psychic Focus? The answer is no.

 Limbo wrote:
This is getting confusing for me, so let my try to clarify so I understand

The number of powers a psyker can manifest during his psychic phase is either:

1. The same number as his mastery level, but not the same power twice (page 22, mastery level, Use in this case means manifest)

2. As many as he knows provided you have enough warp charges, but not the same power twice (page 24, no other restrictions are listet under manifesting psychic powers)

I'd go with 1. It's a safer assumption.
One-discipline Psykers (or chaos dudes) are like Wizards from D&D 3.5 - they know more spells than they can cast.

 insaniak wrote:

 Khaine's Wrath wrote:
I thought it was pretty clear...it states in bold that the number of powers a psykers can use each turned is determined by his mastery level.

The roll a model needs in order to hit something it shoots at is similarly determined by its BS value.

The thing is, without anything saying how it is determined, that statement is meaningless. You need an explanation as to how to apply that value before you get a rule that you can use.

This is a good point. Knowing that my model is BS3, and knowing nothing else, I could interpret that to mean I need a 3+ To Hit on a D6. This is not the case, but I only know that because I am told specifically how to calculate it.

However, I think the precedent in several codices of PML1 Psyker units having set powers (and not generating any), which set powers include the Primaris Power, shows two things:
1. Units with predetermined psychic powers don't get Psychic Focus (because the FAQ had to specify that the unit knows the primaris).
2. The value of the PML {0, 1, 2, 3, 4} determines how many powers a unit may cast per turn, in a 1:1 correlation.

Psychic units, like GKSS, who are a Brotherhood of Psykers (and thus PML1), who know two set powers and do not get Psychic Focus (because one of the powers is already the Primaris). They don't know PML+1 powers, they know 2 powers and are PML1. Hemlocks don't know PML+1 powers, they know 1 power and are PML1.
Thus, you may cast as many powers as you have PMLs.

Why the BRB couldn't just have that sentence, I don't know.

 Vector Strike wrote:

 Limbo wrote:
This is getting confusing for me, so let my try to clarify so I understand

The number of powers a psyker can manifest during his psychic phase is either:

1. The same number as his mastery level, but not the same power twice (page 22, mastery level, Use in this case means manifest)

2. As many as he knows provided you have enough warp charges, but not the same power twice (page 24, no other restrictions are listet under manifesting psychic powers)

I'd go with 1. It's a safer assumption.
One-discipline Psykers (or chaos dudes) are like Wizards from D&D 3.5 - they know more spells than they can cast.

Wouldn't option 1 take away from part where you can get so many warp charges? For me, the fact that you get D6 + (army total master level) warp charges seemed to say: "You can either spend alot of charges on one spell that's really usefull right now for a higher chance of success, or you can spread your charges evenly and hope to manifest alot of powers".

More randomness..

If each of Fateweavers heads count as a Lv4 Psyker, does that mean he generates 8 warpcharges?

 grendel083 wrote:
More randomness..

If each of Fateweavers heads count as a Lv4 Psyker, does that mean he generates 8 warpcharges?

I believe the special rule says yo pick one, then generate warpcharges. not sure though.

 Elric Greywolf wrote:

Unseeablething wrote:

In my opinion, I read this as I can cast all the powers I successfully have because of my Mastery Level and Focus.

What about Psychic units, like GKSS, who are a Brotherhood of Psykers (and thus PML1), who know two set powers and do not get Psychic Focus (because one of the powers is already the Primaris)?

It's kind of roped into, they know both, why not use both.

We use to generate warp charges EVERY TURN. That means we were able to cast on an opponent's turn(sometimes) and even activate our force weapons(which are now blessings)on their turn. Now this is all done only on our turn.

I find it too weak to limit a ML1 to only one power. You already have to use extra dice to reliably get a WC1 ability off, why stop the casting at one spell.

On the other side of the fence: It makes sense you cast spells 1 for 1. It's what we're used to. Also, it would explain why psychic casting is limited per spell per unit and not per model(to discourage having one man with a lot of spells being in a group of psykers). Psychic focus could just be there for options, to get rid of the luck of the draw abilities.

 grendel083 wrote:
More randomness..

If each of Fateweavers heads count as a Lv4 Psyker, does that mean he generates 8 warpcharges?

Someone just pointed out to me the rest of Fatey's entry, which specifies that he only generates 4WC. It really burst my balloon.