Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

Lash Prince makes more sense, its less confusing, its not armed with a 'slash' and needs MoS anyway. You might as well called a Siren Daemon Prince that, but there is no need to do so, of course its a daemon, all Daemon Princes are daemons, so Siren Prince will do.
All Lash Princes are Slaanesh. You figure.

I change my vote to lash prince ^_^.

How's this for a list?

HQ:

Demon Prince, Mark of Slaanesh, Lash of Submission - 135

Same darn thing - 135

Troops:

6 Noisemarines, Blastmaster - 160

5 more of the same thing - 160 each

Elites:

Dreadnought, T/L lascannon -  115?

Heavy Support:

Defiler, extra ccw - 150

Total: 1,495

 

Basically I sit there and shoot them to bits, using the Lash of Submission to either A) advance and mess up my enemy's heavy weapons so I can get everything else or B) Repeatedly push back his assault troops until I'm ready to deal with them.

 

He can go ahead and shoot my daemon princes - 5+ invulnerable gives them statistically 6 wounds against heavy weapons fire and it'll save lots of wear and tear on my marines proper.

I can also use them to move gaunt hordes out of synapse, etc.

I don't think it's a broken list, just a very pointed one that will likely give a few players quite the annoyance until they figure out what to bring.  Clustering enemy troops together for battle cannon and blastmaster goodness - oh boy!

-Spellbound

...and they were, bigtime, and so were Eldar. Nowhere did I say the new Chaos wouldn't still be a decent army. What I said was that tournament Chaos was completely nerfed to oblivion (characters, oblits, csm squads, basilisk, daemonic possession) and that it's only reasonable they get something in return. Also I didn't claim that a psychic power "of always taken" is the best way to do it, but atleast it's something. Let's be honest, without this psychic power the new Chaos would be a tier 3 army.

Posted By Therion- on 08/06/2007 8:55 PM
Voodoo Boyz: Your metagame is borderline ridiculous already so please take a deep breath and calm down. What you're saying is "First you hide your Princes then you move them so they can see the hidden enemy Hive Tyrant then you cast the spell twice on it and then you blast it with 9 Obliterators muhahaha!". I can't see how any reasonable Zilla player would ever let you get away with something like that, not to mention you're actually boasting about maneouvring with 1050 odd points to kill a 170 point model. What you conveniently forget is that even in the highly unlikely scenario that you ever pull something like this off, you're just trading units with the Tyranid player with a 1:1 ratio or worse.

I fail to see where I'm getting over-excited.  I was merely pointing out that this power is something that will be incredibly useful, even against Nidzilla armies.

The whole idea is to set it up so you get a shot at things like Flyrants (who would normally pose a problem), and then Dakka Fex's, preferably getting the Fex's into assault with the Princes. 

Also while you're talking about the Chior, I've already had it argued with me by some players locally that a Psychic Test is not a LD test (like a morale check is different from LD tests), so the Chior doesn't prevent the power from going off.  Stupid RAW issue, but it's there.

I think the power is significant in helping Chaos players deal with Nidzilla and Nids in general, even if the Choir does help the Nid player stop the power from going off.

Psychic test like a morale test is a subset of leadership test.

Psychic test is most definately a leadership based check, and is affected by the Choir. Psychic Scream reduces your leadership for all tests by 1, and the psychic test is made using your leadership value, not your unmodified leadership value. The Choir affects morale checks, psychic tests, tests to rally and so on. You got it already argued with some local players? Ahh ok I yield.

As far as morale check is concerned, you should get your facts straight. If something affects morale checks specifically, it doesn't affect leadership checks in general, but if something simply affects leadership checks it also affects morale checks.

Page 47 40K rulebook: "Morale checks are a very specific kind of Leadership test."
Page 52 40K rulebook: "...if a Psyker rolls a 2 or a 12 when taking the Leadership test to use a psychic power..."
Page 31 Codex: Tyranids: "...suffer a -1 to all Leadership tests."

Good try though. Send my regards to your local players. They are really pro in arguing these 'stupid RAW issues'. I'm curious, do you actually read the rules before you start arguing RAW issues?

Posted By Therion- on 08/07/2007 8:17 AM
Psychic test is most definately a leadership based check ...

Culexus assassin ftw?

- Salvage

Nice, I never bothered arguing the point, only had it pointed out in conversation.

Irregardless the Lash will still be useful vs. a Nidzilla list even with the Chior, unless the entire allotment of TMC's is within that 18" bubble.

Of course. Now quick, go edit your post before anyone notices.

Posted By Therion- on 08/07/2007 8:40 AM

Nice, I never bothered arguing the point, only had it pointed out in conversation.

Of course. Now quick, go edit your post before anyone notices.

I said it was something to consider since when talking about Chior vs the Lash someone brought it up. Since I don't play Nidzilla or use Psychic powers much I just let it go. I qualified my statement in the post for exactly that reason, which is why in my post I said: "Stupid RAW issue, but it's there.

I think the power is significant in helping Chaos players deal with Nidzilla and Nids in general, even if the Choir does help the Nid player stop the power from going off. "

You want to get smug about me pointing out something I thought could be an issue, qualifying  my statement as such, and then being proven wrong and acknowledging it, then fine, be that guy. 

That doesn't change the point that Nidzilla, even with the Chior, is still going to have a hard time dealing with Chaos armies revolving around 2 Lash Princes. 

Therion, you know your numbers, but good lord you are mean spirited. Go ask someone to give you a hug.

The lash princes are going to be rediculous. And while certain units in fantasy may have immunity to magic, the ability to take dispell scrolls, etc, not all armies in 40K have similar abilities. As winterman pointed out, some armies are simply at the mercy of the power, and that is overpowering. Imagine a cron army vs this. pull one big warrior or immoprtal unit towards you, charge with both princes and then lawn-mower through the rest of the army. And if they start at their board edge like you suggest, they never participate in the game and get shot to death by heavy weapons while trying to reposition. Plus, the Princes deploy late game being HQ, so they have the chance to counter the deployment of their opponant.

Even armies with psychic defense will not be able to relibale stop this ability, baring Eldar. A hood will only stop it about once in three attempts or so, and if you have two princes, you are fairly well ensured one of them will work ever turn. Pull a large unit conga line style toward you, charge, stay locked in combat for your opponant's shooting phase then destroy the unit, and charge your turn two into his lines.

All you have to do is put two Lash Princes side by side and one of them statistically will get the power off against anyone, again baring Eldar with Runes of Warding. There is risk in that you could fail both or you may not pull the unit far enough to charge, but it is relatively minor, especially against armies with no defense. And even if you lose a prince, big deal, 150 points is a minor loss for the potential gain.

Time will tell how effective the new lists will be, and i am sure we will come up with ways to counter the lash, but at first assesment, it sounds pretty damn powerful.

spellbound: "How's this for a list?

HQ:

Demon Prince, Mark of Slaanesh, Lash of Submission - 135

Same darn thing - 135"

Nasty though the Lash Prince is, I would far rather take a Lash Sorceror, its cheaper, does the same job and cannot be targeted (except by Vindicares, Mindwwr and such like). The Lash Prince is ultimately a lascannon magnet, still very nastyy but if you want to truely max out sorcerors are the answer.

The demon princes are actually there TO be firepower magnets.  They can't be instakilled and as long as they're being shot at they're soaking heavy weapon shots that would otherwise be directed at my much squishier marines.  If they last long enough to do 2 or 3 turns of havoc against the enemy's ranks, I'll consider it time well spent.

And they work as counter-assault too!  Not much that I can't throw two I6 demon princes at and not be able to handle.

Basically those princes would "need" 12 lascannon/missle launcher shots to take down.  That's two full squads [or three squads dropped below half strength] still alive to shoot and cause damage, and my defiler and dreadnought are still alive. 

I don't know if it'll work, but it'd be fun to try it out!

-Spellbound

Posted By Spellbound on 08/07/2007 10:47 AM

Basically those princes would "need" 12 lascannon/missle launcher shots to take down ... and dreadnought [is] still alive.

I'd recommend not taking the las dread if you're in it to win it - and with 2 lash princes, you best be.  That dread freaks, you're getting 2 twin-las into the nearest thing, which is either a 20+ point-per noise marine unit, a 150+ point defiler or a lash prince ...

- Salvage

How FUN would it be to play orks against that?
"I move 6" forward."
"I push you 7" back, and shoot you."
Repeat.

FUNFUNFUN

Posted By Da Boss on 08/07/2007 11:10 AM
How FUN would it be to play orks against that?
"I move 6" forward."
"I push you 7" back, and shoot you."
Repeat.

FUNFUNFUN

"I move 180 orks 6" forward"

"I... I move two units back?"

"I move 120 orks forward and shoot 30 rokkits at your princes"

"I.... gun you down!"

"I advance with the survivors and fire 30 more rokkits at your marines"

"I...die horribly?"

"pretty much"

 

I'm not in it to win it, I'm just using what I have.  I used to go all assault, but now that the assault squads are marines with higher initiative and demons are crap, my assault has fizzled.  I had 6 squads of 6 marines with blastmasters already that I used for big games - time to dust them off and make use of them.  Also my defiler was already converted with an extra set of arms and my dreadnought is ALWAYS in my list, so bam!

But yeah, I could drop the dreadnought, lower the princes to sorcerors and put a second defiler in.  Don't feel like buying one though.

The lash idea is a gimmick and will just get metagamed out of existence.

It's just not a take-all-comers ability. It won't work against armies with craptons of units and it won't work with armies in vehicles, which encompasses about 1/2 of the game right there. Won't work reliably against marines or eldar. Woops, that's the other 1/2 of the game.

So who cares?

What size game are you playing where I can have 180 orks and 30 rokkits?

 

Having two units moved back is horrifically bad for an army that usually connects with about 30% of it's strength in turn four vs. any sort of firepower.

With the actual 18 rokkits you could expect from a 180 strong ork army, assuming you made it entirely out of sluggas or shootas, accepting that two units (6 rokkits) have been pushed back out of range, you're going to get about 4 hits on a daemon prince, 3 of which might wound, 1 of which will probably be saved. If you're sitting him in cover, hey, up them odds there.

Meanwhile, your chaos opponent will be happily exploding you with his armour and long range troops, forcing you to assault in piecemeal and die in droves.

Speed freaks of course will have no problem, but horde orks? Screwed.

The rules for the Lash aren't entirely clear, but it looks like one might be able to target enemy units in close combat. And naturally, once somebody asks the question, Gav will immediately pipe up and give an enthusiastic albeit unofficial yes. Because he is a goddam sped.

But the possibilities for abuse are both game breaking and amusing!

• Charged by my Beserkers? Fzorgle! You will be charged again next turn by my Furious Repeating Charge!
• My Oblits are stuck in combat with Scarabs? Fzorgle! Not when the Scarabs love the great taste of leaving combat to jump into dangerous terrain on the lava tables.
• I have been charged by your Slugga Boys? Fzorgle! I think you'll find they prefer to stand in a circle front of my Defiler.

And let's not forget that if normal targeting rules are superceded, you can always fzorgle independant characters out of attached units and into harm's way.

Even outside the balance issues, the lash is just a terrible idea. It adds more movement to the round, and movement is the most time-intensive aspect of game. Large units take a couple of minutes to move, particularly for players who are used to moving small units. Like Chaos players. And as mentioned before, it sanctions your opponent to put his greasy sausage fingers on your models. I don't want your Cheetos dust on my Talos, fatty, and I'm assuming the sentiment is mutual.

Oh, and I love how it forces a pinning test on top of the movement. It's like the designers weren't sure if anybody would want it. I envision the following: "All it does is move enemy units? Disgusted snort. Hey, stupid person, we're trying to get rid of the useless, fluffy wargear that so bothered everybody in the last edition. Fix it, post haste. Limpwristed dismissal accompanied by small fart."

Lastly, I vote for calling our new friend the Fzorgle Prince^TM. It sounds stupid and makes absolutely no sense, just like the Lash Of Fzorgling itself.

Probably not; it does require a target, and none of the quotes have exempted Lash from the "follows shooting rules, unless stated otherwise" requirement, which bars "shooting" at units in close combat.

Don't forget the old move of breaking up the units coherency (you, run 6-8" that way, you run 6-8" the other way, the rest of you, stay put). That will force them to move back the nex turn and keep any heavy weapons from shooting.

Posted By Phoenix on 08/07/2007 2:56 PM
Don't forget the old move of breaking up the units coherency (you, run 6-8" that way, you run 6-8" the other way, the rest of you, stay put). That will force them to move back the nex turn and keep any heavy weapons from shooting.

I see nothing exempting it from the move rule of having to end in coherency.

I am fairly sure you can't legally move your dudes out of coherency. The move from the lash whip has to be a legal move as far as I can tell from the reading of the rule.

Further, if you have 100+ orcs and they're packed in such a way as you can't move anywhere but forward, lash of submission is not going to do you a fat lot of good. You can't move through your own units, remember?

Against a massive IG gunline, you're going to run into similar issues. You'll start running into people who pack their dudes in such a way that you can't move their valuable units. E.g. put a group of conscripts surrounding your command gun squad so they can't move.

Once the tactic becomes generally used, it'll be easily overcome, since it's at best a stupid gimmick supporting an otherwise fairly weak overall army list. Depending on it is foolhardy. Because it's cheap you'll see a lot of people using it, but it doesn't help the fact that the rest of the list is sub-par compared to current tourney armies.

Then people will figure out that a 4+ invulnerable save and a move and shoot multimelta beats out a stupid gimmick that only works on 1/4th of armies, and it'll be all over for the crash of subcraption.

Longshot: I am fairly sure you can't legally move your dudes out of coherency.

Agreed, it must be a legal move.

Longshot: Against a massive IG gunline, you're going to run into similar issues. You'll start running into people who pack their dudes in such a way that you can't move their valuable units. E.g. put a group of conscripts surrounding your command gun squad so they can't move.

Sorry I smell defuiler target, but now Chaos gets to take out a squad or two with it.

Longshot: Once the tactic becomes generally used, it'll be easily overcome,.....

Your tactic of packing so tight that they all die to ordnance will not be generally used.

Longshot: since it's at best a stupid gimmick supporting an otherwise fairly weak overall army list.

Its a bad codex, and it has no character, and its imbalanced, but it is by no means weak overall. There are a lot of nasty things chaos can take and do. The list is quiite capable of exploiting the unfair advantages of the Lash.

Regarding the competitiveness and internal balance of the Codex, I think we can pretty much work backwards from the conclusions, since the conclusions are set in stone.

Phil Kelly writes Codices with great internal balance, which build very powerful lists. He's the best author they have right now, and if he wrote all their Codices the game would be in a much better place.

Jervis writes lists that are generally mediocre and include a lot of throwaway units. He has trouble with internal balance (BAs) but can somewhat mitigate it if he has long enough to work at it (DAs). He's a terrible author.

Thorpe writes mediocre lists with poor internal balance, and then adds in one or two ridiculously broken rules. After the Alaitoc Rangers list, I thought they'd have the sense to keep they guy as far away as possible, but I guess not. He's probably the worst author they have, as he combines Jervis' limitations with a penchant for random splashes of total brokenness.

I don't really know where Cavatore stands in all this. I thought he was pretty good, based on the positive reactions to the newest Fantasy rules, but if he allowed Lash of Submission past him, he's a dope.

The problem with that power isn't just that it's broken. It's that it's flexible and broken. It allows you to set up first turn charges. That's worth a ton, in and of itself. It allows you to wipe out entire units with Battle Cannon fire. That's worth a ton in and of itself. It allows you to pull a Mind War style trick and pick of single models by moving the rest to be out of LOS, so that model can be sniped. It allows you to pull units out of cover. It can be used defensively, offensively and anywhere in between.

People downplaying this rules trainwreck keep trying to mention how one particular use of it can be defeated. Great, you can defeat one angle. It's got about four more after that.

Sure, some armies can take models to defend against it (Eldar, Marines). But in order to do so, those lists now have to take Farseers with Runes of Warding, and Marines have to take Librarians. Not only does this idiot power decrease the variation in a Chaos list, it decreases the variation in OTHER lists. That's a truly powerful level of cookie cuttering. It's cookie cuttering that makes cookies out of other people's dough.

Plus, when SOME armies can defeat it, and others just get mauled by it, that's really even WORSE than if all armies get mauled by it. At least that way there's some argument that the Chaos Dex is still balanced because that tremendous power is offset by other weaknesses.

It's literally amazing to watch these idiots fumble. The last three efforts have all basically boiled down to "Marines with different HQs." They're so damn scared of messing up, they won't do much more but reduce everything to generic Marine armies. And then, when they see how dull they've made it all, they toss in a few totally broken rules.

It's like going on a date, and halfway through saying "wow, I'm sorry I've been so boring so far. Let me punch you in the throat. *smak*"

Good lord.

GOOD. LORD.

BTW, great posts Triggerbaby. You're a poet and a scholar.

Honestly, even though it looks broken, the kid in me is glad to see something that is at least innovative. (has their been anything even remotely interesting in the last 3 codex?) Now the adult in me is off to break it.

Phryxis, great post. You make other posts obsolete (at least until Longshot chimes in again).

As for Cavatore, perhaps he just doesn't grok 40k. He's always seemed to be an FB guy at heart. I don't believe he would have okayed this if he were fully conversant in the system; based on old WDs, if there was one guy in the studio who knew powergaming potential when he saw it, it was him.

Posted By Reecius on 08/07/2007 9:08 AM

Therion, you know your numbers, but good lord you are mean spirited. Go ask someone to give you a hug.

Well, as Ed Maule once famously said: "Therion's from Finland, where comp does not exist. Where he's from the trash we're forced to field for a tournament would lose to a 12 year old."