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erm...
what does exactly? the fact i dont know about the eldar gods? because seeing that two other races with the most powerful warp signature work in EXACTLY the same way, its fair to make an assumption that they do too.

If the C'Tan are "gods of the physical realm", then the Emperor can be as well. No Warp-being required. He could also be both.

Psienesis wrote:

erm...
what does exactly? the fact i dont know about the eldar gods? because seeing that two other races with the most powerful warp signature work in EXACTLY the same way, its fair to make an assumption that they do too.

If the C'Tan are "gods of the physical realm", then the Emperor can be as well. No Warp-being required. He could also be both.

but the C'tan have no control over the warp. the emperor could not be C'tan and psker at the same time. also most of the C'tan where born in stars and i think even the emperor would have atough time with that

orkoidSTD wrote:but the C'tan have no control over the warp. the emperor could not be C'tan and psker at the same time.

It wasn't suggested that he's a "C'tan", but rather that he is a god of the physical universe. He could for example be a representation of the communion between the warp and realspace. It is suggested for example that eventually all humans would be psychic like the Eldar, and the Emperor was trying to create his own webways.

There are varying levels of "godhood". The Emperor is quite clearly a unique God. He does not fit into any molds. Nor does he have to.

Also the Emperor could very well represent the warp before it was corrupted by the awakening of the first chaos god (Khorne if I recall correctly).

IronSnake wrote:There are varying levels of "godhood". The Emperor is quite clearly a unique God. He does not fit into any molds. Nor does he have to.

Why should the carriongod be unique? We know pretty well what he is, a conglomerate of human psykersouls. If he is a god at all ( which can be doubted, after all there is very little hard evidence besides imperial propaganda and the wishful thinking of those who experienced "miracles" ) and not just a halfdead human psyker which rots on top of a golden throne, then
he would be just like any other warp entity, be it daemon or god. His miracles would be achieved by manipulating the vast energies of the warp, just like the other chaosgods do.

Melissia wrote:Also the Emperor could very well represent the warp before it was corrupted by the awakening of the first chaos god (Khorne if I recall correctly).

Yes that is entirely possible too.

English Assassin wrote:
The White Dwarf article actually only states that the Emperor chastised Lorgar for wasting time worshipping him rather than getting on with the Great Crusade, not for worshipping him per se. The Emperor's character as a secular humanist was quite definitely not established before 2006's Horus Rising.

Actually the article says the Emperor "rebuked Lorgar's shows of devotion" as well as that he was "wasting precious time and resources". Seems like we're splitting hairs here. And it was not 2006's Horus Rising. 2005's Visions of Darkness says "He had long rejected claims of his own divinity", tells Lorgar to "renounce his belief the Emperor was divine", and "I am no god, and have no desire for the multitudes to see me as one". So we know that by the time Sabertooth had begun publishing their Horus Heresy card game (2003), the idea of a divinity refusing Emperor was in existence. This only further reinforces the idea that 2002's article existed in a timeline that had already determined the same. At the very best, these projects were occurring simultaneously and the Acts of Faith slipped by as a continuity checking error, but the more probable response comes back to "GW didn't care that it made no sense". After all, Codex Witch Hunters was just a collection of rules for models that already existed, GW had no real intention of actually bothering with, but needed rules for the radically different 3rd Edition system.

You continue to see an error where none needs to exist. The Acts of Faith have never been explicitly stated to be the product of some sort of divine power, and I have never seen them this way, not since the very first day I held the Codex in my hands.

Acts of Faith work either as a psychic phenomenon controlled by the Emperor Himself or simply as a "mind over matter" kind of deal resulting out of the Sisters' uniquely altruistic devotion to their cause. What it is exactly remains open for interpretation, but I fail to see why you would try to denounce them as a "continuity error".

Especially since this "continuity error" already existed since the Chapter Approved list before the Witch Hunter Codex and proves pretty consistent, what with also having founds its way into the 5E Minidex.

If the Sisters' Acts of Faith were truly about "divine intervention", then their success would hardly depend on their personal morale, would it? They would simply happen.

[EDIT: Lynata edited and added whilst I was typing, so this post doesn't follow that one too well now, and with repetition. I'll let it stand as is though, to avoid further confusion.]

Someone mentioned this timeline inconsistency in another thread the other day but I wasn't a member then.

Don't forget that the first time that AoF were officially presented for TT use wasn't CWH but was the 2001 Chapter Approved [the best version of SoB of all for my money]... IIRC it was new to that book and not first printed in WD, but if it was in WD before then that takes the AoF idea further back in time.

Can't get to my 2001 Chapter Approved at the moment, but if anyone can get to theirs then that might shed some light on how AoF work, from their description. I remember WD articles at the time describing how Sisters could literally rend ceramite apart with their bare hands and such, such was the power of their faith - this isn't some martial artist punching through bricks or lucky hits finding weak spots in armour: the articles were totally categorical about this.

And again, re the Lorgar thing: There is no inconsistency. What the Emperor may have wanted pre being not-quite-killed is irrelevant to the metaphysical 'realities' that resulted from that act.

Plan A: Religion sub-optimal, don't want to be worshipped, there is a better way.

Big E struck down, half the SM Legions rebelling and massively empowering Chaos, Webway plan wrecked... rats!:-

Plan B: Of what's left now that the Space Marines have had their fun... religion is the best remaining option... worship me folks... sigh....

Your refusal to admit the error does not mean one does not exist.

Your "interpretation" of the Acts of Faith is novel, but doesn't fly. The Acts of Faith very specifically represent divine intervention alone in many instances. There is no way to "believe" better luck, or accuracy, or whatever, lol. How do you believe in Rending for the weapons of the Retributors? How do you believe the ability to re-roll wounds? You don't. Your weapons either do damage or they don't. You either know how to shoot, or you don't. Really believing you know how to shoot won't make you better, lol. And what does it have to do with morale? In the 5th codex, you roll a die to generate Faith Points, and you roll a die with bonuses to make them work.

"Guided by the will of the Emperor, the Retributors' shots shatter their enemies armor with ease." That's fairly explicit, but even the most die hard arguer of semantics has to admit that somehow, their "faith" conjures up the ability for their ammunition to have a higher capacity for damage, something that cannot be "believed" and cannot reasonably attributed to luck.

From Codex: Witch Hunters" "Acts of Faith are a manifestation of the Emperor's divine purpose"

b: (2) : a perceptible, outward, or visible expression d : an occult phenomenon It really doesn't get much more explicit than that.

Your refusal to acknowledge it simply represents a willingness to hand wave, but your explanations come up short in every department when it comes to some kind of fluff congruous rationalization. You're willing to hand wave things a bit more, because otherwise exists the necessity for denouncing a very core concept of your chosen army. However, your refusal to acknowledge does not equate to the absence of said language and inference.


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tsz52 wrote:Don't forget that the first time that AoF were officially presented for TT use wasn't CWH but was the 2001 Chapter Approved [the best version of SoB of all for my money]... IIRC it was new to that book and not first printed in WD, but if it was in WD before then that takes the AoF idea further back in time.

This is irrelevant though. Whether or not the Acts of Faith predated the decision to run with an "Emperor hated being worshiped as a god", they continued to exist after it, thus becoming incongruous with the fluff. Even if it made sense in Chapter Approved, it was no longer sensible in Codex: Witch Hunters, and certainly not in the latest WD Codex. Further reinforcing the "GW doesn't care if it makes sense or not" explanation over all others.

Veteran Sergeant wrote:How do you believe in Rending for the weapons of the Retributors?

THe same way I believe rending for snipers. The bolts somehow manage to hit critical areas in armor.

Veteran Sergeant wrote:How do you believe the ability to re-roll wounds?

Because it represents the abstract concept of an increased likelihood of causing a debilitating wound.

Veteran Sergeant wrote:Your weapons either do damage or they don't.

False. One can cause a wound that is insufficient to incapacitate the enemy, for example. The enemy is bloodied but unbroken and still attacking. This is why space marines have increased toughness.

Veteran Sergeant wrote:You either know how to shoot, or you don't.

False. This directly contradicts differing ballistics skills scores.

Veteran Sergeant wrote:Really believing you know how to shoot won't make you better

Confidence can help calm one's aim. compared to nervousness.

Veteran Sergeant wrote:And what does it have to do with morale?

See the codices prior to fifth edition. If you're going to be pulling things from multiple editions, actually read said editions.

Veteran Sergeant wrote:"Guided by the will of the Emperor, the Retributors' shots shatter their enemies armor with ease." That's fairly explicit, but even the most die hard arguer of semantics has to admit that somehow, their "faith" conjures up the ability for their ammunition to have a higher capacity for damage, something that cannot be "believed" and cannot reasonably attributed to luck.

Why not? It could just be interpreted as that being THEIR belief on what happened.

Codices aren't neutral sources of information.

Veteran Sergeant wrote:From Codex: Witch Hunters" "Acts of Faith are a manifestation of the Emperor's divine purpose"

That is what the Sisters and the Imperium believes yes. I doubt non-Imperials believe it.

Veteran Sergeant: Sorry man but the Lorgar thing you're referring to is in relation to pre-/during-HH events.

My point is that the HH (and particularly the Emperor being struck down) flicked a cosmic metaphysical switch; it's effectively two separate universes with a demarkation at that point, so what the Emperor wanted before that (within that previous metaphysical reality) and what he was lumbered with in terms of least-worst evil/making the best of a bad job (within that new metaphysical reality) are as a result of different realities. So there's no inconsistency.

You're stood on the mid-point of a bridge going East-West and profoundly desire to go East and tell everybody that. Space Marines irrevocably destroy the bridge's Eastern half... so you're only left with sub-optimal, arduous, horrible West as an option, however much you might hate and resent that path.

It's not inconsistency but a changed reality that you have to adapt to... there's no 'yebbut you said that East was better' if there's no longer an Eastern half and only a Western one.

Lorgar was pre-bridge-trashing; Imperial Cult/Creed and AoF etc are post-bridge-trashing.

OK, Euphrati Keeler's on the cusp of both realities but I'll get into that later... and try to explain my model a bit better.

Veteran Sergeant wrote:How do you believe in Rending for the weapons of the Retributors?

This line of reasoning and arguing is so much beside the point its painfull to read. Background is not always tied into rules, and as rules are they completely miss the point of the discussion. The origin of the Being we are discussing is not in the rules, so why use them as an argument? its like saying that Jesus couldn't exist because he would have to roll a 13+ on 2d6. come on people.

As for the rest of the duscussion its really interesting to see peoples reactions. As for the whole "sisters are ignorant psykers" theory i ask you this: do they really have to be the cause of their own miracles? If the emperor does have some kind of power over them would it not be plausible for them simply having some kind of link to his divinity and thereby producing miracles?

Simply blowing it all off-track by saying its Malal, Tzeentch or some other reason is pretty pointless. we know the cult of the emperor would easily be able to conjure some kind of effects simply by existing, so why does it have to be a chaos god, or even one of the big ones? im myself a chaos fanboy but i cant say im taken to the idea that their the cause of everything thats mysterious or unexplained. wouldn´t that be boring?

Melissia wrote: The bolts somehow manage to hit critical areas in armor.

How?

Because it represents the abstract concept of an increased likelihood of causing a debilitating wound.

How?

Veteran Sergeant wrote:Your weapons either do damage or they don't.

False. One can cause a wound that is insufficient to incapacitate the enemy, for example. The enemy is bloodied but unbroken and still attacking. This is why space marines have increased toughness.

Your answer does not address the question posed.

Veteran Sergeant wrote:You either know how to shoot, or you don't.

False. This directly contradicts differing ballistics skills scores.

Your answer does not address the question posed.

Veteran Sergeant wrote:Really believing you know how to shoot won't make you better

Confidence can help calm one's aim. compared to nervousness.

But it isn't confidence in ability, it's confidence in some kind of divine assistance. Ask the jihadis in Iraq how well "Insha'Allah" worked for them I was a weapons trainer in the military, both at the primary and advanced levels. The biggest problem cases we had came from people who were convinced they knew how to shoot. You either do, or you don't. Believing that God will help you shoot won't make you a better shooter, no matter how good you think you are.

Veteran Sergeant wrote:And what does it have to do with morale?

See the codices prior to fifth edition. If you're going to be pulling things from multiple editions, actually read said editions.

I've already shown I can quote and source every edition of the Codex. You cannot use an old edition to disprove the most recent one.

Veteran Sergeant wrote:"Guided by the will of the Emperor, the Retributors' shots shatter their enemies armor with ease." That's fairly explicit, but even the most die hard arguer of semantics has to admit that somehow, their "faith" conjures up the ability for their ammunition to have a higher capacity for damage, something that cannot be "believed" and cannot reasonably attributed to luck.

Why not? It could just be interpreted as that being THEIR belief on what happened.

But it DID happen. That's what you're missing. Somehow, the intended effect happened. Again, I come back to the question you cannot answer: How?

Veteran Sergeant wrote:From Codex: Witch Hunters" "Acts of Faith are a manifestation of the Emperor's divine purpose"

That is what the Sisters and the Imperium believes yes. I doubt non-Imperials believe it.

Again, it comes back to the fact that no matter how anyone in-universe believes it, it does happen. It isn't a matter of interpretation. It's entirely irrelevant what the Sisters or anybody else thinks happened. It does happen. Again: How?


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tarnish wrote:

Veteran Sergeant wrote:How do you believe in Rending for the weapons of the Retributors?

This line of reasoning and arguing is so much beside the point its painfull to read. Background is not always tied into rules, and as rules are they completely miss the point of the discussion.

Then don't argue it's possible in the fluff. I certainly wasn't. Others are arguing that, pay attention. I originally said in very plain terms, the rules exist because Games Workshop doesn't care that they don't make sense. Try to get on the same page as the rest of us before you talk about what is, or isn't painful to read. You know what is painful to read? You walking into the middle of this argument, lost like Donny from The Big Lebowski.

Melissia wrote:

orkoidSTD wrote:but the C'tan have no control over the warp. the emperor could not be C'tan and psker at the same time.

It wasn't suggested that he's a "C'tan", but rather that he is a god of the physical universe. He could for example be a representation of the communion between the warp and realspace. It is suggested for example that eventually all humans would be psychic like the Eldar, and the Emperor was trying to create his own webways.

The chaos gods are in effect trapped by the imaterium and are basically created by the swirling emotions of the warp. The C`tan are more accurately free floating space born entities that feed off of stars. They were unable to interact with the physical world without the intervention of the necrontyr who gave them physical bodies at which point they became immensely powerful and in effect gods. The ork gods gork and mork are again similar to the chaos gods, but instead of being a collection of emotions they are representations of the ork psyche and thus have a more distinct form and character. Finally, the eldar gods existed both in the warp and outside of it. The avatar of khain is basically using one of the broken shads of the eldar war god and an host to allow him to become real / whole again.

Remember in the 40K setting the term god is very loose. There are many things that are attributed the name god, but all of them can be killed (even the chaos gods, its just trickier) and have their own properties. The emperor of mankind fits the definition of god pretty well actually. far better than the eldar gods or the c`tan.

Regarding acts of faith.
Could it be possible that although the sisters are clearly not psychic, their uniformity of will makes them as a whole partially psychic. Think of it like tyranid synapse or how multiple psychers getting together exponentially increases their power. A normal human has an effect on the warp, it is small but an effect none the less. Now most humans are chaotic, they have a mass of conflicting and constantly fluctuating emotions. However, the sisters are all focused and believing the very same thing. An example would be that while a troop of guardsmen might claim the emperor protects, some will doubt, some will be full of fear of death, some will be angry and a whole bunch of other emotions. However when sisters say that, they believe it 100%, each and every one of them without wavering.

As such, perhaps they create a miniature shadow of the warp. This would explain why they seem to be protected by an anti-psycher bubble while not being pariahs or blanks as the tyranid shadow of the warp also strongly disrupts psycher abilities. Additionally, it would explain how they manage to pull off what are effectively very very minor powers.Also the way that it does not always work could be because their faith at any given point is not strong enough, not uniform enough to manifest this minor bubble.

One problem with the theory that the miracles are really just perceived miracles and basically luck is that luck does not act like an anti-psycher shield. Given that no psychic powers work on them, even beneficial ones, would imply that something else is effectively protecting them. Still the luck theory is a good one.

The Emperor actually was a warp entity before He was reborn. If you remember His origins, thousands of shamans committed mass suicide to fuse their souls in the warp. This is the 'God-Emperor', who was then born into a Human body, becoming the 'Emperor'. IMO, ever since He was confined to the Throne, He has become partially the 'God-Emperor' again, although this isn't what He originally planned.

In any case, 40k gods are gods in the traditional sense; they're not omnipotent like God, but are gods - embodiments or focuses of power/emotions in reality (C'tan), the warp (Chaos Powers), or both (the Emperor). Only in the Emperor's case, He's the embodiment of all the shamans' power, both sum and product.

Veteran Sergeant: Your arguing the nature of miracles as if the details make them plausible. i cant even begin to say whats wrong with your logic but surely i would be wasting my time when your reply to my input is phrased like this. Out of the discussion, continue to drag it down if you will.

Veteran Sergeant wrote:Your refusal to admit the error does not mean one does not exist.

Neither does your refusal to admit that there does not have to be an error automatically mean there is one.

Veteran Sergeant wrote:How do you believe in Rending for the weapons of the Retributors? How do you believe the ability to re-roll wounds? You don't. Your weapons either do damage or they don't.

I've already gone over this. Since you did not respond to my earlier explanations I'm going to assume you either did not see that reply or ignored it on purpose. Doesn't change that it remains a matter of interpretation, though - a weapon's accuracy, which directly affects the level of damage, is affected by the user. And especially in melee, "rerolling wounds" means nothing other than a bonus to the ferocity of the attack. I bet I can find you Marine and maybe even Guard units who have similar rules.

Veteran Sergeant wrote:And what does it have to do with morale? In the 5th codex, you roll a die to generate Faith Points, and you roll a die with bonuses to make them work.

And the "bonuses to make them work" clearly depend on squad morale. They are directly affected by friendly losses as well as the presence of inspiring leaders. How does that even make sense when you're suggesthing stuff like that would come from a Chaos god?

Veteran Sergeant wrote:"Guided by the will of the Emperor, the Retributors' shots shatter their enemies armor with ease." That's fairly explicit, but even the most die hard arguer of semantics has to admit that somehow, their "faith" conjures up the ability for their ammunition to have a higher capacity for damage, something that cannot be "believed" and cannot reasonably attributed to luck.

This is how it looks to the untrained eye, which is obviously why many people in the setting describe it as miraculous. Analyzing it, however, we see that this effect merely means "+Rending", which can just as well be interpreted by the Sister abandoning personal safety and firing discipline by stepping out in the open and unleashing a hail of shells resulting in more rounds hitting the target than during a normal attack. A long shot, but still more reasonable than the alternative. And something we have seen in a lot of action movies, mind you.

Veteran Sergeant wrote:From Codex: Witch Hunters" "Acts of Faith are a manifestation of the Emperor's divine purpose"

And the Emperor's "divine purpose" is the Imperial Creed, the cause the Sisters have pledged their lives to. This is hardly supernatural, it's plain old fanaticism.

Veteran Sergeant wrote:Your refusal to acknowledge it simply represents a willingness to hand wave [...]

Yup, because "hand waving" is necessary in 40k in a lot of departments, for a lot of armies. I enjoy finding reasonable "excuses" for studio fluff rather than ripping it apart, for if we'd do the latter, you wouldn't be left with much of a setting - technology would stop making sense, Marines would stop making sense, the entire way the Imperium works would stop making sense. But I like things making sense, so I make things fit. And it's not very hard to do, even without going against what had been written before.

SylvanaSekNadin wrote:

Melissia wrote:

orkoidSTD wrote:but the C'tan have no control over the warp. the emperor could not be C'tan and psker at the same time.

It wasn't suggested that he's a "C'tan", but rather that he is a god of the physical universe. He could for example be a representation of the communion between the warp and realspace. It is suggested for example that eventually all humans would be psychic like the Eldar, and the Emperor was trying to create his own webways.

The chaos gods are in effect trapped by the imaterium and are basically created by the swirling emotions of the warp. The C`tan are more accurately free floating space born entities that feed off of stars. They were unable to interact with the physical world without the intervention of the necrontyr who gave them physical bodies at which point they became immensely powerful and in effect gods. The ork gods gork and mork are again similar to the chaos gods, but instead of being a collection of emotions they are representations of the ork psyche and thus have a more distinct form and character. Finally, the eldar gods existed both in the warp and outside of it. The avatar of khain is basically using one of the broken shads of the eldar war god and an host to allow him to become real / whole again.

Remember in the 40K setting the term god is very loose. There are many things that are attributed the name god, but all of them can be killed (even the chaos gods, its just trickier) and have their own properties. The emperor of mankind fits the definition of god pretty well actually. far better than the eldar gods or the c`tan.

im pretty sure the c'tan have a good deal of interaction with the physical world, otherwise how would they contact the necrontyr? the eldar gods cannot exist outside of the warp, this is proven when khaine is driven into the material world, which then shatters him into a thousand pieces. i see no real difference for the orks n the chaos gods, allthough as you say, the ork physce is very different to most races so their gods are different.

Veteran Sergeant wrote:How?

Skill, usually. C:WH states that Sisters have a martial art which combines prayer and martial prowess that allows them to accomplish feats which are miraculous to the unschooled. Why, then, is it so surprising that prayer helps them increase their skill?

The answer is that it is not actually that surprising.

Veteran Sergeant wrote:Your answer does not address the question posed.

Keep telling yourself that, it's cute.

Veteran Sergeant wrote:Your answer does not address the question posed.

Keep telling yourself that, it's cute.

Veteran Sergeant wrote:But it isn't confidence in ability, it's confidence in some kind of divine assistance.

The effect is the same in 40k.

Keep in midn that Sisters ARE good at shooting. Base shooting skill for a Sister starts at Space Marine level and goes up from there.

Veteran Sergeant wrote:You either do, or you don't.

Yeah, you still don't know what the hell you're talking about. Just because someone knows how to shoot doesn't mean they're as good at it as someone else.

Veteran Sergeant wrote:I've already shown I can quote and source every edition of the Codex.

Too bad you haven't actually bothered to read them then.

Veteran Sergeant wrote:it does happen. It isn't a matter of interpretation. It's entirely irrelevant what the Sisters or anybody else thinks happened. It does happen. Again: How?

I already explained several potential theories. That you are unwilling to read or think for yourself doesn't bother me.



I doubt we're ever going to agree ont his, VS. You aren't apparently willing to accept even the possibility that there is a way to logically come to any other conclusion, which even I'm willing to do...

The Emperor is a psyker with god-like powers whose warp presence is extremely powerful. Acts of Faith, if powered by the Emperor, would then be basically warp powers.

...which is a logic problem, because you occasionally encounter fluff that suggests or states that miracles and faith-based powers are not warp-based at all, so for this to be true there would need to be some other, new 'force' in 40k, completely distinct from real physics and the warp.

So what we have here is the writers just not agreeing and/or working themselves into yet another corner. It's another one of those situations where there's temptation in some to say "well, it's canon, so for it to make sense in my head I'm going to build arguments around it, logic be damned".

Intelligent and careful speculation is the more fun approach.

Ronin-Sage wrote:you occasionally encounter fluff that suggests or states that miracles and faith-based powers are not warp-based at all

Not "occasionally".

"Consistently" and "always" are the accurate terms here.

Aye, it's all a matter of interpretations. There is little difference between said writers and us gamers - the people of both groups have their own opinions and preferences, and given the way the franchise is run everybody is free to pursue his own vision. This only becomes a problem when the fans treat any product with the 40k label like some kind of bible and expect consistency between the various works, as I once did.

For example, looking at the Blood of Martyrs book from FFG, its Faith Talents are indeed so powerful and clearly supernatural that one cannot possibly argue them away as being "just" a product of the Sisters' training and dedication (i.e. the "mind over matter" concept) - and this was one of the criticisms voiced by the players, too: that it wasn't as "vague" as the Acts of Faith in the WH Codex anymore.

There's just so many ways to tackle this, it all boils down to the individual perspective on the setting, influenced by both personal preferences as well as what kind of material one has read before. And this goes for all of 40k ... imagine the disappointment you'd have if your first contact with the Space Marines was the Deathwatch RPG or various BL Marine novels, and then you go and play them in GW's Inquisitor game or look at their fluff in the studio material, or the few novels that actually paint them in a less invincible way. Not to mention the TT itself.

Lynata, the "acts of faith aren't psychic powers" is consistent across all editions and not contradicted by other lore. Probably one of the only pieces of lore that can say that.

Comes with Sisters not having much lore to begin with no doubt.

Well, I do not recall having read a studio source that outright states that AoF are specifically and clearly not psychic - only that the Shield of Faith works against psychic powes, and not even reliably. If one would wish to interpret this in such a manner, the approach that the Emperor is just too powerful a psyker, or that the Sisters' faith "attunes" themselves to Him (more reasonable, as this would take their morale into account), it would be a viable theory not violating the fluff.

Not that I'm suggesting this. I like the mind-over-matter idea more and personally believe that it does make more sense. Just saying there's room for speculation and personal preference, 's all.

Yo pienso que it is a combination of the Emperor, and the minimal, passive psychic essence of humans, giving physical shape by the faith of the sisters.

Lynata wrote:Well, I do not recall having read a studio source that outright states that AoF are specifically and clearly not psychic

Aside from every single source that mentioned acts of faith anyway.

Lynata wrote:Well, I do not recall having read a studio source that outright states that AoF are specifically and clearly not psychic

If you are going to argue on a fluff issue, at least read the fluff, and not your own version of it.

By i think what your intending to say that there's no room for the extraordinary simply happening out of supposed nothing without some established power behind it that been defined in detail.
Is this because its a scifi setting that you feel has no room for faith actually being real or is it more a question of not being able to accept something merely because its origin is vaguely portrayed? Certainly not every facet of reality needs to conform to documented material to be possible? But if that's the case then we might just not have been told the full story and that bothers the crap out of you guys.

Tarnish: I don't think that folks are bothered by not being told the full story; it's that open-ness and hints and ambiguity in the setting that is appealing for those who like to tell their own stories, rather than be dictated to (as Lynata's already stated a few times).

Good fodder for your own narratives, debate, intellectual exercise and craic. Sometimes it is a bit more important to have a solid theory for how these things work, though, like if you're writing a tale and want to respect the lore/fans, or if it's important from an RPG PoV or something (or you're just very logically minded, and attempting to suspend disbelief).

If it's for debate purposes then the best theory/model (for that purpose) is the one that accounts for the maximum number of described phenomena - ideally all of them, across all sources. That's why I favour the attuned/resonant energy transfer model, with Emprah-pawaa being distinct in nature since it doesn't have the chaotic attributes of the Warp, nor (under extreme examination) any 'foul warp-stench'.

Maybe it's a different frequency of something broadly similar to the warp (which empirically exists in the setting), or Trek-particle of the week, or the methods of use and examination alter the perceived result (like the photon particle/wave slit experiments). It also accounts for different types of receivers (psykers, Untouchables, not properly attuned Sisters) not being able to channel that energy, and the occasional non-Sister but righteous and pious humie being able to tap into that power in dire straits, when doing His good work.

Again, this accounts for the few but notable upper-end miracles described, though most AoF are most likely Lynata's model, and the divide between both will be fuzzy.