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In case anyone was curious, the 7-man Pathfinder squad in question here - max drones and rail rifles - actually costs 190 points or 270 if you're counting the Devilfish. Under optimal circumstances, which we'll say include having BS 5 due to markerlight support and being within rapid fire range of the rail rifles, the unit dishes out a total of 6.39 dead MEQs per turn, plus another 0.5 or so for the Devilfish's drones. We'll be nice and call it 7 marines total, per turn.

Since the tactical versatility of pathfinders has been cited as a reason why this squad is awesome, let's compare them first with Kroot, which can also infiltrate/outflank. 190 points of Kroot rapid-firing **without markerlights** will kill just over 5 marines per turn, on average. With BS 5, that number increases to almost 8.5. Those numbers skew even more in favor of the Kroot when wimpier targets are considered. Note that Kroot are also far more resilient by virtue of having 24 more wounds to whittle down than the Pathfinders, and they also are scoring. Furthermore, they don't take up a precious Fast Attack (i.e., markerlight) force org spot.

Sure, that Kroot unit doesn't do much against vehicles, but swap in some Krootoxes if you're really that concerned about your troops having some anti-armor, for whatever reason. The two units are roughly comparable against monstrous creatures (T6/3+ target), putting out ~2 wounds without markerlights and ~3 with them.

If you factor in the extra 14 Kroot you could get for the price of a Devilfish, things look worse still for the Pathfinders. Basically, I see no reason whatsoever to use Pathfinders this way. They're awesome support units, so use them for what they're good at.

 Scipio Africanus wrote:

Coyote81 wrote:

 Jancoran wrote:

The build is 181 points (I think?).

So really when you're dishing out that kinda hurt... Vs T4:
I do 1.77 wounds with the Recon Drone
I do 4.16 wounds with the Railrifles
I do 4.44 wounds with the Carbines
I do 2.81 wounds with the Devilfish+Drones (if you wanna count it)

Against T3, its just...naughty.

What's kind of math are you using?

1. You think or you know it is 181. It doesn't matter what you think

2. I don't care how many wounds you cause, I care how many they don't save. 13 wounds is about 4 dead marines. 48 points from a squad you THINK is 181.

4 of those wounds are AP1 so that'll be 7 dead marines actually.

Rail rifles will put out 2.78, since you have to at least assume a 5+ save from cover. With the carbines and drones getting another 2.07 past armor. Only 4.85 dead marines.

Unless I'm being silly and not assuming every unit can get 4 marker tokens to support them.

Another thing that pathfinders have going for them is that they can take a recon drone, so if you have any other reserves in your army then you can vector them on top of your pathfinders and get a reasonably large secondary force behind your opponent.

Of course, this might not be the best idea in the world, but it sure is fun.

Math Hammer away friends.

As for yesterdays festivities, here are a few Pathfinder hi-lites for you.

1st Game, vs dual Storm Raven list with Dual Baal Predators and Dual Fragiosos:

I misunderstood him when speaking about the Storm Ravens and had the impression that he had dudes in hem. Because of the error, I lost 7-6 by firing at the wrong target in the ending round. However, BECAUSE of the Pathfinder threat (after all, I have two of them), he literally conceded most of the field to me and even retreated most of his stuff away from me. He simply could not win if he walked into that. So he sent his Storm Ravens ALONE to try and win it for him. He got lucky there and did just enough, but you should have seen the battlefield. At games end, we LITERALLY had taken over each others deployment zones and it took every shot he had to get the lat two points he needed. Close game, but it was most definitely the Pathfinders he feared. He had two units that could have pushed on me, and he just begged off as the game was too close to risk anything unarmored.

The impact of those two units was pretty impressive there. They ended up KILLING his Fragioso, which the Kroot would not have done. They also killed an entire squad of Marines and a Drop pod! DarkStrider never even got out of his devilfish for this game until the last round when I got out to take side potshots at a Baal Predator, but that was just to try and tie it up and he managed tyo avoid that with FOUR cover saves! It was, needless to say, very close.

His MVP was the Fragiosi which in one fell swoop anihilated my commander and his drone swarm. He made a really ballsy drop and it paid off in round 1.

Second game.
I fought a Dark Angels player with two very tough Land Raiders. You dont see people taking advantage of those very often but they can take a pummelling.

In this game, a single Pathfinder squad killed a Whirlwind, a Tactical squad and a devastator squad plus 1 Terminator. Here again, DarkStrider never even got out of his Devilfish. this game was over MUCH more decisively. I ended up tabling him. The Pathfinders outflanked and caught the whirlwind by surprise. He fired down on me, but I was in ruins and able to take cover, minimal damage. I then popped the Dev squad while the kroot launched shots into the tactical marines, killing a few. Near the end, the Pathfinders finished all of the 7 remaining marines. Total kills was 13 marines and a Whirlwind for the one unit, plus then one stray terminator (who was all that was left from the Crisis Teams and other shooting). Excellent production and here again the htreat of a second unit of Pathfindeers was enough to keep him surging in the opposite direction and into the Riptides.

Game 3:
I played NidZilla. VERY typical Psyker build.

In this game DarkStrider was much more important. The Pathfinders killed two Gaunt units, and a Tervigon.

The second unit outflanked on the opposite side and killed the Warloird Hive Tyrant after it got grounded by another unit. and finished a Devilgaunt unit and its drop pod.

Both units got roughed up more in this game than they did in any other, from Biovore fire and from gaunt shooting. Nonetheless, very effective and they didn't die.

So just a little report on yesterdays tourney results. Pretty fun.

In this game, a single Pathfinder squad killed a Whirlwind, a Tactical squad and a devastator squad plus 1 Terminator.

They ended up KILLING his Fragioso, which the Kroot would not have done. They also killed an entire squad of Marines and a Drop pod!

The Pathfinders killed two Gaunt units, and a Tervigon.
The second unit outflanked on the opposite side and killed the Warloird Hive Tyrant after it got grounded by another unit. and finished a Devilgaunt unit and its drop pod.

This makes me believe that at least one of several things is going on: 1) you have the most ridiculous luck ever, 2) your opponent just kind of left your pathfinders alone for some reason to do as they please, 3) these accounts are embellished, and/or 4) the people you play against have absolutely no idea what they're doing. These are guardsmen we're talking about, T3 bodies with a 5+ save. They pack a bit of a punch, no doubt, but they're still 7 squishy wounds - 10 with drones. Cover or not, those guys are going to be eating some firepower once they're near threat range. Models that expensive and that fragile are AWESOME targets for, well, everything. I count 4 turns of shooting to get that many marine kills in game 2. There's not a chance in hell your Pathfinders could survive that long if someone actually bothered to pay them any attention. Let's not forget that you could only realistically hurt the Furioso from the rear, so basic Kroot could, indeed, have done that with or without Krootox support.

However, BECAUSE of the Pathfinder threat (after all, I have two of them), he literally conceded most of the field to me and even retreated most of his stuff away from me. He simply could not win if he walked into that.

This makes me think that 4) above is at least part of this equation. Your opponent is aware that Storm Ravens have 12 armor, and that the best your "Pathfinder threat" can muster is a glance against them, right? I don't really see anything else in your army that would draw small and medium arms target priority unless the Kroot were around and your opponent identified them as the bigger problem. I suppose that would be true, but 1 wound takes a heck of a lot more out of the Pathfinders than it would the Kroot.

By the way, I forgot to mention my newfound love for Piranhas. I use them mostly to block movement, but having highly mobile meltaguns never hurt anyone. Sure, they die in a stiff breeze, but if you've disembarked the drones (which you probably should do ASAP), that doesn't really matter. That's one extra turn that high-strength firepower isn't directed at something more killy. Having an extra horde control unit in the drones is nifty, too. I've thought about saving the 10 points per model and keeping the burst cannons around, but I'm not sure that's a good plan. It's nice to be able to hold up high AV targets AND have a chance of killing them while you block them.

MilkmanAl wrote:
This makes me believe that at least one of several things is going on: 1) you have the most ridiculous luck ever, 2) your opponent just kind of left your pathfinders alone for some reason to do as they please, 3) these accounts are embellished, and/or 4) the people you play against have absolutely no idea what they're doing. These are guardsmen we're talking about, T3 bodies with a 5+ save. They pack a bit of a punch, no doubt, but they're still 7 squishy wounds - 10 with drones. Cover or not, those guys are going to be eating some firepower once they're near threat range. Models that expensive and that fragile are AWESOME targets for, well, everything. I count 4 turns of shooting to get that many marine kills in game 2. There's not a chance in hell your Pathfinders could survive that long if someone actually bothered to pay them any attention. Let's not forget that you could only realistically hurt the Furioso from the rear, so basic Kroot could, indeed, have done that with or without Krootox support.

I'll go with options 1,2,3 and 4 alex for 500.

Joking aside, I completely agree. Even a 10man assault marine unit shooting will inflict some serious damage on pathfinders. I just don't see any of this happening within reason.

I was wondering about the possibility of using Piranha as well. Giving them burst cannons, keeping drones, and giving them the ability to overwatch just so one or two Piranha could offer a little firesupport and blocking for some units. At 50 ppm they're not too much of an investment to throw away and they're fast enough to get where they need to go quickly. Dropping off the drones also lets them block for two different units so it's not a bad idea and even offers a small unit a commander can jump into for extra wounds if he runs out of drones.

Being able to shoot at fliers with BS better than 1 without skyfire, penalty-free interceptor fire with your highest firepower units, Av13 vehicles that get a 4+ cover save out in the open, ignoring cover saves, ignoring night fighting, army-wide overwatch, being able to give units gets hot, a special character that pushes the auto-win button against imperial guard...

... I don't know. You tell me what shines...

Coyote81 wrote:

I'll go with options 1,2,3 and 4 alex for 500.

Joking aside, I completely agree. Even a 10man assault marine unit shooting will inflict some serious damage on pathfinders. I just don't see any of this happening within reason.

I was very confused for a second because my name is Alex.

Savageconvoy wrote:I was wondering about the possibility of using Piranha as well. Giving them burst cannons, keeping drones, and giving them the ability to overwatch just so one or two Piranha could offer a little firesupport and blocking for some units. At 50 ppm they're not too much of an investment to throw away and they're fast enough to get where they need to go quickly. Dropping off the drones also lets them block for two different units so it's not a bad idea and even offers a small unit a commander can jump into for extra wounds if he runs out of drones.

Actually, that's not a bad plan at all if you're using them to block close to home. They put out a pretty decent amount of firepower for the cost, and an extra round of overwatch sure does sound nice.

MilkmanAl wrote:

This makes me believe that at least one of several things is going on: 1) you have the most ridiculous luck ever, 2) your opponent just kind of left your pathfinders alone for some reason to do as they please, 3) these accounts are embellished, and/or 4) the people you play against have absolutely no idea what they're doing. These are guardsmen we're talking about, T3 bodies with a 5+ save. They pack a bit of a punch, no doubt, but they're still 7 squishy wounds - 10 with drones. Cover or not, those guys are going to be eating some firepower once they're near threat range. Models that expensive and that fragile are AWESOME targets for, well, everything. I count 4 turns of shooting to get that many marine kills in game 2. There's not a chance in hell your Pathfinders could survive that long if someone actually bothered to pay them any attention. Let's not forget that you could only realistically hurt the Furioso from the rear, so basic Kroot could, indeed, have done that with or without Krootox support.

However, BECAUSE of the Pathfinder threat (after all, I have two of them), he literally conceded most of the field to me and even retreated most of his stuff away from me. He simply could not win if he walked into that.

This makes me think that 4) above is at least part of this equation. Your opponent is aware that Storm Ravens have 12 armor, and that the best your "Pathfinder threat" can muster is a glance against them, right? I don't really see anything else in your army that would draw small and medium arms target priority unless the Kroot were around and your opponent identified them as the bigger problem. I suppose that would be true, but 1 wound takes a heck of a lot more out of the Pathfinders than it would the Kroot.

By the way, I forgot to mention my newfound love for Piranhas. I use them mostly to block movement, but having highly mobile meltaguns never hurt anyone. Sure, they die in a stiff breeze, but if you've disembarked the drones (which you probably should do ASAP), that doesn't really matter. That's one extra turn that high-strength firepower isn't directed at something more killy. Having an extra horde control unit in the drones is nifty, too. I've thought about saving the 10 points per model and keeping the burst cannons around, but I'm not sure that's a good plan. It's nice to be able to hold up high AV targets AND have a chance of killing them while you block them.

I love posts like this. In game 1 I was playing an army that had 12-24" range essentially. And you wonder why he was a little concerned? Not enough time in the day to tell you how stupid it is to TRY to intimate that the opponent is the problem so nuff said there. Weakest sauce ever.

I'm telling you what happened. Not what could have. Argue all you like. Play me and you won't be saying that. If you dont wanna use Pathfinders like this, dont. The one thing I never said is that you have to use them like this to win. You don't.

Doubt those 10pts are worth it since drone can fire overwatch anyways, since they are treated like passengers for overwatch purposes. Therefore they can overwatch for their vehicle.

And you wonder why he was a little concerned?

Yeah, I do. The Pathfinders aren't really that big of a threat, and I don't see Stormravens being terribly afraid of your army. One round of shooting from the raven alone is probably enough to take out half your Pathfinders, even if they're in cover. The whole squad might even go down if the raven has hurricane bolters. Even if your opponent didn't want to hide in the Stormraven and you got the jump on him, you'd probably take a chunk out of a squad and then die horribly in return. I'm not sure what the panic was about. I don't tend to worry about losing 2/3 of a basic troops choice to a 190/270 point unit I can easily wipe off the board the next turn with at most 2 squads' worth of shooting.

Doubt those 10pts are worth it since drone can fire overwatch anyways, since they are treated like passengers for overwatch purposes. Therefore they can overwatch for their vehicle.

Oh, interesting. I guess that's not worth it, then.

The storm Ravens...as i said... WERE the only thing that wasn't overly concerned with what I had left. So I...SAID that explicitly.

And it isn't as if Pathfinders were his main target at games end. He needed POINTS at the end. His VERY last salvo, thanks to Machine Spirit, ganked a lone Crisis suit hiding way over yonder which gave him a tie and finally killed three kroot for the game winning point. It was THAT close to a loss for him. He just happened to roll like a champ and i rolled like a not-champ. But even then has DarkStriders unit killed that Baal, we would be tied and then it would be up to the Kroot to down the bird (didn't, but hey).

Point here is real simple: Pathfinders are a great offensive weapon and I hope some imaginative sorts will look into their potential outside of being markerlight caddies.

And if they dont...ok!

 Jancoran wrote:
The storm Ravens...as i said... WERE the only thing that wasn't overly concerned with what I had left. So I...SAID that explicitly.

And it isn't as if Pathfinders were his main target at games end. He needed POINTS at the end. His VERY last salvo, thanks to Machine Spirit, ganked a lone Crisis suit hiding way over yonder which gave him a tie and finally killed three kroot for the game winning point. It was THAT close to a loss for him. He just happened to roll like a champ and i rolled like a not-champ. But even then has DarkStriders unit killed that Baal, we would be tied and then it would be up to the Kroot to down the bird (didn't, but hey).

Point here is real simple: Pathfinders are a great offensive weapon and I hope some imaginative sorts will look into their potential outside of being markerlight caddies.

And if they dont...ok!

I think your missing his point, a great offensive weapon is something that will dish out great offense, and not just disappear at the drop of a hat. T3 5+ saves will never been considered great offensive weapons, even if you gave them all lascannons. The points cost for that unit is just way too high for how not tough it is.

Darkstrider
7x pathfinders 3x railrifle emp
recon drone
grav inhibitor drone
pulse accelerator drone
Devilfish dpod
385pts
and a 2nd unit without darkstrider

your taking about almost 700pts of your armor in 23 effective T3 5+ saves is giving your opponenets problems? Most games they won't have all that much to shoot at, because this is almost half your army. Throw in another 170pts for some markerlgith (since you always assume your units are BS5, you need two a sniper squad to go with each of these teams)

900pts! Are you seriously going to tell me This is 900 points of amazing offense? If you going to tell me that, I'm going to tell you that you can fly as well, and should go test that theory.

 Jancoran wrote:
Math Hammer away friends.

As for yesterdays festivities, here are a few Pathfinder hi-lites for you.

This argument for your pathfinder team is a fallacy

I don't care about experiences. Just because a unit of LD7 pathfinders lost all but one man and he held on insane heroism to markerlight or shoot a vital target, doesn't mean I expect my 1 man pathfinder to do so again.

Tactics in 40k is a bit of statistics and a bit of shenanigans. Sometimes, deployment and movement are important tactics. Everything else we can't measure.

I don't care how you feel your pathfinders went in your game. I care how they will work statistically.

Now, kroot can do a few kills, but I mostly treat them as cannon fodder or to score. The fact that in my last game,13 kroot received a charge from 20 gants and killed all of them does not mean I will throw 13 kroot at gants again.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 A Town Called Malus wrote:


4 of those wounds are AP1 so that'll be 7 dead marines actually.

This makes such a difference, 84 points.

And when those three boltguns (I'll assume they're boltguns cause I'm a nice guy) shoot and hit 4 times, wounding 3 and killing three... 20ish point pathfinders? Then causing a leadership check which the tem has a... 41% chance of failing?

Yeah. LD7 fails 41% of the time.

Oh, and we won't mention that the squad will then kill its glorious prize of 36 points, totalling up to a max of 150 for its 181 point price tag.




Automatically Appended Next Post:

MilkmanAl wrote:


By the way, I forgot to mention my newfound love for Piranhas. I use them mostly to block movement, but having highly mobile meltaguns never hurt anyone. Sure, they die in a stiff breeze, but if you've disembarked the drones (which you probably should do ASAP), that doesn't really matter. That's one extra turn that high-strength firepower isn't directed at something more killy. Having an extra horde control unit in the drones is nifty, too. I've thought about saving the 10 points per model and keeping the burst cannons around, but I'm not sure that's a good plan. It's nice to be able to hold up high AV targets AND have a chance of killing them while you block them.

Piranhas can actually be a great distraction I'm finding. They can keep up with my riptide and my suits, as well as detach harrier drones (I call them at because they annoy my opponents flank, and can charge and tie up a unit like Long Fangs, Devastators or even simple tactical marines.)

I'd also point out that piranhas have 8 shots for 40 points - 4 of which are twin linked. - 5 of them are 40 shots, 20 TL. even without ML they kill 5 marines, with BS5 ML they kill 8. They're AV11 otf which means they don't get harmed by most small arms, and they get a junk save of 5+ - better than an AS of 5+.

Did I mention they don't need an HQ and a transport to make them good?


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Jancoran wrote:
The storm Ravens...as i said... WERE the only thing that wasn't overly concerned with what I had left. So I...SAID that explicitly.

And it isn't as if Pathfinders were his main target at games end. He needed POINTS at the end. His VERY last salvo, thanks to Machine Spirit, ganked a lone Crisis suit hiding way over yonder which gave him a tie and finally killed three kroot for the game winning point. It was THAT close to a loss for him. He just happened to roll like a champ and i rolled like a not-champ. But even then has DarkStriders unit killed that Baal, we would be tied and then it would be up to the Kroot to down the bird (didn't, but hey).

Point here is real simple: Pathfinders are a great offensive weapon and I hope some imaginative sorts will look into their potential outside of being markerlight caddies.

And if they dont...ok!

I appreciate what you're trying to say here. It's good that you're trying to break out from the norm.

If Pathfinders were troops, I'd have no choice but to agree with you. 6 S6AP1 shots from a troop choice? even at BS3 that's a dead terminator a turn. But Tau can do a dead terminator squad a turn with a riptide, and the riptide can take a greater hit.

You can lie to people if you want to about the efficacy of these units. Andit is a lie. They have been a major factor in 24 out of 24 games. That is a statistic I will trust. You dont have to. Just dont lie and say it didn't happen.

Why do you always do that? You get so defensive when people tell you that statistically speaking your unit is bogus and you think we are somehow lying to people. You got it. We're all Space Marine players trying to cover up this super deathstar unit that only you have ever been able to master because if others start using it then we will have no hope of winning. You got us.

Coyote points out a huge flaw in your unit. 650 points are dedicated to two very flimsy units that in turn also need support units. Here's an idea, bring two riptides with EWO and FNP and SAVE 200 points!!!! That's a third Riptide. You also bring two units in the FA section. That leaves very few units available to support.

Its not 650 points. So that is a lie or just a gross exxageration. Neither one is awesome.

Second, it works. So saying otherwise is...not...true. The ones hell bent on trying to prove otherwise are crusading, not I. I've said repeatedly to you that I dont think you have to use them to win. Thats not defensive. That's being disgusted in your defeatism,

I literally do not understand people who argue with repeatable success. I really do not. In my work life if I have an employee who expressed themselves this way, they'd just be fired. I just dont have time for people who are defeatists or who will talk as if with authority about something they honestly haven't even done.

I also don't like people who lie to make a point. I've shared accurate numbers and I have shared accurate success. I have not added to the facts at all here. The unit puts out a lot of wounds, and it is never usually where it can ever be assaulted. It can only be torrented (which is true of all units) and that, only if the weapons are in range to do it.

Then you argue as if the Devilfish is part of the unit instead of an additional unit taken with it. that devilfish puts out 8 STR 5 shots on its own, and is a great bulwark. It allows Pathfinders and even on occassion, damaged kroot units, to scooot where needed. But it is not required for the unit to do what I am suggesting. Stop adding its cost into the units cost analysis. Its not the same unit. Its a liers game to say it is. They dont live together and they dont die together.

Look GOOD FAITH discussion isn't happening here when people do these things. And that IS too bad. Because it isn't as if I have said that you are WRONG about the units you like. I agree that most of them are good. They just aren't the only option. And you wantthem to be seen that way here REAL BAD for some wierd sense of validation you really just dont need.

Its silly.

It's 622 for the two units, that's not a gross exaggeration from 650. Nor was it a lie, just a miscalculation. *

It's not repeatable. How many times do people have to point out how weak the unit is for its points value? You keep saying that they have a huge threat range, but there is no reason to be afraid of the unit. Unless you're dedicating 4 markers on the unit every turn, they just don't put out a lot of reliable wounds if you look at the actual math including saves. You give out the numbers you like an assumed BS5 for every unit you propose and then give the wounds. I repeatedly give out the expected saves which shows the unit just isn't that devastating for as expensive as they are.

There are also a decent amount of Ap5 weapons that ignore cover, not just torrents. Even just bolters and heavy bolters are good at putting lots of wounds on the unit. It's not "only torrent" weapons that are a threat.

I'm not even going to argue about the devilfish. It's an 80 point terrain that you're using to support the unit but somehow it doesn't factor to the units cost.

*I had to do the math again, and apparently I was right the first time.

7 pathfinders with emp and 3 rail rifles are 136.
All three drones are 58 points, making the unit 194 points per squad.
Throw in a devilfish with no upgrades it's now 274 per squad.
Two units of those are 548 points.
Darkstrider is another 100 on top of that for 648 points total.
2 points off is a gross exaggeration?

Jancoran. The problem with your anecdotal evidence and the reason that others are criticizing your set-up is that you always come into the Tau/Pathfinder threads and yell loudly about your unit and how great it is.

40k is a game of dice, thus statistics can be used to measure efficiency (of course this is not foolproof due to certain special rules or abilities that cannot be quantified). Your unit is horribly inefficient compared to other units in the book. I don't care that you use the unit and it works for you. Good players can sometimes make lackluster units and army lists work because they are better at the more intangible parts of the game. If you are going to recommend a unit to others, you've got to do better than tell us (in poorly summed up Battle Reports, no less) about your experiences. I want to see a side-by-side comparison of how Pathfinders with all of the bells and whistles you add, are a better choice than say HYMP Broadsides, Piranha squadrons, MSU flashlight squads, etc. Even in the role you use them for (seems to be outflanking harassment), large Kroot squads will generally be more efficient. They may not have quite as much versatility (though arguably they do, due to the availability of Krootox), but they are far cheaper, score and can be taken in larger squads.

As others have mentioned, over and over again, your Pathfinder units are extremely pricey for how fragile they are. I don't know how much 6th edition you've been playing, but in my own experiences players pack much higher volumes of anti-infantry firepower. I would NEVER invest heavy points into a platform as fragile as Pathfinders. Elite/expensive/small infantry squads are not nearly as good in 6th as they were in 5th. Barrage/torrent flamers and Tau players will all destroy these units with ease.

As a Tau player myself, I would LOVE to play against an opponent silly enough to allocate that many points to Pathfinders. With the EWO being as cheap as it is and the upgrade being available to a lot of models, it is very conceivable that this entire strategy will be useless vs. other Tau players. A single Riptide with SMS and EWO can cause an immediate morale check upon arriving from reserves.

You may very well have sustained success with the unit as is (though I too am skeptical of personal accounts that seem to good to be true), but you may also be a better player than most. This isn't a unit I would recommend to anyone new to the codex as it will require much more finesse than most of the other good options (and there are a ton).

Anyway, back on topic.

I've been playing Tau fairly extensively. The units i've been most impressed by and why:

Ethereal - Incredibly valuable force multiplication at a discount price. Giving up a VP isnt the worst if he is slain (and mine rarely dies), place him in a big squad and enjoy the incredible LD buffs.

Support Commander - I personally use the Puretide chip, which is every bit as amazing as it seems. I also take the Multi-spectrum so that I can easily wipe out 4+ saves (pretty useful due to increase in Fire Warriors/Dire Avengers and the ubiquitous Necron Warrior). Stick this badass with 3 Broadsides, a full smattering of Drones and some Target Locks. Make sure to bring some KY for your opponents.

Riptide - Low damage output for the cost, but in 6th durability is incredibly important. This guy will tank shots and often attract firepower from the rest of your army due to their reputation. The caveat is that they really need twin-linking or markerlights in order to live up to their potential. I like the HBC/SMS set up as well as the Ion/Fusion. I generally take one of each with some interceptor for outflanking Kroot, etc.

Kroot - They aren't amazing in a vacuum, but so far I prefer them over Fire Warriors. Per body, they are cheaper and due to increased numbers of shots they make better use of Markerlight/Psychic buffs.

Broadsides - I use the HYMP/SMS. I think the HRR isn't particularly good. Str.7 en masse will make short work of anything AV13 or lower. They shine due to their ability to threaten just about every army. Xenos quiver at the thought of facing 36+ SMS shots. With a support Commander they can easily take out 2-3 vehicles a turn. The dawn of the Eldar codex increases their usefulness as these squads will absolutely devastate Mechdar (I can take out about 3 Serpents a turn with a fully decked out Broadside squad, assuming average rolls).

Piranha - Cheap for the amount of firepower they can bring to bear. I prefer running them as potent anti-infantry platforms that can block movement.

Sky Ray - The only reason I don't take 3 squads of Broadsides. They make it much easier to ignore over-priced Skyfire upgrades on most of your suits. 1-2 Markerlight hits on a Flyer will easily allow a Broadside squad to take it down. Same with Riptides. Being able to alpha-strike MCs with the 6 missiles is always nice as well. I would generally recommend 1-2 of these as they are quite versatile and give you the ability to put your Markers on a more durable platform. They also mesh well with suits and Riptides as they saturate the targets your opponent will have to point his Str.8+ at.

Obviously there are other good units out there, but those are, IMO, the standouts of the codex. I think in a few months, once the codex has had time to settle, you'll see armies comprised of most of the above winning the big events. The Tau army that won Killadelphia (east coast GT, highly competitive attendees) was comprised of only: Kroot, Ethereals, Riptides, Skyrays and 8 Pathfinders.

Jancoran wrote:You can lie to people if you want to about the efficacy of these units. Andit is a lie. They have been a major factor in 24 out of 24 games. That is a statistic I will trust. You dont have to. Just dont lie and say it didn't happen.

Calling me a Liar is both piling criticism and an example of personal incredulity.

Your statistic of "have been a major factor in 24 out of 24 games" is a Texas sharpshooter.

Point is, your unit is not as powerful as you want it to be. Mixing WOF from 3 rail rifles and a few S5AP5 shots is not great. It's just that you're refusing to see that it isn't.

I seriously suggest you try a unit of pirhanas. Sure the models are expensive, all told, but 5 pirhanas is about 200 points without upgrades or Fusion Blasters - two of them are 400. If each of them has just 2 markerlights to work with, they can kill 8 3+ saves a turn. They're also a lot more resilient than your 5+ armour save, having AV11 otf and a jink save.

Jancoran wrote:Its not 650 points. So that is a lie or just a gross exxageration. Neither one is awesome.

You're... you're calling an estimate an exaggeration?

Didn't you "estimate" your unit was 181? Isn't that a gross understatement?

jancoran wrote:
Second, it works. So saying otherwise is...not...true. The ones hell bent on trying to prove otherwise are crusading, not I. I've said repeatedly to you that I dont think you have to use them to win. Thats not defensive. That's being disgusted in your defeatism,

You are crusading for a unit that can be shown using realistic statistics to be ineffective. I have shown you an alternative and am yet to see you adress it. Try running 2 or three units of 5 pirhanas with just burst cannons. 15 vehicles on the field is very annoying and causes a lot of distraction for your opponent.

jancoran wrote:
I literally do not understand people who argue with repeatable success. I really do not. In my work life if I have an employee who expressed themselves this way, they'd just be fired. I just dont have time for people who are defeatists or who will talk as if with authority about something they honestly haven't even done.

Repeated success is still an anecdote. Statistical success is all I care about, it's much more tangible than "this one guy killed 3 tanks and a terminator."

jancoran wrote:
I also don't like people who lie to make a point. I've shared accurate numbers and I have shared accurate success. I have not added to the facts at all here. The unit puts out a lot of wounds, and it is never usually where it can ever be assaulted. It can only be torrented (which is true of all units) and that, only if the weapons are in range to do it.

you see how you keep calling us liars? This is becoming a personal attack. You're not arguing, you're avoiding argument by attacking and criticising your opponents. Calling your statistics and reports into question is not being a liar, it's questioning your truthfulness.

jancoran wrote:
Then you argue as if the Devilfish is part of the unit instead of an additional unit taken with it. that devilfish puts out 8 STR 5 shots on its own, and is a great bulwark. It allows Pathfinders and even on occassion, damaged kroot units, to scooot where needed. But it is not required for the unit to do what I am suggesting. Stop adding its cost into the units cost analysis. Its not the same unit. Its a liers game to say it is. They dont live together and they dont die together.

Okay, so if we remove the incredibly overcosted devilfish from the equation, the one you covered in seeker missiles then relied upon for your example, what're we left with?

jancoran wrote:
Look GOOD FAITH discussion isn't happening here when people do these things. And that IS too bad. Because it isn't as if I have said that you are WRONG about the units you like. I agree that most of them are good. They just aren't the only option. And you wantthem to be seen that way here REAL BAD for some wierd sense of validation you really just dont need.

It's not that we see that these are the only options. We just can't fathom that pathfinders are a decent offensive option. If you refuse to accept that, that's your business. You are talking about a weak, non-scoring, overcosted unit with small arms fire. Pathfinders are like razorbacks. They get shiny options but they're best used stock standard.

jancoran wrote:
Its silly.

No, it's not silly.

I'll take this edit to note that Using Fallacies is not in and of itself what makes these arguments wrong. To simply say "that's fallacious" and disregard your argument would be a fallacy of its own. The fact that you use these fallacious arguments to make your point, however - your only point - I might add, is how your arguments come to be unsound because of their fallacious nature.

Scipio you are too good at naming fallacy for it to be healthy...

 LValx wrote:


Riptide - Low damage output for the cost, but in 6th durability is incredibly important. This guy will tank shots and often attract firepower from the rest of your army due to their reputation. The caveat is that they really need twin-linking or markerlights in order to live up to their potential. I like the HBC/SMS set up as well as the Ion/Fusion. I generally take one of each with some interceptor for outflanking Kroot, etc.

I really can't see the Riptide having low damage output. I never run the HBC since it seems almost like you're forced to nova charge just to get a decent amount of damage output. In my area I only see the IA getting any use and it's been racking up quite reputation, but we also see more deepstriking terminators in my area than most.

BoomWolf wrote:Scipio you are too good at naming fallacy for it to be healthy...

I do love me a good fallace(y)

Savageconvoy wrote:

 LValx wrote:


Riptide - Low damage output for the cost, but in 6th durability is incredibly important. This guy will tank shots and often attract firepower from the rest of your army due to their reputation. The caveat is that they really need twin-linking or markerlights in order to live up to their potential. I like the HBC/SMS set up as well as the Ion/Fusion. I generally take one of each with some interceptor for outflanking Kroot, etc.

I really can't see the Riptide having low damage output. I never run the HBC since it seems almost like you're forced to nova charge just to get a decent amount of damage output. In my area I only see the IA getting any use and it's been racking up quite reputation, but we also see more deepstriking terminators in my area than most.

I would regard the riptide as having a low damage output.
To think of the HBC in good terms, think of it as 3 Assault cannons with a range of 36" - that's what it is. (Assault cannon is 24" S6 AP4 Heavy 4, rending. This is 36" S6 AP4 Heavy 4*3 Rending with gets hot!) Make it BS6 and you have a 33% chance of hitting 11 times, and a 2.7% chance of getting hot!. You also rend almost two times. an HBC is best used against either flyers (where its S6 rending can take down flyers if you get lucky) or against medium infantry (sv3+ or worse) - 11 hits is 10 wounds is about 4.5 dead space marines. (much better than a pathfinder for resilience sake.)

I agree with the main point. The riptide is very durable, especially with a stimulant. It's only fear is combat, so if it lacks drones it should be taken with a VRT so as to avoid Close Combat.

I can't make myself run a kroot gunline. For the same reason I can't make myself take more than 1 riptide. It just feels wrong. I will admit that it is a valid strategy though.

I can't help but run multiples of units because I love redundancy. My 2k list is basically two 1k lists slapped together.

I've also felt that I'm forced to run a couple units of sniper kroot on my backfield because of the love of FMC and MC in my area. Having some sniper units can really some of the bite out of those. I do prefer them over Firewarriors, just because of their versatility for a wider range of threats.

Riptides can hurt but in a vacuum they atent as damaging per point as suits. But they are mobile and durable, which make up for generally lower damage.

dementedwombat wrote:I can't make myself run a kroot gunline. For the same reason I can't make myself take more than 1 riptide. It just feels wrong. I will admit that it is a valid strategy though.

I can't see more than 1 riptide being all that useful.
1 riptide makes your opponent make a choice. at 2k, they can pour half their firepower into it and probably kill it, or they can ignore it - giving it free reign - and just hope it doesn't do too much damage.

What's kroot gunline? 120 snipers?

I'd personally run 39 kroot snipers - 3 squads of 13, with an extra hound each. This way they can act as the sniper team, killing something like a wraithknight first turn, or they can deploy off-board and harry my opponent's flank as normal kroot/objective grabbers.

Something to consider?

Savageconvoy wrote:I can't help but run multiples of units because I love redundancy. My 2k list is basically two 1k lists slapped together.

I've also felt that I'm forced to run a couple units of sniper kroot on my backfield because of the love of FMC and MC in my area. Having some sniper units can really some of the bite out of those. I do prefer them over Firewarriors, just because of their versatility for a wider range of threats.

I maintain that Fire warriors are the best GI type infantry in the game. They have the most versatile small arms fire (Rifles) in the game which makes up for their complete lack of heavy/specialist weaponry.

That said, IF I weren't running teams of Eldar bikes as my objective pinchers, Kroot are a must.

LValx wrote:Riptides can hurt but in a vacuum they atent as damaging per point as suits. But they are mobile and durable, which make up for generally lower damage.

Exactly.

That said, IF I weren't running teams of Eldar bikes as my objective pinchers, Kroot are a must.

Speaking of which, It looks to me like a Farseer with at least 1 Jetbike squad is almost an auto-take now. Twin-linking 2 units per turn (Guide, Prescience) and adding a fast objective grabber with reasonable firepower for the cost for 160ish points is pretty awesome. If nothing else, it'll save you using a boatload of markerlights on your Riptides to avoid Gets Hot! rolls. I think I'll still take Kroot in large quantities, though. I really like forcing my opponent to choose whether to divert some of his forces to deal with the Kroot units or to keep heading towards me to take on the core of the army.