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Most of the already been touched on. But as a person who doesn't play tau but plays against it. The things that pop out to me are salvosides(missile broadsides), kroot, ethereals, buff commanders, riptide, and skyrays.

 Savageconvoy wrote:
You have a real bad habit of magically upgrading units without changing the point cost.
BS2 drone gets 4 shots, 1.33 hits, .88 wounds, .296 failed saves.
BS3 pathfinder gets 2 shots, 1 hit, .66 wounds, .22 failed saves.
BS3 rail rifle gets 1 shot, .5 hits, .42 wounds, .28 failed wounds.
Dronex1 gets .296 failed saves
Pathfindersx4 get .88 failed saves
Rail riflesx3 get .84 failed saves.

All without any use of markerlights.

Why would you bother saying that? They will have Markerlights.

And they can't benefit from their own Markerlights. So something else would have to light up the target to improve the expected failed saves.

obviously. yes.

I hate turning this kind of thread which should have nothing to do with list hammering really, into a list discussion.

But as a reminder, the list I have (not in front of me, but this is damn close:

3 FirsightMarksmen + 3 Sniper Drones

2x 10 FW

2 x 10 Kroot+6 hounds+ 3 Krootox

2 x Riptides

3 Crisis suits (TL Melta + Flamer)

utility Commander

Aun'Va

Marker Drone Swarm

2 x 7 Pathfinders (all three Drones, 3 x Rail Rifles).

cowmonaut wrote:
And they can't benefit from their own Markerlights. So something else would have to light up the target to improve the expected failed saves.

And that's where the Firesight Marksmen and Sniper Drones previously mentioned come into play. BS5 Markerlights and Sniper rifles ready and waiting to light up that target and possibly add another couple of wounds.

In regards to his maths, I would assume he is within 15" of the target (as the Recon Drone only has an 18" range gun anyway so you're almost there to begin with) and therefore rapid firing with the Rail Rifles, so it would be 6 shots, not 3.

Correct, a Town called Malus

Whats your justification for more than one kroot hound?

they are weaker than before and only really good for acute senses, and the additional bodies only hurt the unit by increasing 25% moral limit.

i would figure leaving 1 hound and back filling extra kroot would be better as extra shooting
(though i love that i can make nice numbers blocks of 75 for 10 sniper kroot + 1 hound and a 100pts for +krootox)

but krootoxs are awesome. just got 2 more the other day.

My justification is that they allow turn 1 charges. other threads cover this pretty well. But basically you need more than one because of attrition, to pull it off and string the hounds out.

 Jancoran wrote:
My justification is that they allow turn 1 charges. other threads cover this pretty well. But basically you need more than one because of attrition, to pull it off and string the hounds out.

Wait. please link that thread, because its generally impossible to get a turn 1 charge.

you cant infiltrate then charge and you cant outflank and charge and if you deploy normally, you will be more that 24 inchs away meaning your hounds will move 12" maybe get box cars on the charge but you will be more than that close enough every time. (Eternal War missions,a player's deployment zone is defined as anywhere in their own table half that is more than 12" from the central line brb pg 121)

the only way its possible is if your opponent infiltrates close to you or if they scout move. edit: also your opponent getting first turn and moving close to you but that is entirely dependent on your opponent or your playing some kinda other game type/house missions that will allow you to.

Edit: additional edit, with a 3" pile in pretty much only your kroot hounds will fight while the rest of your models will slowly close the gap leading to less attacks for you and more attacks for your opponent. additionally with a krootox you cant fire it first then charge as it is rapid fire so the addition kinda hurts the overall unit if it needed to charge.

 Jancoran wrote:

Why would you bother saying that? They will have Markerlights.

Well, I said that because you were somehow getting numbers higher by a significant amount even though you said

All without really any use of Markerlights. but if you;r desperate, oneof the two units can certainly use a Markerlight or two to help out.

Meaning that you weren't using markerlights in your original numbers, which are still off.
If the rail rifles are at half range,
6 shots, 3 hits, 2.5 wounds, 1.67 failed saves. Still well off of the 4.16 quoted. At BS5 6 shots, 5 hits, 4.16 wounds, 2.78 failed saves assuming 5+ cover.
You're only getting the 4.16 if you're using 4 markerlights.
4 pathfinders, get 8 shots, 6.67 hits, 4.44 wounds, 1.48 failed saves.
recon drone gets 4 shots, 2.67 hits, 1.78 wounds, .59 failed saves.
Total for 2 markerlights: 4.85 MEQ wounds for the cost of 194 points, or 40 points per wound.
The math is also really off when you don't factor in saves, which are a huge factor involved since the standard 3+ save cuts the wounds down to a 1/3 of the original wounds rolled.

 Desubot wrote:

Wait. please link that thread, because its generally impossible to get a turn 1 charge.

you cant infiltrate then charge and you cant outflank and charge and if you deploy normally, you will be more that 24 inchs away meaning your hounds will move 12" maybe get box cars on the charge but you will be more than that close enough every time. (Eternal War missions,a player's deployment zone is defined as anywhere in their own table half that is more than 12" from the central line brb pg 121)

the only way its possible is if your opponent infiltrates close to you or if they scout move. edit: also your opponent getting first turn and moving close to you but that is entirely dependent on your opponent or your playing some kinda other game type/house missions that will allow you to.

Edit: additional edit, with a 3" pile in pretty much only your kroot hounds will fight while the rest of your models will slowly close the gap leading to less attacks for you and more attacks for your opponent. additionally with a krootox you cant fire it first then charge as it is rapid fire so the addition kinda hurts the overall unit if it needed to charge.

There are way too many provisos in here so let me just clarify things for those reading:

If you go in the second player turn... You can charge. Hounds are BEASTS. You're infiltrating 18" away. So. yes. Having more hounds most definitely helps allow you to make that charge and the pile in for the enemy generally happens first, THEN the Kroot. So your hounds will allow an average of 19" threat, plus the 6" of pileines that should hlp a lot more of the Kroot get in there.

Nw notice...please please notice... that I did not ever say you must do this every game to win, nor that you WOULD WANT to do it EVERY game. What I said was: it allows it.

Im not really interested in another big discussion on whether someone THINKS it's useful enough. I was just answering the question on why I have more than one.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Savageconvoy wrote:


The math is also really off when you don't factor in saves, which are a huge factor involved since the standard 3+ save cuts the wounds down to a 1/3 of the original wounds rolled.

They're not off. And I already told you I wasn't factoring saves. That wasn't information I excluded, was it? And if you look again, i modified the original post to SAY I was using Markerlights JUST so it would be clear to anyone who..somehow...doubted they WOULD be used in a TAU army. Lol.

 Jancoran wrote:
obviously. yes.

I hate turning this kind of thread which should have nothing to do with list hammering really, into a list discussion.

But as a reminder, the list I have (not in front of me, but this is damn close:

3 FirsightMarksmen + 3 Sniper Drones

2x 10 FW

2 x 10 Kroot+6 hounds+ 3 Krootox

2 x Riptides

3 Crisis suits (TL Melta + Flamer)

utility Commander

Aun'Va

Marker Drone Swarm

2 x 7 Pathfinders (all three Drones, 3 x Rail Rifles).

I know you claim to have a ton of success with it, but this is pretty close to a dream list...for your opponent. Substitute some Vespids for the Riptides, and you'd be all set!

I know Broadsides are crazy expensive, but I've had a fairly incredible amount of success with them. They can torrent down just about everything they're actually capable of hurting without too much problem. I also have a soft spot for ionheads (pie plate! woo!) and am developing a warm, fuzzy feeling towards Skyrays. Those skyfire markerlights are pretty darn awesome, and even though you can't rely on them for anti-tank duty throughout the game, you can at least pop a couple light vehicles or 1 heavier target before they become markerlight and SMS platforms.

I'm sorry that I didn't assume every model is BS5 without it being mentioned. I'm sorry that when you said it was done without markers, that I didn't assume you used markers.

Regardless, you're proposing a 190 point unit that is very fragile and needs another support unit to boost it. Your math initially gives the impression that it's getting over 13 wounds without support, then prompted you mention that you gave them two markerlights, which is a huge modifier. When you factor in the saves on top of that, it gives a more truthful image of how damaging this 190 point unit is. The actual damage output with no support is 2.87 unsaved wounds, with support it becomes 4.85 against standard marines. Compare that to a much more survivable suit squad with dual plasma, which can pump out 3.33 unsaved wounds against MEQ at half range without any support while being 38 points cheaper. Doing the math it would take about 30 bolter shots to take down the entire pathfinder unit, while it takes 18 bolters to take down one crisis suit.

 A Town Called Malus wrote:

cowmonaut wrote:
And they can't benefit from their own Markerlights. So something else would have to light up the target to improve the expected failed saves.

And that's where the Firesight Marksmen and Sniper Drones previously mentioned come into play. BS5 Markerlights and Sniper rifles ready and waiting to light up that target and possibly add another couple of wounds.

I was slowed for a bit there apparently. I honestly have no idea why I mistook what Jancoran said for something other than he meant, which is damned obvious looking at it again. No duh there will be markerlight tokens on what you are shooting at...

Sometimes I wonder if I'm actually losing my mind


Kroot Hounds are alright. They're relatively inexpensive, make okay ablative wounds, and do allow you to charge things you wouldn't normally be able to reach if you play it right. I wouldn't use first turn charges as a basis on why to take them though, given you can't guarantee you won't have the first player turn.

 Jancoran wrote:

 Desubot wrote:

Wait. please link that thread, because its generally impossible to get a turn 1 charge.

you cant infiltrate then charge and you cant outflank and charge and if you deploy normally, you will be more that 24 inchs away meaning your hounds will move 12" maybe get box cars on the charge but you will be more than that close enough every time. (Eternal War missions,a player's deployment zone is defined as anywhere in their own table half that is more than 12" from the central line brb pg 121)

the only way its possible is if your opponent infiltrates close to you or if they scout move. edit: also your opponent getting first turn and moving close to you but that is entirely dependent on your opponent or your playing some kinda other game type/house missions that will allow you to.

Edit: additional edit, with a 3" pile in pretty much only your kroot hounds will fight while the rest of your models will slowly close the gap leading to less attacks for you and more attacks for your opponent. additionally with a krootox you cant fire it first then charge as it is rapid fire so the addition kinda hurts the overall unit if it needed to charge.

There are way too many provisos in here so let me just clarify things for those reading:

If you go in the second player turn... You can charge. Hounds are BEASTS. You're infiltrating 18" away. So. yes. Having more hounds most definitely helps allow you to make that charge and the pile in for the enemy generally happens first, THEN the Kroot. So your hounds will allow an average of 19" threat, plus the 6" of pileines that should hlp a lot more of the Kroot get in there.

Nw notice...please please notice... that I did not ever say you must do this every game to win, nor that you WOULD WANT to do it EVERY game. What I said was: it allows it.

Im not really interested in another big discussion on whether someone THINKS it's useful enough. I was just answering the question on why I have more than one.

Didn't ever say you where always doing it so please please notice im not trying to argue. im stating that your turn 1 justification makes nearly no sense as its unreliable at best. and that if your talking about infiltrating then waiting for your next turn then that's not really turn 1 now is it?

and i would like the link to that other thread so i can read the full discussion.

Well, for what it's worth my optimal units for markerlights would be;

6 pathfinders
or
3 firesight marksmen with drones
or
9 marker drones
or
4 drones with buff commander

Why? Because 3 markerlight tokens lets a riptide fire at BS 6. It can also do ignore cover and +1 BS, or +1 bs for 3 units (I tend to run 3 units of fire warriors and put each suit in a separate squad).

Just my take on things.

 Savageconvoy wrote:
I'm sorry that I didn't assume every model is BS5 without it being mentioned. I'm sorry that when you said it was done without markers, that I didn't assume you used markers.

Regardless, you're proposing a 190 point unit that is very fragile and needs another support unit to boost it. Your math initially gives the impression that it's getting over 13 wounds without support, then prompted you mention that you gave them two markerlights, which is a huge modifier. When you factor in the saves on top of that, it gives a more truthful image of how damaging this 190 point unit is. The actual damage output with no support is 2.87 unsaved wounds, with support it becomes 4.85 against standard marines. Compare that to a much more survivable suit squad with dual plasma, which can pump out 3.33 unsaved wounds against MEQ at half range without any support while being 38 points cheaper. Doing the math it would take about 30 bolter shots to take down the entire pathfinder unit, while it takes 18 bolters to take down one crisis suit.

Never said it was done without markers. Ever. I just said the Pathfinders didn't fire them.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

MilkmanAl wrote:

I know you claim to have a ton of success with it, but this is pretty close to a dream list...for your opponent. Substitute some Vespids for the Riptides, and you'd be all set!

And I hope that my opponents continue to feel that way. I'll have yet another chance to experience their "joy" on Saturday, as i am going to a tourney.

Current record: 16-3-1

I imagine they will be dreaming. Whether its before or after I knock them out is another story. Ha ha! That was fun to say.

But seriously. I'm not really thinking this is the place for a list discussion. The question was: what shines in this book. I'm telling you that Pathfinders do. I said why. I DO like the Kroot hounds as well, though "shining" is probably a REAL strong word for how I feel. closer to the mark might be "useful".

I always attempt for 5 markers on a Riptide or Ionhead just for the BS6 gets hot re-roll and ignoring cover, but I was also having a very bad run of rolling 10+ for scatter.

I personally use commander with two drones and tossed into a marker drone unit. 6 BS5 markers, 5 tokens, one fully buffed Riptide or Ionhead. I plan on running two of those, with two Riptides, and two Railgun hammerheads and seeing how that pans out.

That's a reasonable plan. More is usually better. In my "semi competitive" list where I just take what seems more effective rather than what I think might be fun to play that day I have 2 squads of 8 pathfinders and a commander with 6 marker drones. Unfortunately I'm always tempted to just shoot the pathfinders pulse weapons once enemies get close since my ethereal gives them so many shots (enemies will get close. my opponents have an unhealthy love for deep striking, interceptor is a wonderful thing).

 Savageconvoy wrote:
I always attempt for 5 markers on a Riptide or Ionhead just for the BS6 gets hot re-roll and ignoring cover, but I was also having a very bad run of rolling 10+ for scatter.

I personally use commander with two drones and tossed into a marker drone unit. 6 BS5 markers, 5 tokens, one fully buffed Riptide or Ionhead. I plan on running two of those, with two Riptides, and two Railgun hammerheads and seeing how that pans out.

another option is to take body guards with target locks + missile pods and double m drones each. it provides extra shooting and up to 6 marker drones which is good enough for most applications. Add in the forgeworld marker light suit on the HQ then that's 7 hits at BS 5 which is more than enough for a riptide. better yet add in a support suit and have reroll to hits if you really want.

 Desubot wrote:

another option is to take body guards with target locks + missile pods and double m drones each. it provides extra shooting and up to 6 marker drones which is good enough for most applications. Add in the forgeworld marker light suit on the HQ then that's 7 hits at BS 5 which is more than enough for a riptide. better yet add in a support suit and have reroll to hits if you really want.

I'm no expert, but in my opinion that formation might run into problems with "points vs effectiveness".

I try to make everything in my army cheap, simple, and with multiple layers of redundancy. It's why every one of my crisis/broadside suits is in a separate squad (probably just a holdover habit form the last codex I haven't broken yet).

My friend tried getting me to try out the commander + bodyguards + 6 marker drones. I found it a bit confusing for how I play.
It runs down like this.
I shoot this unit first before other units, getting 12 missiles and 6 markers at two units. No need to buff it, most weapons are BS5. Rolling missiles I get reliable hits from the commander and about 50% from the bodyguards, which really makes me think I could have saved 10 points with twin-linked m.pods instead.

I try to run them as units that either don't need support and units that could use support.
Riptides could use support, because 4 shots that wound TEQ on 2+ and ignore armor at 24" is decent on a BS3 MC and the blast can be worth the risk thanks to blasts being auto-hits.
Kroot could use support. I can either outflank and hope for volume of fire or try to sniper down MC depending on the lists. Markers just help the unit out, but aren't really required. I use markers with them if it's suitable, but never really plan on it.
Crisis suits with multiple weapons could always use a BS boost, since it means more hits with their volume of fire. Without markers they still perform good, but they really could use them thanks to their potential.
Marker drones plus missile commander don't need support. They are BS5, markers don't give saves, and AP4 really won't be a factor for the missile pods a majority of the time.
When I combine the suits with Volume of Fire and a unit that doesn't need support I tend to not get what I want from the unit.

Hey, got a very n00b question here but i cant seem to find the points costs for the crisis suit weapons and systems.... i found the actual list for them but not the costs, can someone help me with the page #?

 Somedude593 wrote:
Hey, got a very n00b question here but i cant seem to find the points costs for the crisis suit weapons and systems.... i found the actual list for them but not the costs, can someone help me with the page #?

95.

@wombat. iv tried varriations of that and it works fine. its expensive but the extra double missile pods helped as i needed more anti light tanks. for 10 points extra each i got more room for one more riptide.

thanks

There is no reason to have 6 marker drones in a command squad. You want to have drones in the unit for the wounds but 6 bs5 marker hits is overkill because you will be shooting at a unit that should already be pretty much dead thanks to your command squad. In truth you only need 2 makerdrones in that unit. The reason being is you are really only going to use those marker lights on firewarriors/kroot to mop up those last few guys. Those 4 extra gun drones are going to kill 1.72 more MEQs and force a pinning check.

The way I see markerlights, you only "need" to remove cover if you have an ap3 or lower weapon. At ap4 or higher chances are removing cover won't matter too much. So firewarriors, kroot, broadsides w/ missile drones, etc only need 2 markerlights to increase their bs to 5. If your weapon is ap 2/3 large blast (like riptides or hammerheads) then you only need 2 marker lights to remove cover. Increasing bs is nice but largely not needed. Crisis suits tend to need the most marker lights, needing at least 2 to remove cover (or that plasma goes to waste) and any extra markerlights are just a bonus.

I like to run a unit of 6 pathfinders for my riptides, a unit of 8 pathfinders for my crisis suits and a unit of 2 marker drones in my crisis suits for my firewarriors. Since I have an open heavy slot I would like to try 3 sniper drones and 3 markers they may replace my 6 pathfinders for my riptide.

 lambsandlions wrote:
There is no reason to have 6 marker drones in a command squad. You want to have drones in the unit for the wounds but 6 bs5 marker hits is overkill because you will be shooting at a unit that should already be pretty much dead thanks to your command squad. In truth you only need 2 makerdrones in that unit. The reason being is you are really only going to use those marker lights on firewarriors/kroot to mop up those last few guys. Those 4 extra gun drones are going to kill 1.72 more MEQs and force a pinning check.

I think I'm missing some context here. I already explained why I bring 6 drones, to get 5 tokens to buff one Riptide. The commander or command squads will always have target locks so they can fire at a separate unit, that way you weaken one and light another one up so a Riptide can take it down in one shot. There are plenty of reasons to bring BS5 markers and it's very hard to ever bring too many especially with the increased number of Gets Hot weapons and low AP blasts.

The way I see markerlights, you only "need" to remove cover if you have an ap3 or lower weapon. At ap4 or higher chances are removing cover won't matter too much. So firewarriors, kroot, broadsides w/ missile drones, etc only need 2 markerlights to increase their bs to 5. If your weapon is ap 2/3 large blast (like riptides or hammerheads) then you only need 2 marker lights to remove cover. Increasing bs is nice but largely not needed. Crisis suits tend to need the most marker lights, needing at least 2 to remove cover (or that plasma goes to waste) and any extra markerlights are just a bonus.

Again, Riptides and Ionheads do benefit from having a higher BS. BS6 allows them to re-roll gets hot and having a higher BS means they have to roll a higher number in order to completely miss the target. Suits also benefit since they go from 50% accuracy to 66% or 83% with a few more. Is it required? Not really. But it does increase the quality of shooting and makes one unit far more effective.

I'm kinda shocked we haven't had much talk on Piranha squads.

One might not be much, but a squad of five could put some hurt down if left alone, And if you're opponent shoots at the Piranhas instead of, oh say.... Crisis suits, Fire Warriors, Various Markerlight sources, Then the Piranhas are doing their job.

And a free squad of Gun Drones doesn't hurt.

 Iur_tae_mont wrote:
I'm kinda shocked we haven't had much talk on Piranha squads.

One might not be much, but a squad of five could put some hurt down if left alone, And if you're opponent shoots at the Piranhas instead of, oh say.... Crisis suits, Fire Warriors, Various Markerlight sources, Then the Piranhas are doing their job.

And a free squad of Gun Drones doesn't hurt.

I have always wanted to run piranhas, but that and the sky-ray are the two units in the codex I have never fielded (I've even brought vespds along for the lulz a few times, but that was old codex).

My main issue with them is that they are a fast attack choice. So many cool things in the tau army end up forced into fast attack (XV9 suits...really? They should have been made an option for your bodyguard if you ask me).

My fast attack in "fun" lists usually looks like "2x units with markerlights, 1x other unit that looks fun or useful (outflanking rail pathfidners with darkstrider and recon drone, barracuda, XV9 suits)". At some point I will have to sit down and crunch numbers on expected kill returns with markerlight boosts vs just slapping another unit on the table. But I don't want to think that hard about toy soldiers

If only I had the opportunity to play more games, I could test random lists to see how all these other units do. As it is I only get to play rarely, so all my lists look pretty similar.

Coyote81 wrote:

 Jancoran wrote:

The build is 181 points (I think?).

So really when you're dishing out that kinda hurt... Vs T4:
I do 1.77 wounds with the Recon Drone
I do 4.16 wounds with the Railrifles
I do 4.44 wounds with the Carbines
I do 2.81 wounds with the Devilfish+Drones (if you wanna count it)

Against T3, its just...naughty.

What's kind of math are you using?

1. You think or you know it is 181. It doesn't matter what you think

2. I don't care how many wounds you cause, I care how many they don't save. 13 wounds is about 4 dead marines. 48 points from a squad you THINK is 181.

For the price of 70 more, I can take an XV8 unit and be almost assured to kill that tactical marine squad. That's with no markerlight support.

You're using a support unit as an anti infantry in a codex that puts out a humongous amount of anti infantry firepower. For 10 more, you can take a broadside team that puts out higher strength firepower, more of it, and has a save of 2+.

Who the feth cares how you do against T3? Guardsmen can deal with T3.