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 Mr Morden wrote:


Thanks - that all sounds good - female Commissars and Stormtroopers appear reasonably often in the BL novels - so not ruling them out in the Codex is good. Interesting about the female scions of great Faith going to the Sororitas

re the Black Templars - in the BRB they have a separate line in the Allies Matric but following C:SM this was removed in subsequent codexes (which is much more in tune with the fluff) but some people still think that they have their own (flawed) matrix line but the evidence is very heavily against this with the lack of presence in the Codexes.

What's so interesting about that? The Sororitas exclusively recruit from the Schola Progenium, so it's pretty much a given that the female scions of great Faith would go to the Sororitas, because where else would they get recruits? :p

There used to be a female Commissar model. The only problem I see with the idea of female Commissars is... well, why didn't they go into the Sororitas? Did they fail out at the last hurdle on bolter drill? Are they a bit too arrogant compared to their faithfulness? What?

Sorry I haven't got the new codex and thought Scions referred to "graduates" of the Schola not just those who are attended...

I think Sororitas and Commissars are different enough to mean that some are funnelled into each? Not all those who enter the Sisterhood are exclusively martial if they go to the non militant Orders.

A Commissar is by its very nature a position suited to a strong minded individual - its a pretty lonely job for most - whereas the Sororitas is a Sisterhood in every sense (good and bad )

Damn allies chart, so much for my lost and damned Stormtroopers.

 Furyou Miko wrote:


There used to be a female Commissar model. The only problem I see with the idea of female Commissars is... well, why didn't they go into the Sororitas? Did they fail out at the last hurdle on bolter drill? Are they a bit too arrogant compared to their faithfulness? What?

I think it's more that the final test for a Commissar is often to kill their closest friend at the Schola. For no more reason than they are told to do so. I have a feeling those women who have the talent and the faith, but require an actual reason provided to kill a fellow sister, would be the ones who join the Sister-hood. Whilst those who can kill their comrades for the simple reason that they are told it is what needs to be done, go on to be trained as Commissars.

Edit: To add the fact that the students are not told what the tests mean about them. They find out in a single grand graduation ceremony what their role is, by being shipped out to the locale with no chance to look back or celebrate with what friends they made.

I have not heard that before - where is it from?

Mr Morden wrote:Sorry I haven't got the new codex and thought Scions referred to "graduates" of the Schola not just those who are attended...

I think Sororitas and Commissars are different enough to mean that some are funnelled into each? Not all those who enter the Sisterhood are exclusively martial if they go to the non militant Orders.

A Commissar is by its very nature a position suited to a strong minded individual - its a pretty lonely job for most - whereas the Sororitas is a Sisterhood in every sense (good and bad )

The Schola isn't just a school, it's an orphanage. You graduate... or you die as a child. Although I guess that the Sororitas are taken by travelling Famulous at whatever age rather than some arbritary adulthood determined by the Schola kind of makes your comment make sense. I see that more as graduating early though.

shenshinoman wrote:
I think it's more that the final test for a Commissar is often to kill their closest friend at the Schola. For no more reason than they are told to do so. I have a feeling those women who have the talent and the faith, but require an actual reason provided to kill a fellow sister, would be the ones who join the Sister-hood. Whilst those who can kill their comrades for the simple reason that they are told it is what needs to be done, go on to be trained as Commissars.

Edit: To add the fact that the students are not told what the tests mean about them. They find out in a single grand graduation ceremony what their role is, by being shipped out to the locale with no chance to look back or celebrate with what friends they made.

Wait, what? Commissars have to kill their best friend? Where does that come from? What is this, some eighties Japanese movie about assassins?

 Furyou Miko wrote:

Mr Morden wrote:Sorry I haven't got the new codex and thought Scions referred to "graduates" of the Schola not just those who are attended...

I think Sororitas and Commissars are different enough to mean that some are funnelled into each? Not all those who enter the Sisterhood are exclusively martial if they go to the non militant Orders.

A Commissar is by its very nature a position suited to a strong minded individual - its a pretty lonely job for most - whereas the Sororitas is a Sisterhood in every sense (good and bad ) /quote]

The Schola isn't just a school, it's an orphanage. You graduate... or you die as a child. Although I guess that the Sororitas are taken by travelling Famulous at whatever age rather than some arbritary adulthood determined by the Schola kind of makes your comment make sense. I see that more as graduating early though.

Yeah I get that - but it is a little vague about how and at what age you join the Sororitas - I do like the idea that they would keep an eye on the Schola to take those who would be most suitable, even if this is later than usual? It also ties into - do the Sisterhood take and mould their recruits or are they already predestined to take that path - depends on how you see their Faith and its relationship to Him I guess?

So is everyone who is either attending or has graduated a Scion?

Basically, you are selected for the Sororitas when a Sister Famulous or other agent qualified to recruit for the Sororitas - for example, a Canoness Errant - finds you while visiting your Schola. The Famulous will either take you with her on her circuit until she returns to Terra or Ophelia (depending on where she's based), or earmark you for later if you're too young.

Conjecture: A Famulous at the start of a six year circuit might take a 6-year-old girl and begin her training, because by the time she returns to her home base, the girl will be twelve and suitable for recruitment. If she's at the end of her six year circuit, she's more likely to leave the progena in situ and have a note put on her file to prime her for Sororitas selection.

Now, the Scions are a 'new thing', but I would say so - if Sisters are labelled as Scions, as well as Commissars and Stormtroopers, then yes, I suspect that Scion is just a catchall phrase - a new, hip version of 'Progena' that makes them sound less like some kind of unpleasant genital complication. Since 40k uses Psykers, the usual confusion with Psion isn't really an issue.

Thanks - that's helpful and interesting stuff that I can use

This book could have been a good chance to have reintroduced Commisar training squads. Those were fun units to run back in the days of first edition.

Does it say anything about allies? Can you ally with the New guard codex?

It says "all Armies of the Imperium" as BB.

 Furyou Miko wrote:


Wait, what? Commissars have to kill their best friend? Where does that come from? What is this, some eighties Japanese movie about assassins?

It's in the new codex fluff, as a way to test if a potential Commissar has the stuff to kill a comrade, regardless of rank or past comraderie, if they are found wanting.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Shingen wrote:
Does it say anything about allies? Can you ally with the New guard codex?

check out the first page, i have a second post where i answer the allies question more thuroughly.

 Furyou Miko wrote:

Now, the Scions are a 'new thing', but I would say so - if Sisters are labelled as Scions, as well as Commissars and Stormtroopers, then yes, I suspect that Scion is just a catchall phrase - a new, hip version of 'Progena' that makes them sound less like some kind of unpleasant genital complication. Since 40k uses Psykers, the usual confusion with Psion isn't really an issue.

Or perhaps they're using the real life defintion of the word scion instead of an imaginary word.

 Ghaz wrote:
scion instead of an imaginary word.

Well... yes. If scion wasn't a real word, nobody would ever get it confused with psion, and psion would never have been coined, since it's a pun on scion and psychic in the first place.

Seriously, though, you're trying to say you're smarter than me by pointing out that GW is switching from a made up word to a real word, when they just went from Imperial Guard to Astra Militarum?

We know why they went from Imperial Guard to Astra Militarum though. Its because they can copyright Astra Militarum whereas they would have difficulty copyrighting Imperial Guard. Seriously, sometimes a duck is just a duck.

Why are you trying to pick a fight with me?

Why is astra militarum easier to trade mark ,then Imperial Guard?

Makumba wrote:
Why is astra militarum easier to trade mark ,then Imperial Guard?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Imperial_Guard

Because the name literally cannot be copyright protected.

astra militarum in that usage and configuration is, well, original.

And star military/soldiers in latin can ? Then why does GW have problems , if people try to sell addons or stand ins for their models and name them "kosmiczni komandosi" , which is space marines in Polish. And studios have to come up with stupid names like celitic space warrior .

Sure. Is there a historical "astra militarum"? Nope that exact arrangement of words is not a historic group of soldiers and presumably is not trademarked. Just like Nike the Greek goddess worked for Nike the sneaker and Volkswagen the car company which is German "people's car", etc. In fact practically all brands and slogans are common words in one language or another arranged in a way that is not historically common usage...except for Haagen Dazs...which was made to sound Danish?

You will notice that GW could not protect Space Marine as a trademarked name and has repeatedly tried but failed throughout the world. Studios actively creating derivative names to get around Space Marine are just trying to avoid the harassment not because GW has a legal leg to stand on.

Now if someone is foolish enough to name their new soldier model astra militarum GW actually has some sort of case.

 Ghaz wrote:
We know why they went from Imperial Guard to Astra Militarum though. Its because they can copyright Astra Militarum whereas they would have difficulty copyrighting Imperial Guard. Seriously, sometimes a duck is just a duck.

Well I'd like to believe that, since I think "Astra Millitarum" is stupid and they shouldn't have changed it at all. I also think their paint renaming was stupid and unnessesary, since the colour itself isn't actually protectable in the way that models/rulebooks are. But they did just release Imperial Knights, which is about as generic as it comes. I'll reserve judgement until the next codex, which iirc should be orks. That's also very generic, but they could rename it Codex: GreenSkins(tm) or something.

KommissarKarl wrote:

Well I'd like to believe that, since I think "Astra Millitarum" is stupid and they shouldn't have changed it at all. I also think their paint renaming was stupid and unnessesary, since the colour itself isn't actually protectable in the way that models/rulebooks are. But they did just release Imperial Knights, which is about as generic as it comes. I'll reserve judgement until the next codex, which iirc should be orks. That's also very generic, but they could rename it Codex: GreenSkins(tm) or something.

actually, in most fantasy writing orcs are spelled with a c. which means, as the name is intentionally mispelled, they may be able to TM it. (the legal reqs involve it being 30% different from standard usage. which ork is 30% different than orc.)

I look on new Storm Troopers... Tempestus Scions, I mean ... and can't decide if the changes are good. Just couple of thoughts.

Nice point (base 15/full 35) discount will allow to field more of them. On the other hand, they've lost HS pistols, which means no shot before assault and one close combat attack less. They weren't terrific in 'storming' back in 5ed, nowadays - even less, with addition of overwatch, and cuting in half HS lasgun range while RF (instead of 12"-ing). Addition of HS Volley Gun (cost equivalent of melta) suggest even more stationary approach - once they've dropped near target, they fight to the end. Good for them is addition of intrinsic MTC - this almost eliminates deployment losses.

In place of Special Operations - new orders system emerged. This nicely improves versatility, but you may have not enough 'Command Power' in Militarum Tempestus Codex - as primary detachment - max. 2 orders/turn. Tempestus' dedicated transport - Taurox Prime - also lacks something. Maybe it may inflict some punch (BS4, fast), but is far more expensive with proper gun-fitting than equivalent Chimera, and front AV 11 must be misunderstanding. This brings a question - why I would field Tempestus Scions as a primary or even allied detachment while playing Imperial Guard (ehm, Astra Militarum, that is Within new IG codex I have everything from Militarum Tempestus, with addition of more officers, more orders (maybe little weaker, but very useful as well), dedicated Chimeras, Valkyries (sadly, at 125 pts). You can field 50% more (as Elites): 3 Tempestus Command Squads and 9 Troopers Squads (in comparison to Scions codex: 2 HQ, 6 Troops). Still, there're non-IG players on IGMB as well

Another inconsequence I find in difference between Lord Comissar Leadership blob (Ldr 10, 6" radius) and Tempestor Prime Leadership blob (Ldr 9, 18"). Good thing is that it affects whole army, in opposite regular IG (Tempestor Platoons don't cooperate within IG).

Somehow I find, that Veterans got more love again Cost drop by 10 (krak grenades are optional now), addition of *VERY* cheap heavy flamer (in place of one SW however), newly prices doctrines (carapaces for half of its original cost, camo-cloaks for a third, and demolitions still make them far better hull-rippers than tempestors). I'm very interested how Tempestors look in comparison with new edition of Elysian forces.

Makumba wrote:
And star military/soldiers in latin can ? Then why does GW have problems , if people try to sell addons or stand ins for their models and name them "kosmiczni komandosi" , which is space marines in Polish. And studios have to come up with stupid names like celitic space warrior .

Trademark more than copyright. Trademark only applies to products of similar type in a similar context with the same name or in such a way that would be confusing to customers. So you can't go out and create your own toy soldiers and call them Astra Whateverus without violating their trademark.

You can totally trademark common words.

GW could also trademark "Imperial Guard", but realistically they'd struggle to defend such a trademark because there are real life military units called "Imperial Guard".

FWIW, I noticed in the shops tonight on a can of drinking chocolate Cadbury has a trademark on the colour purple. That doesn't mean you can't use the colour purple, it just means you can't use the colour purple for the specific purpose of selling chocolate as it would confuse customers. If you do, then Cadbury lawyers would come out of the woodwork to defend the trademark.

@Soltari
Keep in mind the MT orders in their codex only work on and can only be issued by scions from the MT codex. Basically this is the real content of the codex; orders, warlord traits, and formations. That and you don't have to take regular AM troops and HQs to get your scions fix.

The funniest thing about the AM vs MT dexs is that you can take more scions in the AM dex in a single FOC than you can in the MT codex...weird, huh.

With exception of two assault orders (one giving Crusader and another Fleet), MT orders are much more sexy

Twin-linking, Preferred Enemy and Sniper squad give them so much punch. Rending vs MC/vehicles also may have some uses.

In comparison IG orders are not so powerful when issued on Scions. Split Fire, Shoot and Run, and Ignore Cover would be best.

Tank hunter and ignore cover are by far and away the most powerful orders. However getting them onto scions can be tricky.

Sniper is good against nids and CWE MC as they have 3+ armour. Monster hunter is better if you are within half range, it does more damage even with the hot shots.

Rending on a big unit of scions in rear armour is actually pretty good even with their Str3 weapons.