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Powerguy wrote:
Lol every UA Ret has is FA1, Halberdiers, Sentinels, MHSF, Riflemen UAs are all FA1 (and Infiltrators only have 3Eiryss..).

You're missing my point, probably because I didn't quote the post I was disagreing with but rather the post I was supporting.

The thing I had a problem with was that "a unit's role will change completely depending on what support pieces you brought." as written by AnomanderRake. Sounds like he was describing Menoth, to be honest. The blurb makes it sound like a specific unit can have it's role changed by more than one support model. From memory - and unfortunately I've let my Warmachine knowledge get even rustier - only the Arcanist can affect more than one specific unit in more than one specific way. It would be very interesting if the Houseguard Thane would function like hinted by Anomander and be able to give "see Stealth" out to anyone, but it is a specific unit type which benefits only, meaning he's essentially an attachment rather than a support piece.
The rest of his Retribution blurb also mostly/only described Rahn and units associated with Rahn - typically not stuff you'll get in other lists as a high priority.

But yes. I think my beloved elves have an identity crisis. It's most visible by the fact that no one ever recommending them to a new player who's looking for a faction with a play style. Now, it would be extremely interesting if they expanded on the technology/forcefield thing. Imagine if Destors and Dawnguard had a point of regenerating force field. Now that would be faction identity. (Disclaimer: not saying it would be balanced as is, just presenting a concept)

All humans must die.

P.S. sorry for sidetracking.

 Mahtamori wrote:

Powerguy wrote:
Lol every UA Ret has is FA1, Halberdiers, Sentinels, MHSF, Riflemen UAs are all FA1 (and Infiltrators only have 3Eiryss..).

You're missing my point, probably because I didn't quote the post I was disagreeing with but rather the post I was supporting.

But yes. I think my beloved elves have an identity crisis. It's most visible by the fact that no one ever recommending them to a new player who's looking for a faction with a play style. Now, it would be extremely interesting if they expanded on the technology/forcefield thing. Imagine if Destors and Dawnguard had a point of regenerating force field. Now that would be faction identity. (Disclaimer: not saying it would be balanced as is, just presenting a concept)

All humans must die.

P.S. sorry for sidetracking.

Yeah its hard to know, they are the only faction I play btw and still really enjoy playing them. They have some cool tech (heaps of blast damage immunity in the faction etc) and plenty of rules which give them character within the game, but I find it hard to convey that as an overall theme when describing them as a faction. Part of this is size of the faction, there are all these sub groups within Ret (Houseguard, Dawnguard, Mage Hunters, Shyeel, Vyre) and none of them are big enough to stand on their own yet. It seems like the most common way people get in to them is due to the aesthetic (usually of the infantry), or just the fact that they are elves.
Imo from a rules perspective it really shows that Ret were designed completely in Mk2, almost everything they have is very well balanced - if they have some massive game changing rules (i.e Strike Force) then they have a very obvious weakness.

Tbh Destors need something more than regenerating force fields to see play (although thinking about it a UA which granted Polarity Shield would be pretty interesting). The only thing I feel Dawnguard are missing at this point is access to Pathfinder, because Ret don't have access to the 'Pathfinder on a stick' solos.

 AnomanderRake wrote:

They don't have ranged utility, range-increasing buffs, ranged-oriented feats on warcasters, any way around Stealth, or ways to reliably scratch warjacks with guns to anywhere near the level Trolls, Cygnar, Mercs, Retribution, Legion, or even Khador do. "Not a ranged-oriented faction" doesn't mean you don't have good ranged units, even Circle has solid ranged capability, but the breadth of your selection is below-average and the ranged units can't handle a lot of targets. Exemplar Errants may have crossbows, but their primary role is in obstructing space and thwacking people because they're cheap small-based Weapon Masters.

In all seriousness, what is putting out more ranged firepower than a reckoner each turn? The list can be counted on one hand, and all of them are both more expensive and don't have the ability to operate in melee as well. The fact that it also performs in melee is what allows Menoth to have such a strong ranged presence: if they didn't have good melee, they wouldn't be taken. Because they do, they're getting this awesome ranged capacity 'for free.' Tack that onto flare, which gives some awesome ranged utility.

And I'd argue that the vanquisher is just fine for laying down templates against large numbers of targets, as is the repenter.

All this ignores the vassal, which is, again, one of the precious few ways in /any/ army to increase ranged damage. The combination of that and the choir is really, really strong.

2 Vanquishers and 2 Vassals are, frankly, ridiculously good.

For no focus expenditure, and a mere 21 points(factoring in 2 choir boys), you are putting out 4 Pow16 continuous fire AOE4s a turn. All at Ra7. 9 if you tagged something with a Reckoner earlier.

4 pow16s will put a dent in any heavy, and 2 of them can be boosted, and they delete infantry like nothing else.

Menoth doesn't have a lot of shooting options, but the ones we do have are quite effective.

 Grey Templar wrote:
Menoth doesn't have a lot of shooting options, but the ones we do have are quite effective.

You do realize I said Menoth didn't have a wide variety of options for a range-oriented force, right? I didn't impugn the effectiveness of their guns, I claimed they didn't have a lot of things to do with them.

Protectorate has 3 Rock-solid shooting 'Jacks (Vanquisher, Reckoner, Redeemer) , two other pretty solid ones (Judicator, Repenter) . They're got three solid shooting unit choices (Zealots, Idrians, Errants) and one situational one (Cleansers) their battle engine is a rock-solid shooter too.

Taken as a whole they can kill heavies, kill infantry, get around stealth, get around high DEF, even do some board control. Just about the only thing protectorate guns can't do well is deal with immunity: fire.

In fact, I don't think there is a dud in the lineup when it comes to Protectorate guns outside the deliverers. I'd say that puts them in the top half of factions in shooting variety.

The short answer for each faction aren't really accurate, and each faction has tons of versatility. Let me put it this way, when I played 40I exclusively, when you read about tournament players lists, there was only one that they tweaked... wm/h has so many options, most bit events involve three lists.... and all three lists will have a very different playstyle. And all three lists will be from the same faction. For example. You bring 3 warcasters to a tournament with cygnar, nemo 2, Caine 1 an d Haley 2. MeMO will have 4 heavy jacks and some support solos and a unit of 2 of infantry. Focus on buffing the crap out of the jacks and have them wreck face. Caine will run a bunch of infantry
(Some shooting some melee), and single beatstick heavy, the melee infantry and warjack take out things too heavy for the Caine and the shooters to deal with. Haley runs a combined arms force and brings a bit of everything, and makes it all better. While also dictating how the enemy comes at her...